torque wrenching VS tighten by feel

[Islands62]

i only wrench on cars, not aircraft. but it there is a torque spec listed for a part, I use it. Everything else is tight, and then a smidge more.

 

[Big Bad Jon]

WTF guys this is getting a bit out of hand. I am sure that Elroy could fix an airplane if necessary and A Pmech could probably fix a baler. I personally a lowly ASE master tech use a torque wrench only when necessary. I have learned that there are times that having a correct torque spec can still spell disaster. I can not remember off the top of my head, but there is a GM that spells broken head bolts if you tighten it to spec. I wish I could remember which it is off hand. Thank godness I do not work on too many GMs. I think the point is that feel is great for most things, and the fact that feel is good enough does NOT make you a lesser mechanic. On the flip side i have the same respect for someone who used a torque wrench more often than I do. Look if a guy wants to spend his entire day tightening down brake calipers with a torque wrench that's fine. That leaves me with more cars to work on, and thus more $$$ to buy tools.

 

[speed bump]

i only wrench on cars, not aircraft. but it there is a torque spec listed for a part, I use it. Everything else is tight, and then a smidge more.

Generally this is what I do as well.

Also Elroy for doing it on feel Ag mechanics have nothing on mine mechanics or oil rig guys. I constantly wonder why in a shop that looks like a Snap-on advertisement for large tool boxes that are stuffed to the hilt with tools most of these guys never bring anything more than a crescent, a pipe wrench, two screwdrivers and maybe 3-4 random wrenches in a 2 ton service truck to work on a massive shovel.

 

[garfunkle24]

Most people understand and appreciate the training required for A&P certification. And, I would have thought, everyone would realize that you don't guess when lives are at stake.

However, you are trying to have rational discussions with someone who refers to himself as "Elroy" and doesn't understand the difference between a round baler and an airplane (not sure about a round bailer) and another who doesn't know why open end wrenches do not use a V notch instead of a curved surface. Doubt if either discussion will be very productive.

Whether lives are at stake or not, maintenance procedures still have to be limited to a reasonable and practical amount. Of course there are items in A + P maintenance that do not require such time-consuming work practices.

If we wished to eliminate all risks at the cost of practicality, we would simply build a new plane every time we wanted to fly.

Just for the record, I put much more credance in what Elroy has to say than you. I don't think a high post count automatically adds value to a poster's opinion, but how much time did you spend reading Elroy's many posts over an extended period on this site before mocking him?

 

[autoace]

Torque method is important, but clean threads that don't bind are crucial for proper torque feel or wrench. In many cases loc-tite or lube is needed for proper torque to be achieved/maintained. A bolt stretch gage in often more accurate, especially for rod bolts. Use the right feel/wrench/gage for the job and your results will be good. Knowing when and what to use is the real trick.

 

[A_Pmech]

Most people understand and appreciate the training required for A&P certification. And, I would have thought, everyone would realize that you don't guess when lives are at stake.

However, you are trying to have rational discussions with someone who refers to himself as "Elroy" and doesn't understand the difference between a round baler and an airplane (not sure about a round bailer) and another who doesn't know why open end wrenches do not use a V notch instead of a curved surface. Doubt if either discussion will be very productive.

This is true...

I'll stop now.



I need to go find my certified torque screwdriver now. I just got a squak sheet that included "Loose fasteners on the ashtray hinge."

 

[Elroy]

Doubt if either discussion will be very productive.

Well then, go ahead and contribute sense you obviously have such superior knowledge and judgement.

Why don't you just go right ahead and explain the function of a stress concentration factor and how a curved beam has its neutral axis shifted off the geometric center line of the cross section. Then you could continue with educating all of us about the discontinuity in the stress gradient when a component is case hard and how that notch influences the fatigue strength.

Have you figured out the difference between a Stanley built MAC and a Proto yet?

you are trying to have rational discussions with someone who refers to himself as "Elroy"

Well at least Elroy has a name instead of We Hide Tools initials.
Why don't you go Hind The Tool with your boy friend and keep your nose out of this discussion.

Please accept Elroys sincere apologies to the other members of board.

