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Tracing buried wiring / pipes

jwvess00

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2009
Messages
167
Location
Paris, KY
Hi there!

My house was built in 1990, and the previous owners bought it in 1993 and lived here until I bought it in fall 2013. They made quite a few changes over the years including buried wiring and a buried water line. I don't know how much was homeowner-done and how much was done by tradesmen/contractors. Some of it I understand, and some is a mystery.

What methods are available to me to track where this stuff is, and potentially how deep it is? Either DIY or hired to find it are options. I don't know when the work was done, though some of it goes to my shop which was built in 2004. I think an electrician at least ran the power from the house to the shop, but the rest? I don't know.

I know there is a plastic water pipe running from the house to the shop. I know where it exits the crawlspace of my house but I'm not sure where it enters the shop.

I'll be re-doing the drive to the shop, which passes by the house where the meter base, etc. are, and almost certainly crosses some of the buried wiring and water line but I don't know where that stuff is, specifically, and I'm not sure how deep it is. Other than the service entrance power to the house, I do not assume that it's done to code. It may be but I know that the previous owner did not pull any permits to build the shop, which says it was almost certainly not inspected

Here's the side of my house. Take in the loveliness.
house-meter-base.jpg


There's three gray conduits there, plus the meter base. One almost certainly goes to the shop. One goes, I think, to a shed behind the shop (which I think pre-dates the shop) that has power wiring. That wiring is a bit of a mess in that shed. The third conduit, I'm not sure. It might go to the upstairs of my house? The white conduit (which I think is just PVC pipe) goes to the shop and has a single phone line in it.

upstairs-outside-conduit.jpg

My house was built to have the attic space finished but the original owner did not do that. The second owners (from whom I bought the property) had that done by a contractor. I suspect, but don't know, that that's how they ran power to the upstairs? Seems odd but maybe that was easier than trying to pull wire from the attic space to the attached garage where the service panel is. There's no subpanel upstairs that I know of.

Then there's this. A buried conduit just beside the back step off of the attached garage, close to where the meter base is. It has Romex in it, it looks like, and it exits the crawlsapce. I have no idea what this would be powering. No outside landscape lighting, etc. on the property.

outside-garage-conduit-ground.jpg


The mess of phone wiring on the side of the house? I don't know where most of it goes. The house has several phone outlets (which I don't use, I'm cellular-only and sadly there's no DSL or cable TV out here). There are two wires that come out of the ground that end in bare wire. Oh, and they didn't bother to caulk any of the holes where wiring passes through the house.

Last curious photo. Here's the service panel in the garage, which is on the same exterior wall as the meter base. A phone wire-sized wire comes through the wall, goes up, and into the ceiling.

garage-panel-closed.jpg


Aside -- the entire attached garage is covered from floor to ceiling in pegboard. Even the space above the garage door header is pegboard. The ceiling is drywall, but no mud/tape on the joints.

The attic space above the garage is not part of the finished space. I've never been up there. Once I finish remodeling the shop I'll move all of my shop stuff out of the garage and into the shop, and I'll go exploring the garage attic. Right now getting to the attic access would take some effort.

Thoughts?
 
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CNGsaves

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Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
Buy a case of beer and pizza and invite prior owners back to property to give you all the gory details. Research county records on prior owners and track them down.

What you're wanting to do is "harvest" the human "intelligence" . . . or more realistically . . . the house modification history . . . while they are still alive !! :D
 
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jwvess00

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2009
Messages
167
Location
Paris, KY
Hi there!

No can do on the prior owners.

The previous owner was a very-recently-retired couple whose kids have moved away to points unknown (one I think is still in the Army, I think he re-upped just before I bought the house). The husband was a retired game warden who probably did most or all of the work on the property (it was "his" shop where he wrenched on Jeeps). He had been fighting cancer for the last couple of years and I think that explains what I think was recent neglect on the property. Nothing bad, just quite a few home maintenance items that I fixed when I moved in.

He died shortly after they moved out. It was especially a shame since they were starting to build a cabin home in the Dale Hollow Lake area when they sold my house to me. I have a strong feeling that the wife of the couple probably doesn't know much about the property's details.

The first owner built the house but didn't have anything to do with the upstairs or the shop. He was also the real-estate agent that the second owners used to sell the house to me. He might know the name of the contractor that built the upstairs (which I am pretty sure was done without permits either. The work looks okay but I'd prefer it had been permitted/inspected).
 

treylittlefield

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
1
We have a thing called 811 in Alabama, the utility companies will come out and locate power,phone, and gas.
 

bobemmerich

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Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
1,611
Location
Middletown, Ct.
Check the local records for permits. Also find out if the utility can come and trace them. In Ct, we have "Call Before You Dig" # to call and it's free.
 

RPH

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Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
4,190
Location
Michigan Thumb
Miss dig will not locate anything other than their own lines. They will not track your conduits.
 

Kaizen

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Jan 9, 2015
Messages
6,948
Location
New England
Jay ain't homeownership fun? I think you have some diy messes and some pro jobs. The good news is they are in conduit at least. even if they used drain conduit that is not for buried use. Like said 811 is actually really expensive for the companies that have to do it. no they won't do lines like this. You can however hire companies that mark underground utilities. I am guessing it will be fairly expensive as in couple hundred bucks an hour. The have equipment that they put over a pipe/cable and it generates a frequency that they can then pick up. On gas lines that are not metal you'll see they put a tracer wire.
Start with a kids metal detector or see if you can find some old guy and see what he can find for a case of beer. he should be able to pick up the copper. esp if it isn't buried deep.
That power to the 2nd story could have just been laziness. would have been another couple hours maybe to fish wire so they probably went that route.
cheapest thing to do is grab a shovel. you can see approx. witch way they are going by the elbows. go out a few feet and dig. carefully. that will give you rough direction. then I'd dig a trench across the driveway to see if these are shallow. guessing they are a foot or two deep max. hopefully they have tape marking them.

