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Torque Device Question

ZiMMie

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Aug 30, 2009
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Ive got a few a questions regarding torquing the head down.
the device ill be using its a Snap ON QD2FR75
42385.JPG


My question is, will i have to add more torque if im using a 3/8 extension?

Ive asked a few co-workers plus ive seen them do head jobs they all say that with a 3/8 extension more torque is not required.

True Or False?

Ive read the snap on manual but it only gives a formula for using a crow foot nothing for a regular 3/8 extension.

thanks for reading
 
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krusty the clown

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you will lose some torque with an extension but it's minimal. there are some old threads around here that have the formula for correcting torque for an extension.
 

AdamMopar

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Ive got a few a questions regarding torquing the head down.
the device ill be using its a Snap ON QD2FR75
42385.JPG


My question is, will i have to add more torque if im using a 3/8 extension?

Ive asked a few co-workers plus ive seen them do head jobs they all say that with a 3/8 extension more torque is not required.

True Or False?

Ive read the snap on manual but it only gives a formula for using a crow foot nothing for a regular 3/8 extension.

thanks for reading

No correction is required for an extension. The torque is the same.
 

tcianci

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The torque you attain is a function of the tightness of the fastener and it doesn't make any difference if you are doing it through a Mack truck drive shaft or a soda straw
 

krusty the clown

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No you will not. There is no such correction, because there is no change in torque.

of course you will, but like i said it's MINIMAL. depending on the torsional twist of the extension you may not need to correct for it and using a wobble extension complicates it.
 

wreckercologist

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of course you will, but like i said it's MINIMAL. depending on the torsional twist of the extension you may not need to correct for it and using a wobble extension complicates it.

+1

Besides, most of the time a manufacturer calls out a "range" for the torque. Example:75-80 LBS. You have some wiggle room.
 

A_Pmech

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Oh no, not this again... :shocking:

Newton's Third Law!!!

"For every action there must be an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE reaction."

The reaction at the fastener must be equal to the reaction at the handle of the wrench, acting though the arm of said wrench.

Statically speaking, the torque into the extension must equal the torque out of the extension. There's no magic involved causing the extension to absorb torque.

:thumbup:
 
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dgarage

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True. You do not need to increase torque. And just so you know, if you ever attach a crow's foot to your wrench (or on an extension) if you face it 90 degrees to either side of the wrench you do not have to change the torque amount either.

I am a semi-retired A&P mechanic...
 

bimmer1980

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excellent point A_Pmech. The only different between the sizes of the extensions would be the torsional deflection. A person may see a slight amount of additional rotational degrees on the 3/8" as compared to the 1/2"

altho, technically, the torque of a bolt is rather an archaic method of measuring bolt tightness--a better way is to measure bolt stretch, but there is not always a good way to do that............
 

Joe69

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I agree that the difference is minimal. That being said, if you use an extension on an impact wrench, and it won't break the bolt loose, often times you can remove the extension and suddenly the bolt breaks loose with the same impact wrench. The same holds true from a deep well socket to a shallow one. I have seen this hundreds of times in my career. This tells me there is a difference. I never worry about correcting for a torque wrench, and have never had a problem.

Joe
 

dgarage

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Thank you A_Pmech.


You're correct Joe69. What you describe has to do with overcoming STATIC friction. The transfer of torque down the extension changes how the application of force is applied. Not the amount, just the how.
 

AdamMopar

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of course you will, but like i said it's MINIMAL. depending on the torsional twist of the extension you may not need to correct for it and using a wobble extension complicates it.

No, it doesn't. The torque in the extension is constand over the length. The angular deflextion has no impact on it.

The wobble extension is another topic.
 

Charles (in GA)

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I agree that the difference is minimal. That being said, if you use an extension on an impact wrench, and it won't break the bolt loose, often times you can remove the extension and suddenly the bolt breaks loose with the same impact wrench. The same holds true from a deep well socket to a shallow one. I have seen this hundreds of times in my career. This tells me there is a difference. I never worry about correcting for a torque wrench, and have never had a problem.

Joe

This is all due to the impact. Just the same way "Torque Sticks" work. The hit-release-hit-release of the impact allows anything in the path to absorb the impact. Exert a steady, non-impact pull on it, and the extensions or deep socket will make no difference.

Charles
 

Elroy

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If the extension turns then the input torque is NOT the same as the resisting torque. That's why the phucking thing turns because the forces are not balanced. And then when it comes to rest the torque is limited to the shear strength and/or polar moment of the extension.

If you're really interested in transferring maximum torque you would be well advised to stay away from small diameter or long extensions because they will twist and when they twist the forces are NOT balanced.

All this **** makes Elroy want to puke. It's really sad to hear some of these responses. It shows a total lack of understanding and waiving that stupid piece of paper around from your wallet doesn't change anything.