On a more serious note: I can fully understand when a torque spec or clearance spec or voltage spec is called for you must follow the established guide exactly. There is good reason for all of these specs as AP has expertly outlined.

Beside the smart *** dig from WHT, Elroy has already stated his position, very clearly several times:

If you need a torque wrench to assemble a thermostat housing or an air cleaner wing nut then you're not much of a mechanic.

Yes, while being augmented with the proper tools procedures and specifications.

Elroys *** gets chaffed when someone says. "Oh I use a torque wrench on EVERYTHING especially the ash tray hinge bolts"

What it all really boils down to is the sophistication of the machinery. Sure a 1952 Tractor is not even in the same ball park as a modern aircraft. Henry Ford screwed together millions of Model T's with out a torque wrench.

My point is you don't need a torque wrench for EVERYTHING. A plane is a unique and special application as there are laws that dictate how they are to be maintained. And if an accident could be traced back to the wrong torque being applied to a fastener failing on the ash tray door hinge then Boeing and the FAA would enter that into their maintenance procedure. But until that day comes you'll look like a bigger ******** than Elroy making some stupid, lame *** blanket statement that you use a torque wrench on everything!

And we state again:

If you need a torque wrench to assemble a thermostat housing or an air cleaner wing nut then you're not much of a mechanic.

or an alternator housing
or a water pump cover bolt
or a master cylinder mounting bolt
or Lap Top Computer shelf in the first class cabin.

We're done here as well

Oh by the way:

Just for the record, I put much more credence in what Elroy has to say than you. I don't think a high post count automatically adds value to a poster's opinion, but how much time did you spend reading Elroy's many posts over an extended period on this site before mocking him?

Thank you for the kind words

 

[fordracing200]

anything important, but most things i just tighten down to snug or like lugnuts that i just hammer on on low with the IR

 

[Junkman]

In 1963, I had a Corvair Spyder Turbo, and it just didn't run right. The Chevy dealer took it apart, and couldn't find anything wrong. I took it apart, compared part numbers, and found that the cam wasn't the correct one for that engine. I didn't own a torque wrench to put it back together, so I did it by feel. It ran perfectly, and I never had that engine apart again. I had a friend that had the identical car, and his was constantly blowing head gaskets, and they were replaced by the Chevy dealer under warranty. They used a torque wrench to torque the heads to the correct specification. A couple months later, he would blow another head gasket, and it went back for replacement. Remember, that this was the first turbocharged engine in a mass produced car (discounting the Cord). Since I went by feel, my heads were torqued much more than factory specs, hence, no blown head gaskets. Eventually, Chevrolet started raising the torque value for the heads in an attempt to resolve the problem. By 1969, they had raised it so much, that they eliminated the blown head gasket problem. In this instance, the feel method worked, whereas the torque wrench didn't. I rest my case.
PS.... what is the torque setting for bumper bolts on a 1963 Chrysler???
My current Corvair... 1964 Spyder Coupe

 

[Merkava_4]

What are certified A & P technicians getting paid these days anyway? I worked as an A & P tech for about 6 months in 1995 and was only getting paid $7.50/Hr. I left that job to take on a job as a Lube Technician at a Toyota dealership for $12.65/Hr.

 

[garfunkle24]

What are certified A & P technicians getting paid these days anyway? I worked as an A & P tech for about 6 months in 1995 and was only getting paid $7.50/Hr. I left that job to take on a job as a Lube Technician at a Toyota dealership for $12.65/Hr.

Good money for a lube tech in '95

 

[Junkman]

Good money for a lube tech in '95

He knew how to use a torque wrench, so he was overqualified for the job...

 

[A_Pmech]

What are certified A & P technicians getting paid these days anyway? I worked as an A & P tech for about 6 months in 1995 and was only getting paid $7.50/Hr. I left that job to take on a job as a Lube Technician at a Toyota dealership for $12.65/Hr.

Certified or un-certified position, Merk?

$7.50 an hour for a certified position is INSANE.

In corporate aviation, where I worked before starting my shop, pay averages in the mid 20's to the low 40's, depending on your position in the shop and any additional skills you bring to the table. If you're a machinist, have your GROL license, or you're a TIG hand, you'll stand a good chance of getting into the 30's or 40's at a repair station.