That peg board. rip it all down and start from there. That conduit with a romex in it exposed is waiting for an accident.
The tools listed above will work to figure out where the wires end up. so open that L box and connect to wires and go to garage and see if any wires in there tone. it most likely will not allow you to follow it underground
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
11,948
Location
South of omaha
A couple of bent pieces of wire will get you a rough location,depth will require a shovel though.
Judging from the way the install looks from the parts I can see,Id suggest tearing it out and starting over.;)
 
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jwvess00

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Joined
Jul 25, 2009
Messages
167
Location
Paris, KY
Hi there!

Jay ain't homeownership fun? I think you have some diy messes and some pro jobs.

Yup -- my first house was one I built in '99, so at least I knew who made all of the messes there :)

I'll definitely call 811 before doing any digging with machinery but as others have said, they won't mark stuff that's not owned by the utility. It's necessary but not sufficient.

A former manager and friend of mine's husband is big into metal detectors -- he searches old properties as a hobby. I'll see what he can do or recommend.

I'll search the crawlspace to see where that Romex goes. I'm probably not lucky enough for it to be an abandoned wire...

Beyond that, and possibly trying some of the tools mentioned, it looks like I have a shovel project.

I was given a Sperry CS61200 "Breaker Finder" for Christmas. I know it won't work for finding the wires outside but it will hopefully help with another homeowner investigation. The home's service panel was labeled in cursive :rolleyes: and is not barely legible. There are quite a few additional breakers that aren't labeled or labeled well. For instance, one is labeled "air compressor" but there's no 220 in the attached garage, and the shop has a single 100A feed.
 

coldh2o

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Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,428
Location
Ontario, Canada
A couple of bent pieces of wire will get you a rough location,depth will require a shovel though.

Roughly somewhere on the property is as accurate as you're going to get with that method...

Judging from the way the install looks from the parts I can see,Id suggest tearing it out and starting over.;)

Safer in the long run, for sure.
 

ttopmustanggt88

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2015
Messages
1
Witching gets closer than you might think. We do it weekly and can normally get as close as the 811 locater can. It works. We use brazing rods approx. 10 inches long and a straw on the end so it can move freely.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Jan 11, 2013
Messages
11,948
Location
South of omaha
Roughly somewhere on the property is as accurate as you're going to get with that method...



Safer in the long run, for sure.

I can get within 6" of a trench using 2 bent wires.Thats a hell of a lot better than the utilitie locating guys get with their machines and flags
You have to give them 18" plus half of the width of the utilitie to be safe when you dig,Ill stick with my bent wires.:lol:
 

Todd.Brock

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Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
4,250
Location
Cincinnati
I used a company called underground detective. Www.undergrounddetective.com to trace some pipes in the yard and some sewer pipes. They could tell me exactly where the underground downspout drain from the corner of the house to the street was crushed from roots of a tree. Mark exactly where in the yard and a flag. Beats the hell out of digging and guessing. Witching won't tell you that. It was 200 bucks an hour. They did everything I asked and more in that hour. While not cheap, it saved me a shitload of time. I'm sure there is a similar type company. In your area. Lookup utility locator or even ground penetrating radar
 
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jwvess00

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2009
Messages
167
Location
Paris, KY
Hi there!

I did mostly figure out one of the mysteries In one shot there's some gray conduit not well buried with some Romex in it. I crawled under the house just now, and saw that it runs through the foundation wall, all the way across the house, and out the other side. It powers the heat pump for the upstairs, which was installed about a year before I bought the house (so, probably 2011 or 2012, I'd have to get the paperwork out to know for sure). I don't know if that installation was new or if it was a replacement for an existing unit, but that's what it does. I suspect it goes out, over to where all of that other conduit is, and back into the house to the main service entrance panel.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,038
Location
Modesto, CA
Hi there!

I did mostly figure out one of the mysteries In one shot there's some gray conduit not well buried with some Romex in it. I crawled under the house just now, and saw that it runs through the foundation wall, all the way across the house, and out the other side. It powers the heat pump for the upstairs, which was installed about a year before I bought the house (so, probably 2011 or 2012, I'd have to get the paperwork out to know for sure). I don't know if that installation was new or if it was a replacement for an existing unit, but that's what it does. I suspect it goes out, over to where all of that other conduit is, and back into the house to the main service entrance panel.

Does that conduit with NM-b wire(aka Romex which is a southwire brand) go underground? If so then it needs to be replaced.

If its instead UF-B, which is underground rated cable, then its ok....
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Jan 11, 2013
Messages
11,948
Location
South of omaha
You pay me $1000 if you can't do it on a simple course. If you do it, I'll pay you $6000 to show me how.
It's that easy for you to make back your thousand and get my five thousand.

Three paths 300' long,
One will have live electric in it for the six inches you claim.

We'll do it at a GJ meet up so all can see me lose my five Grand and you find the capacitor or whatever you want buried.

So what time should I expect you?:lol:
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
11,948
Location
South of omaha
A lot of well drillers in my area swear by the witching method to locate water. Interesting enough, I've yet to find one that will pay for a dry well if they are wrong...

Ive hit plenty of stuff over the years that the utilitie company mis locates with their high tech toys,Ive never hit anything using the wires.
I don't know about looking for water with them for a well,but I can find utility trenches every time.;)
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
11,948
Location
South of omaha
Lets do it on the west side of the Missouri river,I wont have to go as far that way!:lol:
Hell Id even use it as an excuse to blow the cobwebs off the ol Hondo and throw a race tune up on it for the party:evil::lol:
 
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