Tree Pushing and Dirt Work Advice Needed

[JamesW84]

Cliff Notes:

Need to push (25) 15-20" oak/18-20" cedar trees in rocky clay soil.
Need to move around 200 yards of mostly clay to make a level pad and drainage

Detailed:

I have an unlevel area to build my shop with about 25 trees to remove including

I got quotes of 8-10k (and one 3.5k) to push the trees and leave them on site, level a pad about 55x65 and do the proper drainage, compact the fill with a sheep's foot compactor and work with the engineer to allow samples (I will deal with the engineer, but they would have to stop working while he does sampling), and bring in about 75-100 ton of gravel

The rearmost side of the area will require about 10 ft of dirt be moved (to a lower area on my property 100 ft away) because it is 5 ft higher and will need 5 feet lower for drainage.

I chose the 3.5k estimate because he works for a customer of mine and I thought he was giving me a good deal because of that (he didn't say that). Who would have thought he wouldn't put it in writing even though I asked for 3 weeks, and had two scheduled times to come that he no-showed (forgot and machine down).

I decided to rent 12,000 lb 55 HP excavator to try to push the trees down myself. I'm in it for a weekly rate, but probably will send it back after 8 hrs because although I've pushed over a few small trees fairly quickly, my rocky clay soil is proving too much for the little 12k mini ex to push over 12" oaks. I've spent 2 hours digging 2 ft down all the way around a couple 15" oaks and they will not even budge.

One of the 8k quote guys said he would push the trees for $800. He said his dozer would just push them over with ease.

Then I'd still have the dirt work to do.

Would I be better off renting a large dozer or track loader to push the trees and dig out/push the extra dirt? I can't get prices on Sunday, but I'd guess the large dozer or track loader is probably 1000 per day, but if I could do it all in one day, then rent a skid steer and sheep's foot to make the pad.

With that math, I'd still save 2-4k, but I'd have to do the work myself, which takes longer. I'd like to get this ball rolling, but I can take a little longer to save a few grand.

Thoughts?

 

[mike93lx]

Are you experienced in operating a larger dozer?

Not sure why you'd rent a machine for 1k when someone will do the work for 800...

 

[theoldwizard1]

Are you experienced in operating a larger dozer?

This ! A pro makes it look easy.

 

[JamesW84]

Are you experienced in operating a larger dozer?

Not sure why you'd rent a machine for 1k when someone will do the work for 800...

I have no experience, but I've done ok with the mini ex.

They will push the trees for 800, but I still have a lot of dirt work to do, which they are quoting at 5500-7500 by doing the math subtracting what the trees, gravel and sheep's foot would cost.

If the dozer or track loader allows me to push the trees and do the rest of the job and save some money, that's what I'm after.

If I paid someone to do everything for me, I'd have to live in an apartment and ride the bus. I'm all about learning new things and I do 90% of everything myself from home remodel, septic, roof, auto repair, etc

 

[lukedwag]

For what's your doing I would suggest a 60,000lb or bigger excavator. Trees are tough especially in that type of soil. An excavator will move he dirt and trees faster then anything else. That is of course with a good operator.

What's your plan for getting the site level ? Do you own a laser ? 75 to 100 tons of material isn't much.

 

[Finky198]

Coming from a Tree Guy. Be smart and let the pro do it. At a min the tree work, but perferably all of it. Jobs like this can get deadly in an instant. Regardless of you skill level.

The fact that you rented a machine and were all ready unsuccessful leads me to believe you do not have the necessary skills, experience, and safety knowledge to tackle this.

Doing general repairs on car and house VS Working with 10000+ lb trees and heavy equipment are in to totally different wheel houses.

Around here I'm Not sure anyone would rent you a machine that big without experience. It'd be to big of an insurance risk.

 

[JamesW84]

For what's your doing I would suggest a 60,000lb or bigger excavator. Trees are tough especially in that type of soil. An excavator will move he dirt and trees faster then anything else. That is of course with a good operator.

What's your plan for getting the site level ? Do you own a laser? 75 to 100 tons of material isn't much.

Thank you for the advice. That is what I'm looking for.

I'm gonna check prices on a larger excavator Monday.

