Torque Measuring inch pounds (Firearms)

[merlin1952]

What is everyone using to measure the torque (in inch pounds) when working on firearms? I've checked into the Wheeler and other FAT kits but they all seem to have horrible reviews. Not looking to break the back but looking for reasonable accuracy and convenience. Thanks,

 

[redwrench60]

Timely thread. A buddy of mine has a Lewis Machine Tool (LMT) AR type carbine with the quick swap barrel option. Two T-30 Torx cap screws and the barrel/gas block and gas tube assembly slide right out. Problem is when we went to reinstall the barrel using the LMT supplied torque wrench (more of a fixed torque tool) it wouldn't ever click so we stopped before we broke something and went to my work for my calibrated Snap On in.lb. clicker and put it right at the 140 in.lb. spec. Point is don't cheap out on critical torque specs on expensive parts. Get a Precision Instruments, a CDI, even a used name brand that you send off for calibration.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

I use a Armstrong click-type torque wrench. Also have a Tohnichi screwdriver for really small stuff.

 

[Balor]

I use a Snap-On Qdriver4 for my small inch Lbs. torques and regular Snap-On torque wrenches for all other torques, don't cheap out on torque wrenches when working on fire arms, you or your friends WILL GET HURT/DEAD.rngr1

 

[Sticky Grips]

I used the Wheeler Fat Wrench. Works fine for me.

 

[T45]

Out of curiousity, what is the exact (or approximate) range you are trying to cover?

 

[ryan20021982]

I don't use it much but I have a Neiko 3/8" inch pound that works good, I have a 3/8" snap-on foot pound one that I got later and have compared the Neiko the best I could with it and its right on.

Its this one Neiko 03713A
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MB53ZE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[scooternut]

On the assumption that we are dealing with small torque numbers here, gearwrench has a really nice MADE IN the USA beam inch pounder. This is what I use on my bicycle carbon fiber components, 1/4 drive. Nice tool. AT least was USA when I bought, 60 inch pounds as I recall, small tool,

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Going off of memory, I use a Utica TS-30 (maybe a TS-35?).

 

[Loscaldazar]

On the assumption that we are dealing with small torque numbers here, gearwrench has a really nice MADE IN the USA beam inch pounder. This is what I use on my bicycle carbon fiber components, 1/4 drive. Nice tool. AT least was USA when I bought, 60 inch pounds as I recall, small tool,

Gearwrench torque wrenches are no longer USA made. Now China (as most of the gearwrench line up has migrated to China)

EDIT: I'm an idiot and didn't read beam torque wrench in his comment, all micrometer torque wrenches are China now, unsure about beam

 

[bob15]

US made Seekonk torque wrenches are perfect for low torque applications.

 

[scooternut]

Gearwrench torque wrenches are no longer USA made. Now China (as most of the gearwrench line up has migrated to China)

Do you own a gearwrench 2955D torque wrench? Have you seen one in person that is not USA? curious as i have not, but Mine is 2-3 years old.

I have many gearwrench tools, all but THIS ONE were made overseas.



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[merlin1952]

A lot of great information so far. I personally have no experience with the Wheeler units but the few reviews I read were all bad. At this time I’m leaning towards a ¼ drive torque wrench and a decent set of bits but haven’t decided for sure yet. I see pros and cons of both the wrench type and screwdriver type. Thanks to everyone for the recommendations.

 

[JimRB]

I got a 1/4" Precision Instruments clicker torque wrench from Ebay a few months ago. A take off from Boeing or some other company. The wrench was in new condition and works great. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...nkw=precision+instruments+1/4+torque&_sacat=0

 

[Loscaldazar]

Do you own a gearwrench 2955D torque wrench? Have you seen one in person that is not USA? curious as i have not, but Mine is 2-3 years old.

I have many gearwrench tools, all but THIS ONE were made overseas.



