Torx vs. the world

[Wakefield]

Do people really have more problems with Torx (internal) fasteners wallowing out or stripping than the traditional internal hex/Allen style fasteners? Are the Torx openings more shallow than the internal hex openings? Is that a design mistake?

I think in an ideal world there would have been no Torx and then Torx Plus,it would have been better if they had all been Torx Plus from the very beginning.

I guess they are adding more small Torx Plus and that increases the chance of not having the best driver in the fastener and adds to confusion? It is hard for me to see the difference. Torx Plus or regular Torx in the Snap On ratchet coverplates and the flex joint bolts?

 

[wafrederick]

I don't,I break them loose by hand first.GM 4T65Es have 4 T40 bolts on the bottom holding the side cover on.I blow the dirt out with compressed using a spray nozzle first and make sure the torx bit fits in completely finally breaking them loose.If they still don't move and there is room to get a torch tip in the spot,heat them up since there is loctite on them from the factory.

 

[Fast LT1]

I don't,I break them loose by hand first.GM 4T65Es have 4 T40 bolts on the bottom holding the side cover on.I blow the dirt out with compressed using a spray nozzle first and make sure the torx bit fits in completely finally breaking them loose.If they still don't move and there is room to get a torch tip in the spot,heat them up since there is loctite on them from the factory.

I've stripped those before. Never thought about putting a torch in there.

And yes, Torx seem to strip easier. In fact the mentally slow r&r guy at our shop stripped one out today.

Good quality Torx bits help. Snap on gold Torx bits are the best I've used so far

 

[wafrederick]

The 2 piece 4L60Es,have to heat the bolts up holding the bellhousing in with a torch due to how much loctite was used.Those 4 torx bolts for the 4T65E side cover bolts,I got lucky removing them with an air hammer not doing any damage to the side cover stripping them out.Bolts spun right out easily.

 

[abvw]

I've stripped way more internal (and external) hex than torx, like 20:1, those who stripes torx are not using the right size, or have used a hex bit. My boss and coworkers in their 50s can't differentiate internal torx and hex due to poor eyesight, thus stripping them all the time.

 

[LAROKE]

I've stripped way more internal (and external) hex than torx, like 20:1, those who stripes torx are not using the right size, or have used a hex bit. My boss and coworkers in their 50s can't differentiate internal torx and hex due to poor eyesight, thus stripping them all the time.

Geezer bashing! Oh Lord, when will it ever end?

 

[Dave455]

All other things being equal - No! The torx recess is superior to the slotted screw, Phillips, Pozidriv, Allen/hex and a host of others for torque transmission!

Unfortunately, all things are not equal! A lot of manufacturers use torx head screws because it allows them to use a much softer/cheaper screw than they would otherwise!

Combine that with the increased use of screws such as countersunk head screws using a relatively small torx size, daft stuff such as slightly triangular screws so they don't need locknuts and you find yourself stripping the head out of a brake disc screw that wouldn't be a problem at all if it was 3/8 Whitworth and made in Coventry!

Used sensibly, with decent metal screws, and Torx is a vast improvement on anything that's gone before! Torx plus is probably something I don't need! Yes it's better, but not better enough to justify the universe having to go out and buy yet more drivers!

 

[woody 73]

geezer bashing ...I don't blame those guys heck yes my eyes **** darn things strip easy, hearing ***** also; darn what those younger guys get to look forward too.

internal torx from hex yadda yadda yadda I say bring it on followed by 10,000 watts of overhead ceiling lights.

 

[pettybird]

I know when I have trouble with Torx it's because I was lazy and didn't clean out the bolt/screw well enough before I tried to take it apart. You only do that a few dozen times before you learn...

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have heard of Torx+ but never seen them and hope I never do. I spent about $30 for T2, T3, T4 and T5 precision screwdrivers recently. I don't want to have to buy the T+ series.

 

[Super Sport]

I've stripped out a few Torx using Cman sockets. I think good torx sockets go a long way!

 

[ChevyEFI]

Cheap T40 bits don't live in the guide bolts Tremec used from 92-05. The new bolts are better. But going to Apex bits is the answer.
I actually used to use a T40-Plus and tap it in with a hammer. Other than T47 (very similar to Torx-Plus; maybe the same really), I don't recall seeing any Plus. But, it's a better design than regular Torx.

My SK torx bit socket set had several twisted or chipped tooth insert bits. Whereas Allen bolts tend to strip out more.

Give me regular hex heads.

 

[The Frisco Kid]

I love Torx far more than Phillips heads.

 

[Conductor562]

In an ideal world we'd have been using Robertson's all along and everyone would be saying "What the hell is a Phillips?"

If Henry Ford hadn't been so excited with Vertical Integration it very well may have turned out that way. Robertson is the superior design IMO

 

[Ign]

In an ideal world we'd have been using Robertson's all along and everyone would be saying "What the hell is a Phillips?"