I was thinking either
1) dig out all the dirt with an excavator
OR
2) push the dirt with a dozer

THEN

use a skid steer to level it or the dozer if I get that.

I do have a laser level.

75-100 tons of gravel for pad and drive + 200 yards of clay to move.

If someone else has a better plan of attack that's what i'm looking for.

Basically, I'm ok spending three times the time as a pro if I can save a couple grand. If it looks like it will cost more than a pro, then obviously, that would be a better idea. The $3500 guy said it would take them 10 minutes for the trees. I'm sure he was being sarcastic, but I'm sure a big excavator would just push them over instead of spending hours/days digging around with a smaller unit.

 

[readhead]

You will spend a lot of rental time learning the machine and still not be good at it. The pro is going to unload the machine and go to work. He will probably be done before you learn which levers to pull. As mentioned safety is a huge factor here. You obviously don't have a budget for this build or you would have taken this cost into account. Everyone wants to save money but this probably isn't the place for that.

Ask the guy if he will do the job hourly with a not to exceed amount. You will almost always get a better deal paying hourly on most everything.

 

[JamesW84]

Coming from a Tree Guy. Be smart and let the pro do it. At a min the tree work, but perferably all of it. Jobs like this can get deadly in an instant. Regardless of you skill level.

The fact that you rented a machine and were all ready unsuccessful leads me to believe you do not have the necessary skills, experience, and safety knowledge to tackle this.

Doing general repairs on car and house VS Working with 10000+ lb trees and heavy equipment are in to totally different wheel houses.

Around here I'm Not sure anyone would rent you a machine that big without experience. It'd be to big of an insurance risk.

Thanks. I've not ruled out a pro. I really doubt anyone could do it with this machine. I'm not sure how a pro with this machine would push any harder on the tree with more force. Likewise, with a larger machine, I could push as hard as the pro. I understand it would take longer because I'm not fluent with the controls.

 

[tjdux]

Moving dirt with big toys is easy. Moving dirt exactly where is needs to go is actually much harder than it sounds and getting a decently level site is actually pretty tough.

Im all for diy and learning just understand any issues here will resonate forever in your building. It's no good go save a grand here with dirt work to lose 10 with concrete later. Assuming you're planning to put in a pad. Not trying to discourage just help you think it out.

If it were me i would use this as an excuse to also purchase a nice transit level. Probably one that self levels and sends the measurements to the gauge stick so you can do it by your self. Also maybe rent/buy an outdoor visible laser. The laser will be helpful through the whole build and there's no way to do the dirt work without a transit or at least using the laser as a transit.

If you have never used those items look them up on youtube but basically it shows how much height difference there is from point to point. Its much better than eyeballing it.

I would do it myself too most likely just because im stubborn. My neihbor just paid a guy to do some work that involved dirt work and installing a french drain. The outlet of the drain is a good 3 inches too deep to actually drain anywhere....maybe im too picky but i hate paying for substandard work. i bet those 8k price guys wouldn't leave mistakes like that but who knows

Good luck with it and my advice if you feel over your head don't ne ashamed to find some second opinions.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[alskdjfhg]

With no experience it will assuredly take more time. Make doubly sure this machine has a ROPS and forestry gaurd. You dont want to get squashed because you pushed the wrong way on a widow maker.

I had 5 acres of heavy brush and small tress cleared with a Deere 250G and a thumb. Took a day and a half and I guarantee a dozer would have taken longer. A good operator in a decent sized excavator with a thumb can really move some brush.

Does this dozer have a 4 way or straight blade? 12,000lbs 55hp is really small.

 

[JamesW84]

You will spend a lot of rental time learning the machine and still not be good at it. The pro is going to unload the machine and go to work. He will probably be done before you learn which levers to pull. As mentioned safety is a huge factor here. You obviously don't have a budget for this build or you would have taken this cost into account. Everyone wants to save money but this probably isn't the place for that.

Ask the guy if he will do the job hourly with a not to exceed amount. You will almost always get a better deal paying hourly on most everything.

Thanks. I would think hourly may cause them to move slower?

