Torsion spring winding cone.....stuck.......

[Paultergeist]

Greetings, I am hoping that some of the folks that really understand garage doors can possibly offer me some suggestions:

I have a 16-foot (wide) garage door. It was professionally-installed about 5-6 years ago. The weight of the door is counter-balanced by a single torsion spring. There have been a few issues with this door over time; most of these issue I have been able to solve and were associated with the installation and some perculiarities of the house itself. At any rate, the door has become quite heavy to open (manually) as the torsion spring has relaxed. I am thus in the process of attempting to add turns (tension) to the torsion spring. I have reviewed all the instructional information and safety precautions I could find; I feel pretty confident in my ability to perform this task. I have acquired the task-specific torsion sprong winding bars for this job.

Now the problem: The torsion spring winding cone is frozen on the torsion tube. Because of this, adding tension to the spring has become problematic, as standard procedures seem to require that the torsion tube (with the pulleys connected) remains fixed while the winding cone is turned to adjust spring tension -- but my winding cone will not turn. At this point in time, I have relieved all tension on the torsion spring by loosening the cable pulleys from the torsion tube and allowing the spring to relax -- not the best approach, but I saw no other way to go. Even with both set screws (bolts) completely removed from the spring winding cone, I cannot get the spring winding cone to rotate on the torsion tube -- this is even with no spring tension what-so-ever.

I am not sure what to do.

I am thinking maybe strike the cone using a hammer conveyed through a block of wood? Maybe try heating it up with a torch? Another option might be to accept that the torsion tube and the spring winding cone are married, and adjust spring tension by loosening both pulleys and then re-engage the pulleys after tension is back on the spring/torsion tube....? I am open to ideas. I am wondering if this is a common issue with garage doors.....I have never heard of this happening before and this is not my area of expertise.

Thanks for any assistance.

 

[nova65ss]

Sounds like the installer tightened the set screws too tight and bent the shaft up. Easiest way is to stick the bar in the winding cone and hit it the bar near the cone with a hammer. Of course do this without any spring tension and you will also need to unbolt the mounting cone from the center plate. Once you get it free either move the shaft over or use a file to free it up.

 

[Zeke]

Garage door repair guys don't cost that much. I had one rewound for a $125 service call. Really, isn't that cheap enough to leave dangerous work to others? And they have probably seen the issue you have many times.

 

[Top_Fuel]

Just some random thoughts since I just went through replacing the torsion springs, bearings, cables and rollers on my 16 ft door about a month ago...

1. You just have 1 spring on a 16 ft door? Is it a fairly light non-insulated door? I thought most doors this wide used 2 torsion springs?!?

2. I was in a similar situation, with a 16ft door that was getting too heavy for my older torsion springs. So I "added" a couple of extra winds and the door felt like it was better balanced. Well...about a month later one of the springs broke. Be aware that adding extra winds to a worn spring may just be a short-term band-aid.

3. I agree with nova65ss...someone probably over-tightened the bolts too much and squashed the round torsion tube into an oval shape inside the winiding cone. I had to pound some of the parts off of my tube because of that same condition.

I used to think that messing with torsion springs was too dangerous, etc. If you have basic mechanical skills, common sense, AND you are using PROPER WINDING BARS (not re-bar, screwdrivers, etc) you can handle installing a new spring...or maybe even converting to a 2-spring setup (which some places seem to recommend). There are some really good YouTube videos out there done by professional installers.

 

[rslaback]

Put a pipe wrench on the shaft and up against the wall above the door. Use one of your rods to try to push the cone up (making the wrench grab and hold the shaft). If it pops free, great. If not, call a guy or disassemble the whole thing.

 

[CNGsaves]

Sounds like spring was undersized from the start and having to work too hard. Use techniques other GJer's recommended to break it loose.

Had this same problem with my 16'x8' insulated door in last house when one spring eventually broke (door had been upgraded at some point from the flimsly "builder grade" tin door initially with house - - thus the 2 short springs I had were being overworked). Garage door install/repairman instead went with larger (ie longer) spring to replace broken spring and worked like a champ after that (thus one longer spring, and one shorter).

I'd recommend that you add another spring. The second spring can even be smaller (ie shorter) as it just adds ooooomph to the other larger spring that is being forced to work too hard.