If Henry Ford hadn't been so excited with Vertical Integration it very well may have turned out that way. Robertson is the superior design IMO

This. I flat out refuse to buy phillips head wood screws. Period.

 

[priceman1414]

The supposed advantage of a torx fastener is that each 'lobe' of the torx contacts each recess in the fastener head more directly than a hex shape, where contact will happen at the corners.

So under that logic, it would be harder to strip a torx, in theory.

See attached picture (from wikipedia).

 

[Skin]

usually deform or break the bits first. The fun thing with torx is when they're machined shallow so if you don't keep constant downward force as you're turning the bit cams out and your fist impacts something metal.

 

[MikeF2316]

In an ideal world we'd have been using Robertson's all along and everyone would be saying "What the hell is a Phillips?"

If Henry Ford hadn't been so excited with Vertical Integration it very well may have turned out that way. Robertson is the superior design IMO

I heard that it was because Henry Ford was afraid of a strike at the Robertson plant that he wanted to make the screws himself as well. (Not all the eggs in one basket.) Robertson didn't want anybody else making the screws, so the world got stuck with Phillips.

 

[MikeF2316]

Cheap T40 bits don't live in the guide bolts Tremec used from 92-05. The new bolts are better. But going to Apex bits is the answer.
I actually used to use a T40-Plus and tap it in with a hammer. Other than T47 (very similar to Torx-Plus; maybe the same really), I don't recall seeing any Plus. But, it's a better design than regular Torx.

My SK torx bit socket set had several twisted or chipped tooth insert bits. Whereas Allen bolts tend to strip out more.

Give me regular hex heads.

I broke all 6 points off my Lisle T40 trying to undo the bolts that hold the thermostat housing on my S70 Volvo. That ruined the bolts for a good Torx bit. The stupid thing is a couple of inches away the upper and lower half of the head are held together with the same M7 bolts that use a 10 mm socket.

 

[Conductor562]

I heard that it was because Henry Ford was afraid of a strike at the Robertson plant that he wanted to make the screws himself as well. (Not all the eggs in one basket.) Robertson didn't want anybody else making the screws, so the world got stuck with Phillips.

Ford wanted to make everything himself for obvious reasons (Research Fordlandia for an example of this failing spectacularly). Robertson was unwilling to license Ford to make them while Phillips was happy to. In essence, Robertson wanted people to buy his screws whereas Phillips wanted people to make his. If you research Robertson it's hard to blame him for his decision. He lost his company previously in part because of liscensing agreements gone wrong and spend a fortune and several years getting in back.

 

[jeremy v]

I have actually had very good luck with torx fasteners in comparison to other styles, but I do wonder sometimes how much of that luck really has to do with the fact that almost all the torx fasteners I encounter are not old enough to be very rusty like some of the other fastener styles can be.

One thing I have noticed from time to time is that some brands of torx bits (especially the cheaper and mid-priced ones) have quite a bit of convex doming on the very tip of the bit or else there is a small leftover machining nub left in the very center of the tip. In use that convex dome or nub will hit the bottom of the torx fastener before the torx lobes have a chance to fully engage the full depth of the fastener, so as a result some extra possible strength in the connection is lost. I always check the tips of any new bits and grind any tip doming down to basically nothing before using them now, and most of the modified bits do tend to feel noticeably more secure when engaging a fastener after the mod. It is a quick and easy free mod that upgrades the performance of cheaper bits and drivers.

 

[Sureshot]

I heard that it was because Henry Ford was afraid of a strike at the Robertson plant that he wanted to make the screws himself as well. (Not all the eggs in one basket.) Robertson didn't want anybody else making the screws, so the world got stuck with Phillips.

Actually I find that Canada has a much wider use of Robertson than the US so I don't think the world got stuck with them. But we do get Phillips in all the curtain rods, blinds, etc which I immediately toss.

 

[exophyusical]

At trade school the explanation for the existence of torx fasteners was given as such... the Robertson screw driver was a Canadian invention and therefore the American car makers would not use them even though they recognized their superior design. In an attempt to come up with an American made equivalent the world was blessed with Torx and a few other dumb *** fasteners.

Not sure if its true but one does find supprisingly few Robertson fasteners on American cars, cursed by American arrogance? Wouldn't be the first time I guess..

 

[Gmonkee]

The torx head is not metric or SAE specific. Bolts coulds be any thread standard behind them amd you still need only one drive tool. That is an advantage allen does not have.

Robertson does not appear in Mexico much, we still see phillips and flat, then the allen and torx somewhat less. Love or hate any of those styles they are not going away for a good long while.

I am not surprised no one mentioned clutch head drivers yet. Another short lived attempt to replace what already works well.

M, E and Torx plus are relatively new, security torx has been around a while. This begs the question of what new popular item will use them forcing us all to buy sets of those styles too.
I have all but the M styles already. I have needed them all in the past.

