Tree Pushing and Dirt Work Advice Needed

[JamesW84]

I also think you'll have trouble renting a large enough excavator. There's a local place I use to rent equipment, and they rent the big stuff as well. However, you have to have proof of insurance coverage ($1,000,000), and have them listed as a loss payee. I'd imagine that's pretty standard. Looks like their big excavators go for $900-$1200 a day depending on size, and no clue how much delivery would run. Here's their site if you want to check prices.

www.artsrental.com

I called today about a track hoe/excavator. It would be 700/day or 2100/wk + 300 delivery and I'd have to have a 1,000,000 insurance policy THAT PAYS ON RENTAL CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT. He said they don't rent equipment to push trees for the very concerns some have said - falling on the equipment.

My insurance agent said they can't write a policy to cover construction equipment for personal policies, but they could for a business, which would take at least a week and a half because it would have to go through underwriters. He said a min. of probably 500-600 if I cancel early (one month).

I then called one of the original guys and he is coming back out this week to look at it again.

I was going to call a logger, but I'd be ok keeping the wood.

I have 8 acres, so I'd have room to push the trees and cut them up later.

Some friends have said drop the trees and grind the stumps.

I've been looking at backhoes to do the dirt work. Most look like $10,000 +. I'm not averse to working on one, but I don't have much time to do that as I'm spending all my time planning this shop and figuring out how to get it dried in before winter by myself.

With an estimate of 8000
Drop trees = 800
Rent Sheeps foot = 600 (est)
Gravel + Delivery = 1600-2000
Dirt work = 4600-5000

I'm thinking about asking him to quote just pushing the dirt into seperate piles (topsoil, middle, red clay) and then I could rent a skid steer and move it where I want it and compact. That's what I'm most worried about.

My county requires any fill be "engineered" and use an engineer. The engineer is ok with 12" lifts, but it must be compacted to 95% and he recommended I use the "brown" middle layer dirt and as little of the red clay as I can to prevent heaving. That is what I'm trying to do. I'd like to compact on 6" lifts and have him test on 12" lifts.

Firewood around here is $140-150/cord delivered, so selling it is not a good payback especially since I burn wood.

 

[alskdjfhg]

Your gonna want to get as many roots out from under the pad as possible. They will caused settling over time as they roots deconpose.

No harm in compacting in smaller lifts, only thing that matters is the compaction test. 12" is a big lift.

If your actually gonna do one.

How big is your pad and what is the thickness? Those prices seem kinda low to me.

 

[JamesW84]

Your gonna want to get as many roots out from under the pad as possible. They will caused settling over time as they roots deconpose.

No harm in compacting in smaller lifts, only thing that matters is the compaction test. 12" is a big lift.

If your actually gonna do one.

How big is your pad and what is the thickness? Those prices seem kinda low to me.

Engineer said he was ok with 12" lifts. I'm of your view, smaller wouldn't hurt and actually be better the way I'm thinking. If i'm doing it myself, I can control that and not feel like I'm hounding someone.

I feel like I need to do this the legal way w/ the compaction test. I'd hate to spend all this money on a shop and then have to tear it down due to the insufficent soil compaction.

The CONCRETE pad will be 16x64 for a total 32x64 shop w/ an additional 20x64 overhang/lean to. I plan to go 5" thick, but not sure what that has to do with this at the moment. My DIRT pad will be the same plus the room around to drive up and also drainage.

The stupid thing is I have a semi flat area right in front this, but I just don't want a shop this size that close to the house

 

[MagKarl]

Buy a good used backhoe or excavator, sell it if you have to after you're done with the project, not just the grade work. You will find many other uses for it.

 

[TractorJeff]

SheepsFoot? Most around here come in with a vibrating roller to compact as every time you turn towing a SheepsFoot, it tears up the ground.
If the Contractors Track Hoe doesn't have an Articulating Thumb to grab the tree or limbs, then all a Hoe will be able to do is dig to cut the roots and push it over. Another machine will be required to move them out of the Hoes way.
IMO: A large Track Loader (CAT 953) would them be more effective as it will dig down to cut the roots, then push the tree over and pick it up to move it out of the way!
It will also cut your soil layer off and pile, then your dirt layer and finally cut the clay to the depth you want!

 

[sean Buick 76]

Why not cut the tree down then use an excavator to remove the stump?

