Torch for plumbing

[kaffine]

Well I looks like I am going to be doing some copper plumbing and will also be doing copper air lines in my shop at some point. I will likely braze the airline. I will also likely be running lines for my AC system which will be brazed. I will be working in some tight spots. Any recomendations for torch? I don't mind spending some money on it as I will have plenty of uses for it. Thank you.

 

[rockchucker]

Just get a MAPP Gas Torch with a Piezzo Electricity lighting unit. I like to use the Yellow MAPP Gas Bottles. More heat with less time on.


http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/kits/torch-kits.aspx?prodid=TS99ZKC


This is the one I have use for years for multiple projects. Turn the gas on then light with a click and tune to the heat level desired. Very good for Copper Plumbing. Many other uses too.

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

I bought a plain old torch from Ace Hardware 20 years ago. Bernzomatic I think. It is not self igniting, just a basic model that came with a flint lighter. Still works fine and probably will outlast me.

 

[mobetta]

Turbo torch.

 

[Rudyjr]

Just get a MAPP Gas Torch with a Piezzo Electricity lighting unit. I like to use the Yellow MAPP Gas Bottles. More heat with less time on.


http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/kits/torch-kits.aspx?prodid=TS99ZKC


This is the one I have use for years for multiple projects. Turn the gas on then light with a click and tune to the heat level desired. Very good for Copper Plumbing. Many other uses too.

+1 This is what I have used for years as well.

 

[wbrian63]

HVAC tubing is generally silver-soldered, not lead-soldered. HVAC pressures are far higher than water.

I don't think MAPP gas is hot enough to silver solder - for that you really need Acetylene/Oxygen - at least that's what I've always seen HVAC guys use.

I think a lot of it has to do with the tip-type. MAPP gas is usually used with a large swirl-type tip. A/O usually involves a far smaller tip diameter, so the heat available is concentrated in a single small area.

A/O with a normal brazing tip is too hot and concentrated for sweating copper pipe. I think you could probably get by with a rosebud type tip OK.

Most professional plumbers I've seen have some sort of rig with a heating tip attached to a hose (or hoses). Uses the same sort of "turbo" swirling tip you see on MAPP gas torches. I think this is primarily for access (lot smaller than a nozzle on a tall MAPP canister), and probably what the hose is attached to has a lot higher volume - less stuff to lug around.

Seems to me I also read something about MAPP being phased out and replaced by something else. Don't know if the "something else" is compatible with MAPP nozzles.

Here's an article that is a review a Bernzomatic MAP-pro (the replacement for MAPP gas) torch kit. Bernzomatic is the manufacturer of the piezo-electric torch nozzle I use and love.

http://www.protoolreviews.com/reviews/plumbing/bernzomatic-bz9400qfk-quickfire-hand-torch

The new MAP-pro tanks are short and squat, where propane/MAPP tanks are tall and thin. It looks to provide a far more stable base - my MAPP torch is very tippy with the spark-lit tip on it. Of course, this may also be a marketing ploy - I don't know if the tank holds as much gas as the older style - it may be more expensive to use.

It's odd that according to most of what I've googled, MAPP is only about 200f hotter than propane. First-hand experience tells me propane is nearly impossible with 1/2" copper and I have no idea if you could ever get 3/4" copper to sweat with propane - I wouldn't even want to try.

 

[Cuda]

Regular solder for the air lines. I prefer tha Map Gas with the turbo torch and the auto lighter on it.
For HVAC silver solder is in order and I agree with Brian, oxy-act will be the best. It needs to be plenty hot for silver solder to take.

 

[speed bump]

Regular solder for the air lines. I prefer tha Map Gas with the turbo torch and the auto lighter on it.
For HVAC silver solder is in order and I agree with Brian, oxy-act will be the best. It needs to be plenty hot for silver solder to take.

For lines 3/4 and smaller straight acetylene is just fine with silver solder. 1" can be done it just takes a while.

My reccomendation would be to find a used acetylene torch for cheap (they can be had for $30 pretty easily) and get an acetylene tank for the duration of the project (I own a tank but last time I asked it was in the range of $30-50 for a long lease and acetylene). If you are going to do a lot of soldering I prefer using Sil-foss becuase its fluxless.

 

[csp]

HVAC is done with straight acetylene. A very good friend has been in the HVAC business for 30 years and I've helped him with dozens of lineset (AC lines) installs.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to DIY on them, because they have to be evacuated with a vacuum pump once installed. Most DIY don't have the right tools for this, even if they can silver solder the lines together.

 

[kaffine]

Thanks to all. I plan on brazing my air lines because I need the practice before I do AC lines. I would rather my air lines leak the the AC lines.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to DIY on them, because they have to be evacuated with a vacuum pump once installed. Most DIY don't have the right tools for this, even if they can silver solder the lines together.

I used to do auto AC I have an AC machine that can handle R-12, R-22, R-134 and R-410. I also have the vacuum pump and micron gauge. I will be taking a class to get my license for stationary refrigerant recovery.

 

[nexum1919]

I have the bernzomatic kit with the hose and instant start: BZ8250HTKC Trigger-Start Torch Kit. Comes with the belt holster and it has the 'burn tube holder' so you don't have to worry about the hot nozzle. It starts and stops instantly, you can also lock the trigger. You mentioned you'll be working in tight spots, i think kit is better than those ones that attach to the cylinder directly in terms of working in tight spots and awkward positions.

 

[tcianci]

I would check the temperature requirements for brazing, they may exceed the melting point of the copper itself. Like others have said, AC linesets are typically silver soldered and we used silver solder on nitrogen lines as well. Your air lines will be fine with typical silver bearing "soft solder" I have successfully soldered, silver soldered and brazed with your basic electronic start Bernz-O-Matic MAPP torch. Like any metal joining process, you need to be able to intorduce heat into the joint faster than it can dissipate in order for the temperature to rise and that is a function of the fuel, the rate that you burn the fuel and the mass of the object being heated. And for the record, you can solder 1/2 inch 3/4 and sometimes even larger copper just fine with an old propane torch, done it hundreds of times.

I think if I were to be buying anything new for soldering and brazing, it would be an electronic start, detached MAPP set up that fed from one of the new "squat bottles"

 

[Brandon_K]

The melting point of copper is nearly 1900F. The melting point of most silver solder is around ~450-550F. Typical brazing rod flows at ~1200-1500F.

It takes a lot of heat to melt copper. MAPP / Map Pro can do it, it just doesn't do it as quickly as Oxy / Acetylene