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Ahh you're probably right- didn't realize GW had beam torque wrenches and didn't read your first post close enough to find that out. I'm an idiot sometimes.

Their micrometer (click type) torque wrenches have all gone to china. Unsure about their beam torque wrenches (which those look to be a Western Forge made unit, so same as SK actually).

 

[ssdave]

I've got the Brownells Tee handle torque screwdrive kit. No complaints. I also heard bad things about Wheeler, so I avoided it. I also have used my Proto and Snap-on torque wrenches, but they're not as handy as the driver type for most things.

The Brownells kit is expensive for the quality, like most Brownells stuff, and not top quality. But, I got it used from someone else at a good price, so it's worked for me. If I was buying new, I'd look at an industrial version of it, would be better quality for a similar price.

 

[velillen01]

I use the Wheelers Fat Wrench. Honestly theres never been anything on my firearms that have had to be exactly a set torque. Grips...meh half the time I don't even torque the screws. Scope rings...usually anywhere from 20-40in-pounds (I generally do 25-30). Hand guards, scope bases, ect all have a range and "close enough" works fine. The wheelers kit I found has a decent selection of bits but it is a 1/4" so I also have a better bit selection form another kit and ill use those most of the time.

Maybe if I was working on a benchrest rifle I'd use something else but so far the rifles all shoot better than I do

 

[Tenex]

http://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-...MhBhfUzuzmw7kx_o-MrKYyMaoWMiejWFGcaAi2S8P8HAQ

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

http://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-...MhBhfUzuzmw7kx_o-MrKYyMaoWMiejWFGcaAi2S8P8HAQ

I never understood the love for the Borka. Talk about a pain in the ***. It might be okay as a field tool, but for a shop environment I want a tool that I can adjust to whatever setting I want with ease. For what Brownells wants for that Borka kit you can get a real torque driver that isn't reliant on pre-determined settings.

 

[chris_1001]

I've worked on bench rest rifles for several years and really like the Wiha line of torque drivers. I found a driver style allows careful torqueing of very small fasteners, something important in order to protect the very thin blueing on screws, receivers, barrels, etc. I found the Wiha line to be accurate and very well made. Good luck.
Motoretro

This^, I bought one for all the keymod do-dads and scope screws etc. so far so good.

 

[kortik]

I never understood the love for the Borka. Talk about a pain in the ***. It might be okay as a field tool, but for a shop environment I want a tool that I can adjust to whatever setting I want with ease. For what Brownells wants for that Borka kit you can get a real torque driver that isn't reliant on pre-determined settings.

Current version of Borka Torque driver, including one that Brownells sells, has a user adjustable range from 10 to 85 inch-lbs., and comes with adjustment scales having marked 1 inch-lbs. intervals.

http://www.shooterstools.com/Pages/ATD/atdkits.html

 

[gte718p]

I don't do a lot of fire arms work, but bikes have a lot of fasteners with in/lb requirements. You can't beat wera's torque products.

Over torquing the screws on my carbon frame could easily be a $2k mistake. I trust Wera. If you have one torque that you need to do repeatedly they have preset drivers that are down right reasonable. The adjustable type clickers run about $100. A little expensive, but they are a one time purchase though.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Current version of Borka Torque driver, including one that Brownells sells, has a user adjustable range from 10 to 85 inch-lbs., and comes with adjustment scales having marked 1 inch-lbs. intervals.

http://www.shooterstools.com/Pages/ATD/atdkits.html

No offense, but it's still a pain in the *** compared to a standard torque driver used in numerous industries. I still think your tool is great for the field, but I really can't think of an advantage in a shop environment?

 

[kortik]

No offense, but it's still a pain in the *** compared to a standard torque driver used in numerous industries. I still think your tool is great for the field, but I really can't think of an advantage in a shop environment?

Our torque drivers are designed for use in the field, where small size, resistance to environmental factors and overall durability of tools are priorities.