 

[JamesW84]

I had the 8000 original bid guy come back out (Brad). I asked him to quote tree removal. $1000 (I added about 10 cedars to the original order)

I then asked him how much it would be to move all of the topsoil in the roughly 100x100 area. Then move the 2nd layer, then move the clay. He would then be done and I would use a skid steer or similar to move it how I wanted it. He said $3000, which sounds fair.

I think I've all but decided to just have him to move the trees only.

I've been looking at used 35 yr old backhoes for $9000-12000. As mentioned, I could use it for some other projects, dig my footings, dig the trench for the electrical, and other things. Sell it later if I can't afford to keep it. We'll see. I'd like to go look at one, but the guy hasn't called me back.

I think I'll rent a Vibratory trench roller with the pad feet for $360/day. https://www.hercrentals.com/content/herc/en/rentals/compaction-paving/trench-rollers.html

I did some soil testing yesterday since the engineer is on vacation. I took some of the red clay and some of the brown soil above it and put 2 samples of each in the oven to dry. The red clay cracked while the brown did not. I then watered both. The red clay expanded (adimittedly very little) back out and filled the cracks. I guess at the end of the day it's not a ton, certainly not bulging out of the container. I gotta get the roots out anyway, so I might as well just use the best soil. The USGS soil info shows the red clay is 6-8% elastic. It just doesn't sit right.

My fear is that I will not get my shop dried in by winter. He can drop the trees next week, so if I can get a backhoe and get my part done by the end of July, Concrete in August and begin framing in September, maybe if I can take a few weeks off this fall I could at least get the roof on.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Your gonna want to get as many roots out from under the pad as possible. They will caused settling over time as they roots deconpose.

ABSOLUTELY ! When the roots rot, the concrete will cave in. Stumps have to go.

 

[ard]

Stumps yes, roots IMO will not create an issue. (Unless you are leaving masses of 6-8 inch ROOTS under large areas of the foundation.



Funny OT story...

Was getting a bunch of tractor work done- riding arena put in. There was a sinkhole in the pasture that the wife wanted filled in. Tractor guy said sure, no prob- we will open it a bit and drop in some spare dirt. Work went on for a week.

Came up to the house and said 'about that hole- looks like there is a stump in there, you want us to dig it out? "Yes please"

4 hrs later, he comes up to the house and says "We have a situation"

Head down to the pasture- his backhoe/excavator is barely visible out of the ground, there are 8 stumps sitting on the ground. He says 'there are probaly another 20 there"

I said might as well get them all.

Welp. 3 DOUBLE transfer loads later- and here in CA you pay by the stump to get rid of these- it was done. $10k extra. ******** developer in 1990 buried all the stumps from 7 miles of roads in a ravine on my property- never told me.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Back hoe is pretty lousy for dirt work to be honest with you. A skid is a lot better choice.

 

[ard]

Why not cut the tree down then use an excavator to remove the stump?

Ive been wondering this for 3 pages....

 

[WhiffySpark]

Ive been wondering this for 3 pages....

Leverage. They pop out really easy when you push the whole tree over

 

[Firebrick43]

Back hoe is pretty lousy for dirt work to be honest with you. A skid is a lot better choice.

Huh?

A wheeled skid steers **** for dirt work and would take an excellent operator to maintain grade at any rate of production. The only places they shine is in tight city and subdivision lots. And for large trees a skid steer is useless. The wheel base is to short and they pitch bad on uneven ground. They were originally designed for and still excell at moving lose material on hard pads.

A track skid steer is pretty good at moving and grading dirt and a mediocre operator can still do some pretty good work but still worthless for big trees. They work awesome at cleaning up small trees in pastures with a 8" spade bucket. But a tracked machine is likely out of the OP budget.

A loader backhoe is going to be the best of compromises for the op but I would still hire out the tree and stump removal.

 

[CGT80]

Good equipment operators are used to moving and sorting dirt and building pads with engineered soil. It is what they do. I helped my brother overex and build a pad for a 3-4000 foot home addition. We overexed 18 inches and then filled in 6" lifts and I ran approx. a 54" sheepsfoot roller on it. We had a small roller, but it broke down and they sent out the bigger one. Bigger is better. The small machine beat the **** out of me and didn't cover nearly as much area or compact as well. For a 100'x100' area, I would not want a small unit.