I have a budget. Unfortunately, I didn't anticipate 10,000 to level the site and push trees. In fact, my budget is why I want to save the money. If I pay 10,000 for dirt work then 10,000 for concrete, I'm not left with much for the rest of the shop.

I guess I need to just call and get quotes on a large excavator rental and delivery and then do the math. If I can't save at least $1000, then I'll hire a pro, but I'm worried about them doing it how I want it and working with the engineer.

I want to use the dirt above the clay, so that means moving it all to one side and moving the clay and putting the good dirt back. I really doubt they'll do that; not for a good rate anyway

 

[EOC_Jason]

Depending on the area if it doesn't matter where the trees fall then a large dozer could just push them over and pile them up for a burn pile easy. Sight unseen I would think it could move all the dirt you mention too with ease, along with grading and compacting a decent amount.

Like other's have said, an experienced operator is key. They get the job done quickly, efficiently, but most importantly correctly. They know what their machine is capable of and how to operate it. They know how to cut and grade and shift material around and while it looks easy, an inexperienced novice usually just ends up "playing in the dirt" and takes twice as long to do half as much.

Sometimes you can find just an operator and he will tell you what size / type machine to rent and go from there.

 

[Finky198]

A pro wouldn't show up to the job with a machine like that in the first place.

That's the difference.

They'd use a bulldozer hopefully with a good overhead safety rack....

It's not nesesssarily the pushing that dangerous. It the possibility of failing limbs or even whole trees. When you impart force on a tree that force travels up the tree but has a slight delay. If their is damage seen or not, a tree could Snap and come crashing down straight on top of the machine.

I've seen it happen right in front of me the guy was a long time pro, wrong tree, wrong place, wrong time. He survived the machine not so much. What fell was over 800lbs at 50ft it just cliped the corner of the cab....

Tree work is dangerous a lot of pros die every year... don't get me started on amateur hour...

 

[JamesW84]

If it were me i would use this as an excuse to also purchase a nice transit level. Probably one that self levels and sends the measurements to the gauge stick so you can do it by your self. Also maybe rent/buy an outdoor visible laser. The laser will be helpful through the whole build and there's no way to do the dirt work without a transit or at least using the laser as a transit.

I'm one step ahead of ya! I got a self-leveling BOSCH laser level.

Does this dozer have a 4 way or straight blade? 12,000lbs 55hp is really small.

It's an IHI 55 hp, 12,000 mini excavator that I have now.

 

[JamesW84]

A pro wouldn't show up to the job with a machine like that in the first place.

That's the difference.

They'd use a bulldozer hopefully with a good overhead safety rack....
.

Yeah, I know that. That's the largest ex the local place had. They said it would do it, but you know how that goes. I got some experience and got some stuff done. I wouldn't call it a total loss. I don't think I'd push huge trees, but the 20" diameter ones that I'm doing aren't huge. I know they're heavy and could kill me, though.

 

[readhead]

The story is changing. You want to stock pile the dirt and put it back. That takes time and more trips or more rental time. I said hourly not to exceed which means you know what the maximum you will pay is but you will probably pay less. Any quality tradesman is a very busy person and doesn't have time to hang out on your job to pad the bill. He is busy and needs to move on to the next job.

 

[Finky198]

Not big you do realize a 20"x18" round of live red oak is just under 250 lbs.

So a 75ft oak is well over 10k not including the root system or the dirt surrounding it..

 

[rburke65]

It all looks easy watching an experienced person ...painting, plastering operating engineer ....until YOU try it. Then it takes 3x as long....we toss in the towel and hire it out. Find out that NOW it will cost and additional 30% because we just f... Up something and they have to correct. I had the the foot print of my shop stripped of topsoil, 340 yards of clay brought in to level and elevate the grade. More than what I wanted to spend but the base was rock hard. Remember it's all in the preperation.

 

[JamesW84]

Not big you do realize a 20"x18" round of live red oak is just under 250 lbs.

So a 75ft oak is well over 10k not including the root system or the dirt surrounding it..

I knew that, but I guess I just don't see how a whole tree would fall on it if you're pushing the other way and have dug the roots first. I understand a large limb/branch could fall, but these machines have cages. We drive 2 ft away from 80,000 lb semi trucks going 70mph every day and don't think anything of it.