Elroy is not going to try and educate the world. There are too many fools.
 

A_Pmech

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I second the welcome dgarage but "floating"? I thought it was flying stuff for you guys... :beer:

:lol_hitti

Well, anything that flies is within the realm of expertise of an A&P, including Airships. That's definitely various states of "floating", I would say. Never worked on one, however. Although, I did gas up the Goodyear Blimp one afternoon. No, not lift gas, the liquid stuff.

:bounce:
 
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Torque1st

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This is the only kind of filling I do nowadays although after a few burritos I might fill a blimp...
 

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e-tek

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Oh no, not this again... :shocking:

Newton's Third Law!!!

"For every action there must be an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE reaction."

The reaction at the fastener must be equal to the reaction at the handle of the wrench, acting though the arm of said wrench.

Statically speaking, the torque into the extension must equal the torque out of the extension. There's no magic involved causing the extension to absorb torque.

:thumbup:

Time to review the Laws of Torque Absorption there Professor AP!

I'm with Elroy - it stands to reason that if the extension twists it IS ABSORBING torque - MAGIC? Only if you have no clue. Sheesh.
 

dgarage

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Thank you Torque1st.


There's always one on every forum huh? Lol.


My *other* piece of paper hangs on the wall and says Mechanical Engineering.
 
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A_Pmech

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Time to review the Laws of Torque Absorption there Professor AP!

I'm with Elroy - it stands to reason that if the extension twists it IS ABSORBING torque - MAGIC? Only if you have no clue. Sheesh.

Let me use an analogy...

You just caught a monster Catfish in the local creek. So, after unhooking it you decide to weigh it with your fish scale. But, it just so happens that your fish scale has a 10' rope attached between the scale and the hook you hang the fish from. When the fish is hung from the rope the rope stretches to some degree relative to the weight of the fish. However, the system eventually comes to equilibrium and ceases to displace. At this point, you take your reading.

Because the rope has stretched, does the scale indicate the fish to be lighter than it really is, or would otherwise be indicated if the rope was not between the scale and the fish?

Therein lies the answer to the "absorption of torque" by an extension.

If the extension twists, it is absorbing work, not torque. More specifically, it is changing work into other forms of energy according to the law of conservation of energy. Work is equal to the force (torque) times the distance (angular displacement).

Changing work into other forms of energy is how "torque sticks" used with impact guns work. They change varying degrees of work produced by the impact gun into heat, noise, and torsional vibration between pulses of the impact hammer. The impact gun is only capable of imparting a small change in angular displacement with each hit of the hammer(s) before it must release and reset itself for the next blow.

This limited range of motion allows the torque stick to limit the maximum static torque though torsion of the extension. Essentially, the torque stick acts as a torsion spring. By varying the stiffness of the extension, the slope of the stress/strain curve of the extension changes. It is the slope of this curve and the length of the extension that determines how fast torque builds relative to the finite angular displacement available from the impact gun. Strong springs have a high slope and build tension rapidly when pulled. Weak springs have a low slope and build tension slowly when pulled. In all cases, longer springs of the same section have a lower slope due to their greater length.

Since torque wrenches are generally not used over a finite angular displacement, the torsion of the extension is immaterial. If proper technique was used and the wrench clicks, the correct torque was applied.

:beer:
 
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Elroy

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If the extension twists, it is absorbing work, not torque. More specifically, it is changing work into other forms of energy according to the law of conservation of energy. Work is equal to the force (torque) times the distance (angular displacement).

You just don't get it.

Elroy is going to say it one more time and maybe this time it might sink in.

If the extension turns then the input torque is NOT the same as the resisting torque. That's why the phucking thing turns because the forces are not balanced.

Got it.
That's why the phucking thing turns because the forces are not balanced.

Your fishing scale analogy was static. Tensioning a bolt is dynamic.
 

Walkure

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Title: "High Performance Fasteners and Plumbing"
Author: Mike Mavrigian
Publisher: Penguin Group, 2008
ISBN: 1557885230, 9781557885234

Page 48- "Use of Adapters"

"As long as the adaptor (socket extension, etc.) is inline with the torque wrench drive, no compensation is required."

BOOM. DONE.
 

Eds_tls

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does an extension absorb torque: Yes

is it enough to matter: No

Steel twists, bends, stretches, just like rubber. Think how springs work

If your extension was made of rubber, would you get the right amount of torque to the fastener? no The rubber extension would twist exactly like a steel torsion bar. But just to a much greater degree

I work with fasteners and torque testing every day
 
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A_Pmech

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Title: "High Performance Fasteners and Plumbing"
Author: Mike Mavrigian
Publisher: Penguin Group, 2008
ISBN: 1557885230, 9781557885234

Page 48- "Use of Adapters"

"As long as the adaptor (socket extension, etc.) is inline with the torque wrench drive, no compensation is required."