In addition, certified mechanics trained via apprenticeship generally start out at higher than certified mechanics trained via college. Mainly because those who went the apprenticeship route already have years of work experience, versus the new grad who's never spent a day in a working shop.

In some areas of aviation, the pay is horrible though. General aviation shops at small airports are a prime example. The chief mechanic might make $12.50 an hour! Not anywhere near my idea of compensation for the amount of responsibility and care required, that's for sure!

Aviation is a rather volatile business, especially the commercial side. Some of the guys I know just go with the flow. They go work for Boeing, or whatever company has a hot contract. They build a few airplanes or airplane parts and when the hot contract goes, they go with it. Then they catch some time on the beach before looking for the next outfit with a hot contract. They're not average though. Those guys handle a rivet gun and shaver like nobody's business.

 

[Merkava_4]

Good money for a lube tech in '95

They started me off with those wages because I had completed two years of community college. The previous Piper Aircraft employer apparently wasn't impressed by my college time.

 

[Diesel_Crawler]

"Liability" is everything in the world today. Should everything be torqued on an airplane to a tight spec, HELL Yes! I don't want to be at 10,000 feet and my seat go through the floor or something

We do a lot of school buses at work, the nuts on all 50 U bolts have to be torqued on now, then covered by undercoating go figure. But as silly as it seems if you dont and the one in one million chance that something happens to it, its the persons *** who signs the paper that's on the chopping block.

A few weeks ago, a tech at a shop down the road did the breaks on a cargo van, he said he used the torque wrench on the lug nits. We all know he does it by hand. The tire came off going down the high way, no one was hurt but he is under investigation now since it was a rental unit and he passed the safety inspection on it. He could lose his license over 5 minutes of "Doing it by Feel"

Everything i do at work finds a torque wrench on it, It is a simple "CMA" Thing to do.

 

[makgreens]

With the prevalence of light weight low clamping strength materials in the cycling community I have to use a torque wrench on virtually everything on a bike. Back in the day parts were made with far more tapers and stronger clamping areas to last for decades instead of a few seasons. Tapers require a mechanic to be able to feel when they are interlocked correctly ( there are TQ figures for them but they are notoriously low ) tapers also have to be put together dry as any lube will compromise the part and fit. In the past few years I have seen and had far too many TQ wrenches fail or need recalibration far too often in the cycling industry. Industral/ production TQ wrenches are the only way to go for the pro that uses them every day 100+ time a day.

i worked for 9 months in my cities best bike shop and definately got a feel for everything...we only used TW's on external cranks and carbon parts
everything else was by feel...and u learn the feel real quick when u split your first carbon seatpost
now i do most everything by feel unless im rebuilding an engine
i miss turning wrenches on bikes but my job was a victim to lay offs

and you really learn the feel when your start building wheels....i tacoed a rim once too...no fun...and to my knowledge there is no TW for spokes but i could be wrong

 

[-B-]

i worked for 9 months in my cities best bike shop and definately got a feel for everything...we only used TW's on external cranks and carbon parts
everything else was by feel...and u learn the feel real quick when u split your first carbon seatpost
now i do most everything by feel unless im rebuilding an engine
i miss turning wrenches on bikes but my job was a victim to lay offs

and you really learn the feel when your start building wheels....i tacoed a rim once too...no fun...and to my knowledge there is no TW for spokes but i could be wrong

You most defiantly are wrong you never ever go by feel once CF is involved and there are tensionomiters for spokes. You tacoed the rim because of failure to use proper tools and techniques. High end parts now are on the ragged edge light weight high performance vs longevity. 5-20k you never ever take a chance it is 15lbs of lightning

 

[makgreens]

You most defiantly are wrong you never ever go by feel once CF is involved and there are tensionomiters for spokes. You tacoed the rim because of failure to use proper tools and techniques. High end parts now are on the ragged edge light weight high performance vs longevity. 5-20k you never ever take a chance it is 15lbs of lightning

well i was just getting into it...never said the others didnt use the right tools

i tacoed the rim cause they handed me a wheel and said true it...never doing that before i went at it....yeah didnt turn out to well
i only did that once..i only ever delt with your typical spoked wheel...never touched a mavic...and when the others did they used a ton of tools

and i go feel on everything but carbon now...but im not riding bikes anymore so i dont even mess with that stuff anymore

the only bike i personally built(not in the shop) i used TW's on was my carbon fixed gear...

by the time i left the shop i used TW's on all highend bikes but not so much on your average joe stuff since most of it was feel by then...