I'm not complacent, I understand there is risk. I also think that if I pay attention and not get in a hurry that I can do this twice as slow as a pro.

I guess I just feel like a bunch of pros are beating up on me for trying to do my own work. That may not be the case, but that happens most of the time when you ask about a trade. The drywall pro, roofing pro, mechanic says you shouldn't do that, you're better off to pay someone else.

I don't expect someone to come show me how to run the excavator and where to push for free. I'm asking which machines I should use and why, furthermore in the end, if I'm half speed of the pro, would I save any money. Without rental rates, I understand my costs are still undetermined.

Thanks for all of the opinions. Without knowing someone else's abilities, I too would be reluctant to suggest they push trees down.

 

[Firebrick43]

Cages won't save you in every case. My father did a lot of work in the woods at one time with a d7 dozer with a forestry cage. One summer two of his friends that had similar cages died when both (in seperate incidents) had branches come in the cage and kill them.

This prompted him to buy a large excavator as they are somewhat safer to push over with. Dad has since retired and sold off the equipment. Even though I grew up running one, it was cheaper for me to hire out the excavation of my 1400' basement than renting one.

 

[Radix2]

I think pushing over mature 20 in oak trees needs some big equipment that is not going to be cost effective to rent. Or if using Small equipment and undermining it is unnecessarily dangerous. You have to be right on top of it to push, the energy involved is huge and how the rootball is going to act is unknown, maybe you don't get hurt, maybe you do $10,000 in damage to the machine...

Cut the trees down leaving a decent height of trunk for leverage. Get a full sized backhoe or small ex and dig the stumps out. Pick your poison on how you want to do the pad based on your situation- something with a bucket or pushing based on access and space.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Hire it out before something happens. It's not as easy as watching YouTube and going out back and trying it

 

[JerryB]

First, no one around here would try to push whole oak trees over. They are extremely heavy, subject to dropping limbs when disturbed and pretty well attached to the earth. Last thing you want is to have a limb or whole tree fall on you and the machine while you are trying to dig around a root!

I've cleared quite a bit of oak forested land. The sequence is to first drop the trees, leaving stumps that are just tall enough to push on. In my locale, the oak wood has significant value as fire wood, and (depending on the size and location of the trees) a firewood supplier will often do the falling, bucking and wood removal in trade for getting the wood.

Next, a fairly large machine like a Cat is used to dig around and push the stumps out. Obviously some digging is required, dependent on the root structure, but oak roots will usually come out pretty easily. The ability to put force on the stump is most important. IMO, this is not a job for an excavator.

Same with the amount of dirt you are talking about moving: While an excavator can easily do minor backfilling, grading and other dirt work, this is really work best done by a Cat. You also get better compaction with the heavier machine.

Having the appropriate machine and the skill to use it is paramount to doing a good job safely!

 

[ozyborn]

Nobody has mentioned explosives yet? Darn......... yea. Safety first. Contact a saw mill. They will know guys that can cut down the Trees and remove the stumps. Then mill the logs into lumber, kiln dry, and you have wood.

 

[WhiffySpark]

First, no one around here would try to push whole oak trees over. They are extremely heavy, subject to dropping limbs when disturbed and pretty well attached to the earth. Last thing you want is to have a limb or whole tree fall on you and the machine while you are trying to dig around a root!

I've cleared quite a bit of oak forested land. The sequence is to first drop the trees, leaving stumps that are just tall enough to push on. In my locale, the oak wood has significant value as fire wood, and (depending on the size and location of the trees) a firewood supplier will often do the falling, bucking and wood removal in trade for getting the wood.

Next, a fairly large machine like a Cat is used to dig around and push the stumps out. Obviously some digging is required, dependent on the root structure, but oak roots will usually come out pretty easily. The ability to put force on the stump is most important. IMO, this is not a job for an excavator.

Same with the amount of dirt you are talking about moving: While an excavator can easily do minor backfilling, grading and other dirt work, this is really work best done by a Cat. You also get better compaction with the heavier machine.

Having the appropriate machine and the skill to use it is paramount to doing a good job safely!