I do respect your opinion, of course. On the other hand, we sell a lot of ATD-SBK kits, close to 50% of all kits, which are specifically tailored towards shop use, and it appears, based on this statistics, that our customers are likely do not feel too much "pain the ****". Until now, and since we started making our torque drivers, we had no returns because of reasons related to ergonomics.

However, I do agree with you that some of the conventional style torque tools are better suited for shop use just because they are considerably bigger in size. For field use, as you know, bigger is not better. So, it's an application driven design concept, which was not created to compete with everything available in the market place.

 

[kortik]

Well which is it, are you a salesman for the product or the owner of Shooterstools? It would have been nice if you had provided that information along with your first post in this thread so we could interpret and adjust any opinion or bias you may have accordingly. I just looked at your past posting history and noticed that you have only posted here one other time (two years ago) and it was also about your product and the Shooterstools site. People come here to discuss tools within a community atmosphere, not to hear sales pitches. There are other manufacturers and sellers on GJ who are welcomed, but they are welcomed because they tell us who they represent from the beginning and they contribute to the forum as a whole in ways beyond just pushing and/or advertising their products.

I tend to agree with Bigblue&Goldie. Your product might be useful in the field when you have to pack everything small and light, but in many ways your product is like a Leatherman tool. It has a place because of its' portability, but a Leatherman will never be as beneficial, comfortable, or user friendly as having all the individual full sized tools (that make up a Leatherman) sitting right in front of you. I mentioned previously that I personally use Seekonk torque screwdrivers, clicker torque wrenches, and beam torque wrenches. All are more accurate than the Borka tool's +/-4% accuracy level, and most are very bulletproof in terms of holding calibration over time. They are not something I would toss in a backpack though. Having said that, I would still most likely choose a small variable torque t-handle driver over your product, even for portable or backpack use. Less parts to lose and/or fiddle with.

1. It is our policy NOT to use public forums to promote our tools, which is often against the rules of the forums. For this reason, if you want to know more details about our products or the owner of the Borka Tools, visit our website and contact us directly with all the questions you may have.

2. It is our policy to always correct inaccurate information about our products, anywhere it is posted, including public forums. Having inaccurate information posted is detrimental to any business, including our business.

3. It was posted that Borka torque driver is not adjustable. Current version of Borka torque driver is fully adjustable. Prior to 2015, Borka torque driver was not adjustable, and had 12 pre-set torque values available to the user. Therefore, posted info was outdated, and obviously, had to be corrected.

4. It was posted that Borka torque driver is a "pain in the ****" to use. The fact is that our ACTUAL customers have never returned Borka Tools torque drivers because they felt "pain the ****" while using them.

Additional info: out of 12,000+ torque drivers sold in 6+ years, we had two early production drivers returned for warranty service because of the damages caused by the users. Related corrective actions were implemented in 2012-2013 to prevent similar issues.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

1. It is our policy NOT to use public forums to promote our tools, which is often against the rules of the forums. For this reason, if you want to know more details about our products or the owner of the Borka Tools, visit our website and contact us directly with all the questions you may have.

2. It is our policy to always correct inaccurate information about our products, anywhere it is posted, including public forums. Having inaccurate information posted is detrimental to any business, including our business.

3. It was posted that Borka torque driver is not adjustable. Current version of Borka torque driver is fully adjustable. Prior to 2015, Borka torque driver was not adjustable, and had 12 pre-set torque values available to the user. Therefore, posted info was outdated, and obviously, had to be corrected.
You got me here, I apologize. I didn't know you had changed it up. I like the new rendition much better than the old one.
4. It was posted that Borka torque driver is a "pain in the ****" to use. The fact is that our ACTUAL customers have never returned Borka Tools torque drivers because they felt "pain the ****" while using them.
Like I said, I think it's a good field tool, where there are willing compromises for size and mass. For shop use, I don't want to have to use a course tooth ratchet to tighten scope ring/mount screws, switch the bit to another tool, set the tool up for initial torque, and then reset the tool for final torque. With a standard torque driver I put the bit in, set initial torque, quickly screw down the fastener until it clicks, make a 4 second adjustment for final torque, and finish the job. Like others have said before, when I'm in the shop I'm not going to use a Leatherman when I can grab a set of pliers.
Additional info: out of 12,000+ torque drivers sold in 6+ years, we had two early production drivers returned for warranty service because of the damages caused by the users. Related corrective actions were implemented in 2012-2013 to prevent similar issues.