 

[Paultergeist]

All,

Thank you most kindly for the thoughts and suggestions. I have read through these replies several times and am allowing these ideas to "marinate" in my head a bit.

Top_Fuel asked a few specific question which I thought I would try to answer:

1. You just have 1 spring on a 16 ft door? Is it a fairly light non-insulated door? I thought most doors this wide used 2 torsion springs?!?.

It is a 16 x 7 door and -- as installed by the authorized installer -- it has only one torsion spring. The manufacturer is "Martin," and from what I can tell from their installation manual, they offer both single-spring and dual-spring designs. I do not know what determines whether two or only one spring is used. I would NOT describe the door as light. It is a thin metal on both the inside as well as the outside, with a sandwich of insulation between the two layers. I would guess there is 200-300 pounds of door there.

2. I was in a similar situation, with a 16ft door that was getting too heavy for my older torsion springs. So I "added" a couple of extra winds and the door felt like it was better balanced. Well...about a month later one of the springs broke. Be aware that adding extra winds to a worn spring may just be a short-term band-aid..

It is a farily new door, and this would be the first spring adjustment. I intend on being pretty wary.

3. I agree with nova65ss...someone probably over-tightened the bolts too much and squashed the round torsion tube into an oval shape inside the winiding cone. I had to pound some of the parts off of my tube because of that same condition..

I really appreciate this insight -- upon reflection, I believe that this is exactly what has happened.

I used to think that messing with torsion springs was too dangerous, etc. If you have basic mechanical skills, common sense, AND you are using PROPER WINDING BARS (not re-bar, screwdrivers, etc) you can handle installing a new spring...or maybe even converting to a 2-spring setup (which some places seem to recommend). There are some really good YouTube videos out there done by professional installers.

I have absolutely acquired the proper winding bars -- I got the hexagonal ones from "GarageDoorNation.com" for this purpose. I have watched a number of YouTube videos thus far, and I feel like I do have a basic comprehension of how the springs and pulleys work. I don't want to be foolish with my safety, but I do feel like -- given the proper committment to understand things and to proceed carefully -- that the risks can be managed to an acceptable level. The company -- in my end of the world -- is likely to charge at least a couple hundred, and I would really like to save the money and gain the competence.

I like the dual spring idea. I am wondering how the determination is arrived at to use (2) springs?

I will try to *coax* the spring winding cone free from the torsion bar later tonight when I get homw from work, using some of the insights gained through all of these replies. More to follow.

Thank you again -- everyone -- for the help and support.

Paul

 

[koditten]

As soon as you posted that the door had insulation, I knew someone cheaper out and did not install the second spring.

KO

 

[BillK]

Have you looked at this site ? http://ddmgaragedoors.com/index.php

I don't see any reason you should not be able to do this job yourself. I have two 16 ft doors and have adjusted both several times over the years. I have also replaced the springs on one of them. Not a big deal if you are fairly mechanically inclined and careful.
Keep in mind that some of the newer rods are actually hollow tubes and using a pipe wrench on them may cause damage. I would not be at all afraid to smack the cone with a hammer and a pc of wood, probably the only way you are going to get it loose at this point.

 

[Top_Fuel]

...I have absolutely acquired the proper winding bars...from "GarageDoorNation.com" for this purpose.

I bought a complete replacement spring bundle from those guys...it came with 2 torsion springs, new (beefy) cables, new rollers for the door, bearing plates for the torsion tube, and winding bars. Everything went together fairly easily and the door works great (and it's much quieter).

I have a name-brand door that's "only" about 8 years old, but I think my supporting hardware was cheap. I had multiple bad rollers on my door, a broken torsion spring, and fairly flimsy lifting cables (compared to the new ones).

I like the dual spring idea. I am wondering how the determination is arrived at to use (2) springs?

Here's a link from Garage Door Nation...

Convert from one spring to 2 springs

 

[Jlbc212]

Torsion springs come in all different wire size, diameters and length. The one spring may have been properly engineered for your door and it sounds like it was because it worked okay for a few years. If you have loosened up the pulleys, and you have a bit of excess tube or shaft extending beyond the bearing plates at both ends (at the horizontal track), you may be able to tap the end of the tube. Use a wooden block and hammer. This will set the winding end of the spring away from the indents made by the set screws.
Vise grips secured on the tube work well to keep tension on the cables when winding the spring. Keep your body positioned away from the winding bars when winding the spring.