We can drop trees all day long with an excavator. I prefer them over anything else.

I don't know why anyone would trade tree removal for fire wood. I see that advertised all the time and it makes me scratch my head lol. We dropped two small trees before lunch. Why would I mess with selling the wood instead for $150 a cord after paying a guy to split it all, sit on it for a year, load it again and then deliver it? Sure that's extra money. But it's not going to offset the tree removal cost

 

[A_Pmech]

Pushing over trees is the easy part.

Actually making a pad flat and level enough to pour a foundation... That's the hard part.

 

[JamesW84]

First, no one around here would try to push whole oak trees over. They are extremely heavy, subject to dropping limbs when disturbed and pretty well attached to the earth. Last thing you want is to have a limb or whole tree fall on you and the machine while you are trying to dig around a root!

The couple I was able to push over were 8-12" and really not bad. They go over slowly by pushing, but only after digging around the sides. The tap root holds them and kept those from moving without force applied.

The guys who I called were seriously going to push them over without felling them. Using the whole tree, you get better leverage. I'd feel safer using a large excavator vs a dozer.

I'm gonna watch some tree pushing fails to make sure I see some different possibilites.

Nobody has mentioned explosives yet? Darn......... yea. Safety first. Contact a saw mill. They will know guys that can cut down the Trees and remove the stumps. Then mill the logs into lumber, kiln dry, and you have wood.

This is worth pursuing I think. I called a few mills (the closest I found is about an hour and a half away) before about one large 32" diameter tree and they didn't have any interest, but If I told them I have 20 various 12-20" oak trees, they may be interested so they can get a full load.

 

[rookie1901]

Important to remove all stumps from under pad. Even the ones you don't know are there.
A good excavator operator can get a lot of work done in one day. IMO nothing smaller than a Cat 316 with thumb attachment. If you have room, cut down the trees and drag them out of the way. A good sawyer can cut and delimb a lot of trees in a day. To save money you could burn the limbs and clean up.

Would help if you could post pictures showing trees and terrain.

 

[JamesW84]

YES! I'm worried about someone else caring enough to remove all the roots also. I just have a hard time trusting people will do things correctly. The engineer said I shouldn't use the red clay under the other 2 topsoil and 2nd layer of dirt, but rather use the 2nd layer since clay expands. I don't think anyone else would care enough to do it this way, rather they would just shove it all wherever to make it level.

My slab floor on my house is cracking all over. Probably from tree roots and/or red clay.

One before picture (I have many) and one since I started.

 

[JamesW84]

Couple more

 

[B.C.Biker]

Did the pad for a 30x46 on an acreage I own. Needed to take out 25 big fir trees. They were dangerously close to a powerline so hired a faller with proper insurance and permits to work next to the lines. Cost me $500. Friend of mine is going to saw the logs for me so can subtract a bit from that number.
Bought an older Case 580 backhoe. By the time it was delivered cost me $4,500. Used it to dig out the stumps and strip topsoil off. Also dug out the foundation with it.
Bought an older 454 International farm tractor with a FEL and 7 foot back blade. Used it for the pad also. Cost me $3,500.
Borrowed a laser level. Cost me a dozen beers.
Out of pocket about the same as your quotes but when I wake up tomorrow there will still be two paid for machines parked in the pole shed. ( that was built also using these machines.) Took me longer than a "pro" for sure but I enjoyed the experience and got to do fiddly details without added costs.
Another angle to consider if you will have any use for machines in the future for driveways, parking ect.

 

[JerryB]

We can drop trees all day long with an excavator. I prefer them over anything else.

I don't know why anyone would trade tree removal for fire wood. I see that advertised all the time and it makes me scratch my head lol. We dropped two small trees before lunch. Why would I mess with selling the wood instead for $150 a cord after paying a guy to split it all, sit on it for a year, load it again and then deliver it? Sure that's extra money. But it's not going to offset the tree removal cost

I think we are talking about somewhat different things. Like you wrote, no one I know would do land clearance for the firewood, but getting rid of the huge volume of trunk wood, limbs and leaves presents a real problem here. Especially for smaller properties and for properties where they are going to plant grapes or other permanent crops.