Just stating my opinion. I know plenty of people who own your tool and like it; I prefer the ease of use of a typical adjustable torque driver for shop use. No knock on quality, as I feel it's very well made.

 

[manwithtools]

I've worked on bench rest rifles for several years and really like the Wiha line of torque drivers. I found a driver style allows careful torqueing of very small fasteners, something important in order to protect the very thin blueing on screws, receivers, barrels, etc. I found the Wiha line to be accurate and very well made. If you're working with a barrel tensioner like on some of the older European target rifles, it's critical for consistent accuracy. Good luck.
Motoretro

Agreed^^. Whia's are great torque tools and very ergonomic. Not cheap though.

Edit: After looking at the prices of some of the others, the Whia's are very competitive price wise.

 

[HomeTheaterMan]

I feel like that went south quickly, however, I have no affiliation with Borka other than buying one of their torque wrenches and I love it. I have one of the original designs that I bought several years ago and it's great. It's quick and easy to use. I wouldn't say it's a pain in the **** at all. All you do is snap the bit in there and put the piece through the hole for whichever torque setting you want. It can't get much easier than that.

I had no idea that they now made an adjustable one. If they weren't so expensive I'd probably upgrade mine.

In the firearm industry they are come very highly recommended on most of the forums. I bought mine after reading tons of positive reviews on Snipers Hide. The rest of my torque wrenches are Snap On and I love them too, but I don't want something that big to work on my firearms. I'm constantly tossing my Borka in my range bag and using it at the range. It would be a pain to do that with a full size torque wrench. The only downside I can think of at all would be the price, but you're going to pay that for any quality torque wrench.

 

[merlin1952]

I do appreciate everyone’s suggestions. I ended up purchasing a Tekton ¼ inch drive torque wrench and a set of bits. It came with its own little case and is small enough to keep in my range bag. Only time will tell if I made the right decision but so far I'm happy with it. Thanks…

 

[HomeTheaterMan]

Thanks for the review, user input is what GJ is all about. If users on various forums are defending the Borka and saying it's easy to use, I can see there being three possible reasons for that. It is the best option in their harsh working conditions, they don't have much experience using multiple different styles of torque tools in order to make a correct judgment call, or maybe I am a bit confused as to how the Borka torque wrench operates. Assuming I am the one in err, the black side handle is the clicker part right? So that's the only part you can be torquing on with your hand. That black click handle is not aligned with the fitting you are trying to torque on, so that means you would need a second hand contact point pressing straight down on the round top knob in order to hold and align the Borka on the fitting. If you hold it anywhere else (or in any other way) the torque accuracy would be affected. To me it seems like a design that requires two hands (or at least a strange single hand position) to use accurately, whereas a regular screwdriver style or t-handle torque wrench can be operated easily and intuitively with one hand, which leaves your second hand free to hold or support the firearm. It also seems like the Borka design would be more likely to slip out of flathead screws accidentally during use because there is an increased likelihood of tipping the bit in the fitting during use due to the imbalanced geometry.

I just finished watching the Borka demonstration videos on their website. It looks like they hold it like a T-handle and use their thumb to push on the click handle. That hand position only works accurately if all 4 of your fingers aren't torquing, grabbing, or putting force anywhere on the Borka while your palm pushes down on the top knob and your thumb pushes on the clicker handle. I can see a Borka being better than a standard beam or clicker handle torque wrench for smaller screws, for wet conditions, and for portable use, but I still don't see how it would ever be as easy and intuitive to use as a simple single piece screwdriver or t-handle style adjustable torque wrench when the working environment is mostly free of mud and rain. The Borka does look like a nice tool for severe conditions, active military, and/or woods carry though.