 

[Conductor562]

Actually I find that Canada has a much wider use of Robertson than the US so I don't think the world got stuck with them. But we do get Phillips in all the curtain rods, blinds, etc which I immediately toss.

Canada seems to be the only place the Robertson's are common. Lucky bastards

 

[ChevyEFI]

I broke all 6 points off my Lisle T40 trying to undo the bolts that hold the thermostat housing on my S70 Volvo. That ruined the bolts for a good Torx bit. The stupid thing is a couple of inches away the upper and lower half of the head are held together with the same M7 bolts that use a 10 mm socket.

I just read an old thread on here re: mechanicnamedjohn doing a head R&R on a Volvo head so I can picture what you're saying.

Not sure if its true but one does find supprisingly few Robertson fasteners on American cars, cursed by American arrogance? Wouldn't be the first time I guess..

Humans are funny. Ever hear someone stuck in their ways tell you the torx bits on a Quadrajet are dumb? Compared to the straight bit ones?

 

[littletoes]

I built a deck, land the only heavy 3" lifetime warranted screws they had were torx.

I would say, a big job using all new screws, such as that would be a great test. You get to use the driver till it starts to get "dull", or "rounded", and then see what happens. In the automotive world, we don't seem to use 'em all that often, but the angles kill you.

Yep, the torx drivers rounded a big after a while, just like anything else, but you sure had a more positive "feel" till then, and it took quite a bit longer before the driver got dull, compared to a Philips driver.

Just my observation.....

 

[Conductor562]

I read somewhere that Phillips were designed to cam out rather than become "over tightened". I guess they do that, but getting it back out is quite the chore sometimes.

 

[theknurl]

Torx **** hind teat......

you can't power feed them in bulk

Allen, Phillips, Phillips Posi-drive and hex heads you can

and they all work with impact drivers better to remove them too

Robertsons? please, but they are better than clutch heads.....the only thing worse than Torx

yes, i spent 5 years in the Engineering Dept, installation tools section HiShear Corp an aerospace fastener company

 

[Ign]

{snip}yes, i spent 5 years in the Engineering Dept, installation tools section HiShear Corp an aerospace fastener company

That's nice. Spend hours everyday on your knees driving decking screws and get back with us. Roberston or the "star drive" is the way to go, especially before impact drivers became so common.

 

[Mastermind]

anyone run into the five point security torx yet? ran into some yrs ago on a lic. plate, saw the set from 8-60,had to have it, havent used one yet. and what about RIBE?

 

[Nocturnal-G]

anyone run into the five point security torx yet? ran into some yrs ago on a lic. plate, saw the set from 8-60,had to have it, havent used one yet. and what about RIBE?

Mercedes mirrors have 5 point security torx.

 

[Dave455]

anyone run into the five point security torx yet? ran into some yrs ago on a lic. plate, saw the set from 8-60,had to have it, havent used one yet. and what about RIBE?

Those are 'torx plus' security screws. Whereas Torx security screws just use a pin in the middle, torx plus security screws use a 5 point design!

There are a number of other designs, most of which seem to be an attempt to avoid paying royalties to whoever owned the torx design at the time.

Ribe screws are one such design. Think they may be Italian. I've only ever seen them on Italian stuff!

 

[MikeF2316]

I just read an old thread on here re: mechanicnamedjohn doing a head R&R on a Volvo head so I can picture what you're saying.

I bought a couple of the hex head bolts to replace the damaged ones, so I had no need of the T40 anymore.
And I bought a high quality T40 bit from the MAC truck, I'm not sure why...

 

[mudflap]

geezer bashing! Oh lord, when will it ever end?

............lol

 

[AV tinker er]

My tools at work are supplied so if my torx bit shows any signs of wear I will switch it out in the tool crib. That usually helps considerably; also a spot of valve grinding compound will take care of the rest. I haven't had to drill a torx screw yet.

 

[bczygan]

Geezer bashing! Oh Lord, when will it ever end?

I'm a geezer and I can't see squat anymore. One eye is nearsighted and the other farsighted.

I think the fasteners are just shrinking down to smaller sizes as they age, thus the problem I am having seeing them...

I usually just hammer a flat bladed screwdriver in there and then clamp vise grips onto the handle and twist. Isn't that the correct procedure?

 

[ChevyEFI]

anyone run into the five point security torx yet? ran into some yrs ago on a lic. plate, saw the set from 8-60,had to have it, havent used one yet. and what about RIBE?

I've seen both. But only in the Ko-Ken catalog.

 

[Provincial]

I think Torx Plus came out about the time the Torx patent expired. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[kc-steve]

I think Torx Plus came out about the time the Torx patent expired. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

LOL, that could be true! I haven't had trouble with Torx but then again I haven't used them much either. Last time was when I replaced a starter on a Craftsman lawn tractor. I always make sure that fasteners fit properly before applying pressure. Even in the "Great 12-point Socket Debate," I rarely have trouble rounding corners because I am careful about fit.

And yes, I am also a "geezer."

Steve