Torque Wrenches - ??? mini splits

[motterpaul]

So, I am going to do an install of two non DYI Pioneer mini-splits.

I am ordering all the tools I need - but I need help on the torque wrenches. I understand it is ideal to have these but they are expensive, so I am trying to economize.

Most claw foot torque wrenches on eBay seem to come with only head, but I can't seem to find sets of different heads. What strategy should I use to acquire just what I need?

What sizes of torque wrenches do I need to do a Pioneer mini-split - and are they metric or inches? (Utica comes in A or B sizes, for example).

Is there a specific range of torque I need to look for?

What are the preferred brands of torque wrenches, looking for the handtool and probably a few interchangeable crowfoot heads (I assume)

OR - as an alternative. If I cannot get a torque wrench, how would you approach tightening the fittings with a regular wrench - what kind of "feel" should I try for?

 

[mike93lx]

If you have to ask if you need metric or standard, installing a mini split might not be for you.

You either have the specs or not, besides you can convert between the two measurements easily

There is no "feel" for something that needs to be precisely tightened

 

[motterpaul]

I have help for doing the install, but I need to buy the tools. I have never worked with torque wrenches before so its new to me and I asked a lot more questions besides the obvious one you drilled down on. Here is the installation manual and the specs are under section 3...

https://www.pdhvac.com/site/downloads/WYE_IM_3.pdf

It cites both metric and inches - but I just wondered what most people buy because in my experience they do not always automatically translate.

I admit, I am not familiar with specs like this and I am just asking for help. Especially the torque pressure - do torque wrenches come in specific ranges?

Or to put it more simply - educate me in torque wrenches for mini split installs. Sincere thanks for helpful answers.

 

[cvairwerks]

Looks like 400 inch pounds is the max torque and 132 is the lowest. It's going to be a pair of wrenches to cover this range and stay within the accuracy of the wrenches. Best bet is going to be a 1/4 drive, 50-200 inch pounds and a 3/8" drive, 10 to 80 foot pounds. NOTE:... The torque specifications given are in pound/feet inches....which is inch pounds, and NOT foot pounds....
I put that in bold and red, as it's way to easy to miss the units information, even by very experienced people. Seen it happen too often in the last couple of years at work, and these are highly experienced mechanics....

As to crows feet, just use standard ones and add an extension to clear the lines as necessary. It's not necessary to run the calculations for offset when using standard crows feet. Once you start using torque adapters and "Z" offsets greater in length than a standard crows foot, the calculations come into play. Here is a nice little web page I stumbled on for the calculations. Click on the box for what configuration you need and it pops up the formula and calculator.

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/renderers/torquewrench/wrench_formula_main_en.asp

 

[rok_hunter]

I disagree with the above postor.When I installed my mini split I didn't know ahead of time of the fittings where metric or SAE either and I do a lot of my own mechanical work, so if seeing in the future leaves me unqualified....well...[emoji1745]

You may be able to check the manual and see if it has any specs on the wrench sizes, I think I eventually found them in my MrCool manual.

As far as torque wrenches there are many auto parts stores that will rent you (for free or minimal cost, with a security deposit) the tools you need, so that may be an option. If you can bring the lineset with you you can either borrow or buy the appropriate sized crows feet.

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[Terry D]

I bought a Tekton 3/8 torque wrench, about 40.00 and a set of metric crows feet from harbor freight. Main thing when using this is to have the crows foot angled on the end, not straight out because that extends the length of the wrench and will give you a inaccurate reading. I agree, a hvac torque wrench, like yellowjacket, can be pricey. If i was going to use it every day, i probably would have broke down and spent more, but i thing this set up is just as good.

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[motterpaul]

Thanks all - I have some reading to do on Torque wrenches now, but research is a lot easier when you know what you are looking for.

I also appreciate the advice on what or where to rent, or on what specific wrenches or attachments to buy.

Terry D - did you mean to say NOT to use an extension, or that I should use an extension? Or maybe to use an angle (geeze, pls just tell me what to use, I didn't know there were so many ways to use a torque wrench).

Also - thanks CVairwerks for the inch/pounds tip, that was something I was wondering about.

 

[Terry D]

Thanks all - I have some reading to do on Torque wrenches now, but research is a lot easier when you know what you are looking for.

I also appreciate the advice on what or where to rent, or on what specific wrenches or attachments to buy.

Terry D - did you mean to say NOT to use an extension, or that I should use an extension? Or maybe to use an angle (geeze, pls just tell me what to use, I didn't know there were so many ways to use a torque wrench).