I think you have the right idea. It does require two hands. You hold down on the "knob" with one hand and turn the handle with the other. I guess you could do it with one hand, but like you said, you would have to be careful you aren't pulling anywhere else. I never really thought of this as a downside since the other clicker style torque wrenches require two hands as well. I suppose this would be an advantage to a screwdriver style one, but when I looked at those it seemed like most of them were like the Wheeler Fat Wrench which got horrible reviews.

The size and design of it is nice for taking it out in the field as well. Overall, I really like it, but after reading your post I do see where a screwdriver style one may have a slight advantage if you could find a quality one (seems nearly impossible) and were only using it in the shop in conditions that were perfect.

The only advantage I see to a clicker style is that you can set it to any setting, not just the presets, but that seems to be possible with the Borka too. They would both require two hands, the Borka is lighter, smaller, easier to carry, and more durable if you're rough on it. You won't need to send it out for calibration after you drop it.

 

[merlin1952]

Jeremy, that is the torque wrench I purchased. I ordered it and a set of bits thru Home Depot and received it in two days. As for the 8 to 20 inch pound torque needs I’ll have to work out something for that at a later date. Needless to say this is an ongoing process for me. Thanks again to everyone for their input!

 

[HomeTheaterMan]

Jeremy, that is the torque wrench I purchased. I ordered it and a set of bits thru Home Depot and received it in two days. As for the 8 to 20 inch pound torque needs I’ll have to work out something for that at a later date. Needless to say this is an ongoing process for me. Thanks again to everyone for their input!

The problem with that torque wrench imo is that it doesn't go low enough for many things on a firearm. Things like scope base screws on a 10/22 or other aluminium receiver will strip out with 20 in. lbs. Unfortunately I learned this the hard way. The next issues is that even for things that it will work for, they will almost always been in the low range of that torque wrench, while they are normally the most accurate in the middle of the range. Hopefully it will work for what you're trying to do, but if you were planning on just using this for firearms, I think you're probably going to end up needing another torque wrench to accompany this one.

 

[kortik]

In regard to two hands being necessary to use Borka Tools torque driver, mentioned by somebody in this thread. This statement is absolutely incorrect, and for this reason, it is detrimental to our business, and we kindly ask the poster of this statement to delete or amend it. Our torque driver is designed for use by one hand only. If somebody decides to use two hands to apply tightening torque with use of our torque driver, we obviously have no control over other people's highly questionable "creativity". We do not endorse or approve any deviation from official user guide or approved instruction videos, mentioned, below. Again, only one hand is required to use our torque driver as it was designed to be used.

See videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShg...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWP...ature=youtu.be

These two videos are official video user guides for current Borka torque driver kits. Everything else, which may show things differently, should be completely ignored, regardless who shows it.

These videos and other related information are also posted on our website:

http://www.shooterstools.com/

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us directly, by e-mail to [email protected], or by phone call to 248-798-7621

 

[T45]

holy **** calm down

if you cannot win this argument simply with logic and a demonstration

something is wrong somewhere

this is the internet, not every opposing view gonna be deleted

better PR to keep calm and carry on.

 

[alex.bruns17]

In regard to two hands being necessary to use Borka Tools torque driver, mentioned by somebody in this thread. This statement is absolutely incorrect, and for this reason, it is detrimental to our business, and we kindly ask the poster of this statement to delete or amend it. Our torque driver is designed for use by one hand only. If somebody decides to use two hands to apply tightening torque with use of our torque driver, we obviously have no control over other people's highly questionable "creativity". We do not endorse or approve any deviation from official user guide or approved instruction videos, mentioned, below. Again, only one hand is required to use our torque driver as it was designed to be used.

See videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShg...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWP...ature=youtu.be

These two videos are official video user guides for current Borka torque driver kits. Everything else, which may show things differently, should be completely ignored, regardless who shows it.

These videos and other related information are also posted on our website:

http://www.shooterstools.com/

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us directly, by e-mail to [email protected], or by phone call to 248-798-7621

I personally have one used it alittle on some automotive electrical stuff I've built and I can tell you. it most definitely takes two hands to use. it is at most times odd and fiddley. but it is almost spot on it is a different type of tool but it does work. For my opinion as for what I've used it for its a lot easier and user friendly to buy alittle more user friendly one. still a good tool too have.


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[kortik]

I personally have one used it alittle on some automotive electrical stuff I've built and I can tell you. it most definitely takes two hands to use. it is at most times odd and fiddley. but it is almost spot on it is a different type of tool but it does work. For my opinion as for what I've used it for its a lot easier and user friendly to buy alittle more user friendly one. still a good tool too have.


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Using two hands is not what we recommend and demonstrate in referenced videos and user guide, and our tool was always intended for use with one hand only. As far as I know, a vast majority of our customers are not using two hands, and as a designer and manufacturer of this tool, which means I do know a couple of things about it, I never use two hands either...

Having said that, it's your individual choice, and if it works for you, I'm certainly O.K. with that as long as you're happy with the results. However, we, as a business, would rather prefer that all our customers follow our instructions on how to correctly hold and use our tool, with one hand only. It's not that difficult, as shown in referenced videos, and a lot more practical.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

 

[WVBrady]

See videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShg...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWP...ature=youtu.be
...

this video does not exist. sorry about that
this video does not exist. sorry about that

 

[OkRider]

I've got an old 1/4" drive NAPA beam type that's accurate. I know because I was the QC guy at work and calibrated all our torque wrenches on calibrated Seekonk torque calibrators. If that makes sense.

I use one hand to tighten and a finger or thumb on the opposite hand to keep the driver seated in the fastener so it doesn't slip out.

 

[MDK22]

As far as I know, a vast majority of our customers are not using two hands, and as a designer and manufacturer of this tool, which means I do know a couple of things about it, I never use two hands either...

If you are a designer and do not think people are going to use 2 hands for that design you are an idiot.

Being a technician I am an avid user of tools the way it is designed most if not all people would use 2 hands just by the way it looks. Palm on top and other hand to rotate. Why? because it is a hell of a lot more comfortable to grip it that way. It is actually quite sad you would believe otherwise. Also because of its design gripping with one hand most people would put there fingers on the cross bar and/or the incremental adjustment bar thus changing the torque so me as a technician would use 2 hands to prevent miss torque that is if i were to use a torque wrench at all (not likely unless doing competitive long range shooting)

Any double blind end user testing of 10 or more people would have proven this. Especially without packaging there.

Then you come on this forum and yell at potential customers. All of which are avid tool users whether they be cheap or expensive tools and proceed to tell us we are all wrong. The design is flawed from the get go. Probably to avoid having to pay expensive trademark or patent fees is why it was made this way.

I do believe sir that you and your company need to go back to the drawing board and If i was your boss you would be reprimanded or fired and I would apologize on this forum. Especially because it is the biggest and well known tool forum on the internet and we have people from all over he world. A lot who just read and rarely post. Why reprimand or fire?

After reading what you wrote I would never buy anything from your company because you are coming off as extremely hostile yet are supposed to be part of customer satisfaction/service. On top of which the links that you want us to look at do not even work which is even worse because it makes you look incompetent (even if you are not).

 

[MDK22]

Original poster just be ware you get what you pay for with torque wrenches especially. Please do not think that most posts here come from sales persons as they do not. A lot are collectors, older mechanics/technicians, and a lot of DIY guys.