Torsion springs generally can last through a predictable number of opening & closing cycles. However, they can break at any time. I've had new ones break while I was winding them. It's just the nature of spring steel. Sudden changes in temperature (heated garage opened on a very cold day) can cause a spring to snap.

 

[Paultergeist]

To all,

I am truly appreciative of the support of these replies; I am equally humbled by the depth and wisdom of many of the insights being provided.

I got the spring winding cone loose last night. It was suggested to me (in an earlier post) that I insert a winding rod into one of the cone holes and strike the rod near cone -- thus applying lateral impact force to the cone to get it to break free from the torsion tube. This idea worked.......

....trying to include a photo or two.......

 

[Paultergeist]

....and with that, I now understand *why* I was unable to simply adjust the torsion spring as I had originally intended (a la YouTube video), and why the original plan went pear-shaped. In retrospect, I was a bit lucky that I was able to get the door closed (it had gotten jammed during all of this) and that nothing appears to have been damaged. Also on the positive side, I have learned much about how this door operates, and how torsion spring force is applied to the pulleys.

I am now wondering if there are superior torsion tubes available, perhaps out of a thicker gauge of metal (less likely to deform under the pressure of the bolts in the winding cone)?

The "dual spring" idea makes a lot of sense to me as well......thinking.....thinking.....

 

[Burb]

....I am now wondering if there are superior torsion tubes available, perhaps out of a thicker gauge of metal (less likely to deform under the pressure of the bolts in the winding cone)?....

They make solid Torsion tubes(I guess it's really not a tube if it's solid, but you get the idea.) They obviously weight a lot more, so on a 16' door it would be a good idea to have help when installing the solid "tube"

 

[CNGsaves]

So is the gameplan now . . . .
. .
a) new torsion tube
b) add second spring ???

 

[Paultergeist]

Thinking......Immediate plan: get it put back together and working, such that I can have a functional garage door again. Bonus: learning and confidence have increased.

Slightly longer-term plan: Outfit the garage with dual springs. For consistency, I will probably order the opposite side-spring anchor bracket from Martin (manufacturer) so that both spring brackets match. Then I'll most likely get a dual-spring kit from GarageDoorNation or one of the other vendors -- my understanding is that I cannot just simply add another spring to the single-spring which I currently have, but rather a unified pair of springs has to be rated to appropriately divide the load, etc.

I was also thinking that it might be good to add a second center bearing bracket (to support the torsion tube)? Right now, I have only one center bearing bracket -- mounted right in the middle of the span across the garage door opening -- but I can observe the torsion tube encounter some *flex* as I wind the spring. Having the center bearing bracket support the torsion tube closer to the winding cone seems like a more secure way to go -- I would thus need (2) of these center bearing brackets if I go to (2) springs as I propose.

Such is the current plan.....

 

[CNGsaves]

Don't think it's required to have "unified" springs . . . . sure it would be optimal and look better if both were same length, but likely not required.

At last house I had when one spring broke, the installer put in larger (ie longer) spring on one side for the shorter one that broke. It was 16'x8' insulated door and worked like a champ after that.

 

[Paultergeist]

I agree that the springs would probably not have to look identical, but I would rather just know that they were matched springs (of opposite winding directions).

What is important, however, is that the spring(s) are correctly sized and rated for the weight and travel of the door. My understanding is that I cannot simply add a second spring to the existing one-spring arrangement I currently have, but rather -- in order to properly accomodate both the weight of the door and the required travel (number of spring turns) -- I would need to dispense with the single spring currently in use and replace it with two springs designed to handle this installation.

I could be wrong, but it seems to make sense to me. Plus.....as you say.....matched springs will simply look better.

 

[upndown]

You are correct! You cannot just add another spring to your door, you'll never get it to balance. That one spring is calculated for the weight and height of your door, another random spring would be counter productive. While the correct spring is doing its job lifting the door, the other spring starts back winding, like trying to push Nd pull at the same time.

You really don't need two center bearings. One is the norm. Once you get it rolling again, I would just use it till that spring breaks then go with two! Just remember when that spring breaks there will be no tension on your cables, so try not to use the door!

 

[kbs2244]

A rarely mentioned thing about torsion springs.
They rub on themselves during every open/close cycle.
A once a month bead of oil along the top of the spring will do wonders.