 

[garfunkle24]

5-20k you never ever take a chance it is 15lbs of lightning

I worked as a bike tech many moons ago, but everything i worked on was 35 - 40 lbs. Different crowd I think.

 

[WHT]

Well then, go ahead and contribute sense you obviously have such superior knowledge and judgement.

Why don't you just go right ahead and explain the function of a stress concentration factor and how a curved beam has its neutral axis shifted off the geometric center line of the cross section. Then you could continue with educating all of us about the discontinuity in the stress gradient when a component is case hard and how that notch influences the fatigue strength.

Have you figured out the difference between a Stanley built MAC and a Proto yet?



Well at least Elroy has a name instead of We Hide Tools initials.
Why don't you go Hind The Tool with your boy friend and keep your nose out of this discussion.

Now Elroy, don't get your ******* in a twist.

I'm impressed you were able to cut and paste from Wikipedia and also spell many of the big words today. Although, (i) you still need to work on a few like "judgment" and (ii) most of us stopped calling other people gay in the third grade.

In general, a very nice improvement from last time and you deserve a solid C+ for effort.

How's your study of powdered metal sockets progressing?

 

[garfunkle24]

Posted May 28th, 5.17pm:

how much time did you spend reading Elroy's many posts over an extended period on this site before mocking him?

Posted May 29, 12.05am

Now Elroy, don't get your ******* in a twist.

I'm impressed you were able to cut and paste from Wikipedia and also spell many of the big words today. Although, (i) you still need to work on a few like "judgment" and (ii) most of us stopped calling other people gay in the third grade.

In general, a very nice improvement from last time and you deserve a solid C+ for effort.

How's your study of powdered metal sockets progressing?

Did you just read 1725 posts?

 

[Autoguy]

You should follow the manufacturers specifications always especially on critical components whether airplane tractor or automobile. Those guidelines were written by experts and designetrs with long experience and authority in their fields period....

 

[Stephenw]

I use a torque wrench on anything I feel is critical.

Everything has a torque value. Use the torque setting specified in the procedure for the specific task that you are performing. If a torque is not specified, there will be a torque chart based on fastener size. That is usually in a general information section of the manual.

In general, wrenches are sized to apply the proper torque. The larger the wrench size, the longer the handle. Obviously, this doesn't apply to short or long pattern wrenches.

 

[toolfreak]

I torque all my suspension parts so they move freely, anything in aluminum, lug nuts, and anuthing else I feel needs to be torqued. Can I do all that by feel? Sure can but why not take a little extra time and do it right. I completely understand and agree with everything being torqued on an airplane, I am sure alot of them can do it by feel but when your career is on the line it's not an option. How a baler and airplane are being compared I don't get it, every farmer I know is a cobbler so how would that be a comparison to an airline tech?

 

[Big Bad Jon]

I feel this poor thread has been hijacked. Sorry. I just have a question to WHT... You have posted 13 times on this forum, and possibly as many as 5 before this thread, do you think that a bit of courtesy to a senior member like Elroy would have been a bit more tactful? I mean hell if you went into any shop and started talking like this on your first day I do not think you would last long.

 

[Diesel_Crawler]

I feel this poor thread has been hijacked. Sorry. I just have a question to WHT... You have posted 13 times on this forum, and possibly as many as 5 before this thread, do you think that a bit of courtesy to a senior member like Elroy would have been a bit more tactful? I mean hell if you went into any shop and started talking like this on your first day I do not think you would last long.

Indeed, Sounds like he is young enough to know everything

 

[Zarcero]

On my motorcycle I torque to spec.