Also - thanks CVairwerks for the inch/pounds tip, that was something I was wondering about.

Extensions are ok. The crows foot needs to be at a right angle to the wrench. Not straight out. The wrench is calibrated to its exact length. If you put the crows foot coming out straight, you are extending the lenth of the wrench

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[brewchief]

I use a CPS black max torque wrench, the head is the same as a crescent wrench so it fits all sizes.

By far the vast majority of leaks in mini splits are at the flare joints, a quality flare tool and a torque wrench will greatly increase your chances of having a leak free install. FWIW I have several different flare tools and the only one that will consistently make a good flare is ghe CPS black max flare kit, it also comes with a go nogo gauge to verify the flare size.

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[motterpaul]

Yes, I am starting to see the benefits of a good torque wrench. Like you said, it is the most critical connection in the lineset.

I really appreciate the brand name suggestions from everyone. Thanks to Terry again for clarifying.

 

[Terry D]

I use a CPS black max torque wrench, the head is the same as a crescent wrench so it fits all sizes.

By far the vast majority of leaks in mini splits are at the flare joints, a quality flare tool and a torque wrench will greatly increase your chances of having a leak free install. FWIW I have several different flare tools and the only one that will consistently make a good flare is ghe CPS black max flare kit, it also comes with a go nogo gauge to verify the flare size.

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I totally agree, you be amazed how many flares are over tightened when not using a torque wrench. Another good flare tool is the yellowjacket eccentric flare tool

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[cvairwerks]

Actually, if you run the numbers, with a standard crows foot, the "B" measurement ends up changing the torque so little, it's insignificant. The difference between being at 90 degrees and straight with the handle falls well within the allowable torque range for every fastener or fitting out there, and it also falls within the calibration factor of the torque wrench, until you get into very accurate measuring situations. It's when you start using adapters that have significant offsets, or use torque wrenches with changeable heads, that it becomes necessary to do the calculations.

 

[ericm]

I'll probably be called a heretic for this but the $20 HF click type wrenches are sufficient for many purposes, most likely including this one. They often test to more accurate than their stated +- 5%.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/choosing-torque-wrench/

Just make sure you remove the tension on them before putting them away, or they will slowly lose accuracy.

 

[Terry D]

Actually, if you run the numbers, with a standard crows foot, the "B" measurement ends up changing the torque so little, it's insignificant. The difference between being at 90 degrees and straight with the handle falls well within the allowable torque range for every fastener or fitting out there, and it also falls within the calibration factor of the torque wrench, until you get into very accurate measuring situations. It's when you start using adapters that have significant offsets, or use torque wrenches with changeable heads, that it becomes necessary to do the calculations.

Good to know

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[motterpaul]

Here is a simple adjustment anyway -

 

[claymont]

Thanks all - I have some reading to do on Torque wrenches now, but research is a lot easier when you know what you are looking for.

I also appreciate the advice on what or where to rent, or on what specific wrenches or attachments to buy.

Terry D - did you mean to say NOT to use an extension, or that I should use an extension? Or maybe to use an angle (geeze, pls just tell me what to use, I didn't know there were so many ways to use a torque wrench).

Also - thanks CVairwerks for the inch/pounds tip, that was something I was wondering about.

What you want for the tube nut is a crows foot flare nut wrench like these:

7-piece-sae-crowfoot-flarenut-wrench-set-93137

You just have to figure out what sizes you need and buy those sizes. You can probably buy individual sizes on Ebay. Same goes for the torque wrench and the flaring tool. The best flaring tool I've used is a Ridgid like this:


RIDGID-459-45-DEGREE-NON-RATCHETING-SAE-TUBE-PIPE-FLARING-TOOL-


Product info:


ridgid-precision-non-ratcheting-flare-tool


This tool will burnish the flare ensuring the flare is smooth and concentric.
They make this tool in metric also.


If you make the flare properly, it will seal with a little more than hand tight. You really don't need to torque these fittings down. I've done quite a few and I never had a leak because it wasn't tightened to a spec. I was an industrial mechanic for decades, so I was comfortable with how tight I made things. They've leaked for other reasons, improper flare, damaged surfaces, misalignment, forgetfulness.

It's your system do as you please, just remember the proper flare is key; even though I've seen some pretty wonky flares seal. Read up on using a flare tool(or youtube) if you don't have enough experience doing them.