BOOM. DONE.

Welcome to the board.

:beer:
 
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Walkure

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Zimmie asked when he started this thread:

"My question is, will i have to add more torque if im using a 3/8 extension?"

I cited a published authority who says "no."

Edit:
What else is there to say?
 
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catmech

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The great thing about a forum is the vast diveristy of knowledge and opinions, the bad thing about a forum^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. I agree with most on here that a torque wrench does not need an adjustment with an extension, I will also agree that that the extension needs to be as short and stout as possible, mostly cause I like them that way. Walkure has posted a reliable source, the snap on tool manual states that extensions with the wrench held 90 to the fastner are accurate http://buy1.snapon.com/PRODUCTS/TORQUE/pdf/techwrench/TECHWRENCH INTERNET SITE.pdf page 9. But what it really comes down to is the guy asking for the advice, if you feel that the extension will absorb torque see if you can get by without it. If you cannot do the job without an extension then ask yourself how the manufacture of the cylinder head you are installing intended it to be installed and did they publish reliable torque specs for the application knowing that an extension would be required? Is the absorption going to be so great that the final torque will not fall within the specification range the manufacturer published? I use a torque wrench several times a week, and I do use an extension when and if the task requires that I do so. I almost always set my wrench at the upper end of the specifiaction range, and if I use an adapter or extension on one fastner in the sequence then I use it on all in the sequence. Nice reference Walkure. Best of luck with your cylinder head.
 

doug.j

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Messages
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does an extension absorb torque: Yes

is it enough to matter: No

Steel twists, bends, stretches, just like rubber. Think how springs work

If your extension was made of rubber, would you get the right amount of torque to the fastener? no The rubber extension would twist exactly like a steel torsion bar. But just to a much greater degree

I work with fasteners and torque testing every day

We must be thinking about different problems. The input torque and output torque to a wet noodle be the same. Draw a free body diagram and then sum the forces.
 

nissan_crawler

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Time to review the Laws of Torque Absorption there Professor AP!

I'm with Elroy - it stands to reason that if the extension twists it IS ABSORBING torque - MAGIC? Only if you have no clue. Sheesh.

I disagree. The torque is still the same, you just have more deflection getting there.

take a 10' 4"dia, 1/8" wall tube and lift 40 lbs with it. It won't deflect. Now take a 10' 1" dia, 1/8" wall tube and lift 40 lbs with it. It will definitely deflect. Does that mean you don't have 40 lbs hanging off the end now? Of course not. However, you did have to lift the pole higher to lift the weight to the same height.

Technically, if you twisted your extension around 3x, and the torque wrench clicked off at 60 lbs, the fastener is at 60 lbs.
 

krusty the clown

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ok guy's.........

i went out to the shop and took a clicker torque wrench with a 1/2 to 3/8 adapter and a 24" extension and torqued a lugnut to 90lb-ft, THEN i took the same TW with a 1/2 drive deep socket and checked the torque. the lugnut moved SLIGHTLY...............


so does it affect torque.......yes
is it enough to matter..........no


for the torque applied to equal the torque output the fastener has to overcome friction.

i would guess that had i used a 24" 1/2 drive extension the torque applied would have been the same due to less torsional twist.


now i aint no college engineer and i do live in the ozarks but i ain't jed freaking clampett.
 

logical

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Get out your calculators...that wrench handle bends, and the socket twists (need the standard vs. deepwell socket conversion) and don't even think about all that business going on between the flats of the nut and the inside threads.
 

krusty the clown

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WOW, this discussion is pretty good and bad all at the same time. I will try to break this down since most of you are all saying the same thing. The main issue at hand is dynamics versus steady state... so here it goes:
If you have any motion (dynamics) in the system, then you can have an error induced in the fastener due to any relative compliance in the system (flex or twist in your tools). Since you will have energy stored in the system that may not get transferred, if the applied force it removed before the system comes to rest ( the torque stick example when used with an impact gun)
Once the system comes to rest (steady applied force with no motion) then the flex in the system no longer affects the applied torque versus the resultant torque (force at handle x moment arm = torque at nut).
Now with all that said, it is all academic since there is a very small possibility that you will be able to get to steady state or that you will flex the system enough to matter. So as a "rule of thumb" do not adjust your torque wrench setting for an extension. You really need to be more concerned about the lubrication you are using. Please follow the suggested torque with the suggested lubrication.
Cool discussion of theory versus application.

well said........
 
OP
Z

ZiMMie

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thanks a lot for all this knowledge guy.
Ive finish the head and the car its running amazing.

Great to have a forum full of all this smart brains I'm gonna try an pick all of them 1 by 1. :D
 
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