As to firewood pricing / cost: We have two primary firewood operators here. One guy is a small operator, probably cutting and delivering 150 cords / year. He charges $350 / cord. The other is a much larger operator, selling around 1000 cords / year. He charges $400 / cord. They share a common problem: Availability of standing oak wood. Getting a (firewood) logging permit here in the People's Republic of California is really difficult, but clearing an area that is already permitted for some kind of construction or ag conversion operation usually does not require a separate permit.

I wouldn't want to be using an excavator to try to push over a 24" to 36" diameter by 60' to 100' tall oak tree. Especially if it sheds a limb while being pushed, but suppose it can be done with a big enough machine. The next question is what do you do with it after it is pushed over? Illegal to put it in the creek, and in the way of any ag or building operation. That's why most construction sites with white oak or coastal oak trees are clear cut first, with the usable (fire) wood moved out, then the stumps removed and burned on site along with the brush prior to start of construction.

Reading the recent posts, it is obvious that the trees being discussed are much small than what I was writing about! I see why an excavator might be the machine of choice for the smaller trees.

 

[kmacht]

If you have the money, buy a good used backhoe. Drop the trees with a saw, cut up whatever is big enough for firewood and make burn piles with the rest. Use the backhoe to dig around the remaining stump and pop them out. Any full size backhoe will easily pop oak tree stumps in the size you are talking about after digging around them. A thumb on the backhoe helps a lot. Sell the firewood to re-coup some of your cost. If you don't want the hassle of splitting and delivering there are usually people around that will come pick up the green rounds for a cheaper price. Around here they would go for about $100 a chord. If you split and season the wood it will go for $200 to $250 a chord. Prices vary a lot depending where you live so look into that first.

After the stumps are out you can then use the backhoe to move all the dirt you need. Once the job is done you can sell the backhoe and re-coup most of your costs. A used backhoe doesn't really depreciate in value as long as you take care of it. The downside to the above plan is that it requires a lot of your time. I also suspect that when the job is done you will have found more uses for the backhoe and will not want to sell it.

Keith

 

[cj7jeep81]

I also think you'll have trouble renting a large enough excavator. There's a local place I use to rent equipment, and they rent the big stuff as well. However, you have to have proof of insurance coverage ($1,000,000), and have them listed as a loss payee. I'd imagine that's pretty standard. Looks like their big excavators go for $900-$1200 a day depending on size, and no clue how much delivery would run. Here's their site if you want to check prices.

www.artsrental.com

 

[Walter_TA]

When I made the pad for my building. I found a local guy, he was great. He had a large backhoe, a dozer and a bobcat. If you make a pad you have to compact the dirt every 6 to 8 inches. I was going to get a large compactor, the kind it takes a flatbed to bring in. He used the doser to compact, and move the dirt. He used the backhoe to dig the stumps and push over the trees. I raised the low corner 6 feet, ie 40 trucks of fill. If you do not compact with large equipment you will have to wait 3 years to be sure you are good to go. I think to do what you want you will need equipment like that. If you had two people I think you could get it done in a week. one to operate the excavator one to operate the compactor. If you get someone to do it "Pay cash it is cheaper ;-) ".

 

[alskdjfhg]

He used the doser to compact, and move the dirt.

While this is pretty common, you shouldn't use tracked equipment to compact. While A narrow track machine can have a reasonably high ground preasure, a loaded dump truck will have more. And a real compactor will be faster, neater and more consistent than either of those.

 

[Walter_TA]

The dozer did well at compacting. He would roll up and back. The material was rough shale and he broke the big pieces into little ones. There were several heavy rains after it was built and nothing moved. If you built the pad correctly a dozer will do a good job of compacting. I am sure it was better than a dump truck. That being said, I am sure a compactor will be faster, and more consistent. The guy who did my work was an artist, so not sure about the neater.

 

[readhead]

If he told me he would was going to compact with a dozer I would have said thanks for coming by and started quizzing the next guy.

 

[Firebrick43]

If he told me he would was going to compact with a dozer I would have said thanks for coming by and started quizzing the next guy.

+1

A track type tractor has little ground pressure. Only if the tractor was pulling a Sheeps foot would I accept it