 

[motterpaul]

I did quite a bit of reserach on making flares. I was considering this eccentric flare maker from Amazon....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KHP982F/?tag=atomicindus08-20

It doesn't have the click stopper, but it is made to make a perfect sized 45-deg flare as long as you set it up correctly. Thoughts?

 

[Terry D]

I did quite a bit of reserach on making flares. I was considering this eccentric flare maker from Amazon....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KHP982F/?tag=atomicindus08-20

It doesn't have the click stopper, but it is made to make a perfect sized 45-deg flare as long as you set it up correctly. Thoughts?

Price seems to good to be true, i just paid a little over 100.00 for mine. Its a yellow jacket, sure most of it is for the name.

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[motterpaul]

I'm not a pro and would not pretend to be - but this did seem to be capable of making good flares if I get some practice in first. Watched a youtube on it. It is inexpensive, I just hope it isn't cheap, but that's why Amazon ships next day. Got to take advantage of my Prime Membership some times.

 

[Terry D]

I'm not a pro and would not pretend to be - but this did seem to be capable of making good flares if I get some practice in first. Watched a youtube on it. It is inexpensive, I just hope it isn't cheap, but that's why Amazon ships next day. Got to take advantage of my Prime Membership some times.

Let us know how it is

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[electroman187]

I bought a Doyle 10" adjustable wrench (pretty nice wrench BTW) and then cut a 3/8 square hole near the adjuster. I plan to use it with a regular 3/8 torque wrench.

 

[Jim greengo]

I just snug things up with a crescent wrench.

 

[jjrbus]

I watched the online sales places, CL and such. Bought the Daikin mini split install kit brand new for $300 off Ebay. Would be an easy sell after I am done with it. Thats funny, hope the wife gets a good buck for it at the estate sale.

Contains the flair gauge a must have, close enough is not close enough with 600 psi. DACA-FSG-1 Flare Size Gauge

http://knoppix.net/store/Daikin-Mini-split-Tool-Kit-New_132472225803.html

 

[motterpaul]

I just wanted to drop an update to this thread. We finally got the first install done yesterday. My friend brought over a 3/8" torque wrench (rathchet type) and I bought some claw foot adaptors for it.

The funny thing they don't mention in the manual is the OUTSIDE dimensions of the flare nuts, which for my Pioneer were 15/16 and 5/8. I had a hard time finding a set with 15/16 but Amazon got me a set delivered by 11:00 the next day.

We spent several hours practicing torqueing down flares before we did our install and ran into several challenges; twisting copper, flares pulling out. We eventually put that down to the tests being on old copper. Once we got to the point where we had done several good connections (inspected by taking them apart) in a row we did the install.

We did our torqueing in stages, 5, 8, 11 lbs. and 10, 20 and 26 lbs.- up to the manual specs. You have make sure the lines are straight, and you must have a counter wrench on there. It requires a LOT of torque. My guess is the average Joe who guesstimates this steps under-torques, and that is why most flares leak.

The vacuum test held overnight, so we finished up and the unit is working great. Once we flowed the R410a we did a bubble test with the good "Blue Bubble" stuff" and saw no problems at all. We also used Nylog on all the flares - that is really good stuff.

All I can say is this - I am convinced that proper torqueing is essential, and had I known how much tension is actually required, I would have just bought a straight torque wrence. It seems to take a lot of tension to make a really tight flare.

 

[motterpaul]

I just snug things up with a crescent wrench.

How tight do you go? I had my old ones installed by a guy who did not have a torque wrench, but they leaked starting with the second year. When I just took those connections apart I realized they were not anywhere near as tight as what we did using the torque wrench on the new install we just finished, done to the manufacturer's specs.

 

[tab2]

Used adjustables on my dual zone Mitsubishi and she’s still going strong. Was pressure tested over a weekend with nitrogen (I think 300 pounds) before they released the refrigerant.

Also used that Rigid flaring tool. Could probably pass it on now... Found out that deburring was a critical step for me to be successful.

 

[wogamax]

I went pro, this time. Much faster, than me but no torque wrench, bubble test and no overnight pressure testing. Pro flare tool and Nylog, however.

I wouldn't do A/C line torque by feel, remembering two places **low** specs like 20ft lbs matter:
-Divilar head studs, for a 911 engine, where accommodating thermal expansion means ~5lbs less on the one that expands.
-A Campagnolo bottom bracket, whose max ~35lb spec cracked a carbon Cervelo bike frame; the frame had a lower max, than the bottom bracket (thankfully, Cervelo warrenteed).

I'll do fuel line fittings by feel, but R410a pressures? To save time/~$50?