We had an engineer come out for samples as we worked. I can move dirt with a machine, but **** at being fast or efficient. My brother is a natural and runs right over the markers and just fluffs the feathers up to the surface, without ripping them out with the bucket or blades. Of course, he bids multi million dollar jobs all the time and runs the jobs and crews. One of his recent jobs was removing a few thousand eucalyptus trees and grinding them.

Cutting and moving large amounts of dirt with a skip loader *****. In some ground, such as the house I helped him with, a 2' bucket on a 45,000 pound excavator was hardly enough to cut through the clay. We had to dig down 10-12 feet on a hill for the double garage foundation. The second floor could be accessed from the street and the first floor was accessed from the lower back yard, with parking on both levels. The corner of the lot had a 13' cut into a hill, for a retaining wall. The skip loader was only good for the top few feet of soil. I think the dozer they used was a D4 and it had a 6 way blade. It was far more effective at ripping and contouring the lot than the skip loader. The skid steer was just for cleaning up debris, working in tight areas, and doing clean up work on the dirt.

I understand being stuck with a budget, but I have learned enough from my brother to understand how tough grading projects can be, even though they look easy on the surface. Good luck with how ever you choose to tackle it.

 

[rburke65]

Prior to my. Uite Iwas looking for some "direction" on a shop base. Guy I worked with said he would push topsoil to one side and bring in clay to level and elevate pad. Said they build damns out of clay and water would not travel up through it. Sound reasonable to me. Previous builder wanted to bring in sand! I've never seen dry sand in my life. Clay base was hard as a rock. Between lifts he told me to wet it down and run over it with my SUV or tractor. Super hard. Builders attempted to drive pointed 2x4"s into base to brace studied walls but had to use concrete form steel rods.

 

[JamesW84]

Ive been wondering this for 3 pages....

I'm not going to fell trees with a chainsaw due to a previous bad experience. Many would wonder why I would try to push them down. Stupid I guess

Found what sounds like a decent deal on a backhoe, but the guy never answers his phone. He called me back Fri and said he would call or text when we could meet Saturday but haven't heard a peep since.

I can still rent a skid steer for final grading if I need to. I'll have to check around for larger sheeps foot/pad foot compactors.

The guy is going to come knock the trees down Thursday.

I'm thinking of building a large "sifter" or screen to dump my dirt through to get the big roots out of it. I know I'm doing things way overkill, but I don't think that would be hard to make and would give me some peace of mind.

 

[HunterDan]

I cleared over 100 poplar trees from around my house/barn last year. Most were 75-100' tall. I used a 16k lb mini ex. With a thumb. Rented it for a week, took some time off work and went to town. Dangerous, yes, but if you know what you are doing, and are vigilant, it's the easiest way.

I dug a few feet down on 3 sides of the tree (left, right, and the side I was pushing from) raised the arm as high as it went, and pushed them down. Popped the root balls right up. I got out, bucked the limbs off and cut the root ball off, drug the trunk out into the yard and made a pile of full size logs.

I put the root ball off to the side, back filled the hole and on to the next one. The blade on the machine was super nice for carrying the root balls, with the bucket/thumb, you can hold the root ball up on the blade and drive the machine to where you want. I made a super nice brush pile in the woods with them.

I called the local logger, he came in with his log truck, cut the logs down to size and took them to the mill and he Took a 1/4 of what the mill gave him For everything. Few hundred bucks, I had a friend come in with his bobcat and a grapple and move off all the big brush into the woods and my brush pile. I rough graded with my tractor and made a burn pile for everything left. Once that was gone, friend came back with his skid steer and a Harley take, finish graded everything, and then I seeded/spread 25 bales of hay by hand.


Long post, but what I'm trying to say, if you have common sense, it can be done....or maybe I just got lucky not killing myself....or crushing my house or barn

 

[willymakeit]

Push trees over and cut the. Stumps if you want to save. Usually loggers won't touch trees if they are close to old houses or barns. Metal in them. Dig a hole and burn them when it starts raining. Will need a burn permit in Spfld.
Your clay should have some chirt unless it is extremely fatty clay. I wouldn't go over 8'' lifts if it was me. Your engineer can do proctor's and density for you.
Does your contractor have a water truck to keep the moisture right while compacting?
Build your pad with a slight crown so it will drain and then finish building pad with clean rock.