Trenton Anvil Question

[G-ManBart]

Hey guys,

I want/need an anvil, and have started looking for one, but I'm not in any rush. I don't have any specific requirements just yet, but I'm interested in maybe learning to do some basic blacksmithing work in the future, so figure I should get something decent.

I just noticed this Trenton listed on CL and it's not far from me (they're asking $1,100 for it) They say it's 340lbs and dates to 1910, but from some other info I've found, it seems like the date may be off. I've read that Trenton made them in two halves and then welded them together, so I'd expect to see evidence of the weld, but this looks different from others I've seen. It looks like it was broken in half at the factory weld, and then welded back together with a big stick welder. Aside from the weld beads, the rest of it looks pretty nice.

Has anybody seen a Trenton that looked similar in the waist? I'm asking as much to learn about the brand in general, as the specific anvil, so feel free to fire away with related comments. Thoughts?

 

[Mohawk Dave]

Huh? No.

They forge weld the hard plate at the top to the anvil.

I've never seen an anvil broke and welded like that. How the hell does that even happen? Run away.

I have a 190 and a 250 # Trenton. Keep looking friend.

 

[G-ManBart]

Huh? No.

They forge weld the hard plate at the top to the anvil.

I've never seen an anvil broke and welded like that. How the hell does that even happen? Run away.

I have a 190 and a 250 # Trenton. Keep looking friend.

I'm not saying this one wasn't broken, but Trenton anvils were all made in two pieces according to all the documentation I've seen.

From what I've read they used forge welding up until around 1930 and then switched to electro-welding from that point forward. I've found many pictures of Trenton's that show evidence of a weld at the waist that was cleaned up with a grinder or something similar. Similarly, I've found lots of pictures of Trentons that were obviously broken at the waist and then repaired...which is what seems likely with this one.

This thread covered the topic pretty well:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/trenton-anvil-322336/

 

[drivesitfar]

GMan: feel free to email me if you have any questions about anvils. i don't know everything and i'm still learning and i'm currently anvilless in Seattle. I have owned maybe 6 of them from 75 to 177 pounds and have some things i look for.

as far as that big anvil you are looking for i'd PASS on it and run like Dave mentioned. that Weld doesn't look like any factory weld i've ever seen.

also it sounds like you want a good anvil so make sure it rings true and the edges are not chipped off from hitting it with cold steel. yes you should only hit on an anvil when it's warmed up or if it has hot steel you are pounding on otherwise use some RR track which i have plenty of if you might need a chunk or two.

good luck and i agree take your time and you'll find a keeper when you are maybe looking at a vise or machine you like. they usually sit under benches and in corners of old shops so keep your eyes peeled for one not being used.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

Wow. Definitely learned a lot reading that. Thanks!

There's a thread on here somewhere, where I think it may have been Black Frog dated my anvils to 1915? and 1919? and neither has that weld. I stripped them down and painted them, so I got a very close look.

Either way, neat read.

 

[1982fxr]

I've had anvils welded at the waist like that...but not like that

 

[Cruzan80]

Not all anvils ring. You are really looking at the springback, and how much of the force goes into the metal, vs the anvil. I have a Vulcan that makes a thud sound. Not the highest end anvil, but works great for me. And the lack of ring keeps the neighbors happy.

 

[HMCFab9]

Keep looking. That price is way high!

If you are on Facebook, there is a page called "Blacksmithing for beginners".
I'm on it & there are a Lot of helpful people on there.

There is also a "blacksmithing for beginners" "Tailgate page". That is a good place to look for blacksmith items for sale, or post a pic of the anvil you are looking at to get helpful input on it.

They can also hook you up with others interested in the same thing.
ABANA is a good page. AnvilFire is another good one.

 

[Canoe50]

I'd post it over on iforgeiron & see what those folks say about it. In the past I went there a lot & those guys really know their stuff on anvils and/or blacksmithing. I found it to be one of the best sites for blacksmithing.
As far as price, I wouldn't call $3 a pound way high, especially on one that big.
Just my $.02.

 

[G-ManBart]

Thanks for the replies everyone! As I said, I'm not in any sort of rush, and found this interesting more than anything and have thought about posting it over on AnvilFire as well. In doing some more reading I've found threads on a couple of forums talking about other Trenton anvils that separated at the original waist area factory weld, and had to be repaired, but none looked like this. Some of the comments from the experienced folks seemed to indicate they've seem this happen with a number of Trenton anvils over the years.

What's interesting with the one from the CL add is it doesn't appear to have any of the normal Trenton markings (hard to say since the pictures aren't great on one side) and there's always the possibility it was sold as a second without their stamp. I've read that companies would do that normally when they found dead spots on the face, but I guess it could have been if they were unhappy with the weld at the waist....guess it's possible.

Honestly, once into the $1K plus range I'd seriously consider just buying a new anvil from one of the remaining good companies...something like a Nimba Centurion (260lbs and $1800), but if I could find something decent used locally that would be sort of fun too

 

[drivesitfar]

GMan & ALL: it was mentioned that all anvils might not ring and still be good working anvils. if you drop a steel ball on an anvil from a foot above it and it doesn't bounce up at least half way i'd pass on it if it wasn't a give away price. most of the great anvils have a 90% return so if you drop from a foot and it bounces back a foot that's 100% so ill let you do the math.

anyway i really would be skeptical of an anvil that doesn't have a ring because if an anvil happened to be in a barn when it burned down (or a shop or garage) that would ruin the anvil's temper.

i'm not going to say i'm an EXPERT on anvils because i'm still learning so if anybody that is an EXPERT disagrees with what i post please do tell us what if anything i posted is not correct.

there was a great blacksmith thread in the fabrication section and hopefully the member hasn't passed, but we haven't seen him posting in almost a year now and he said he was sick. here's the link and he made some AMAZING stuff.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5888884#post5888884

 

[Black Frog]

This Trenton had been repaired at the waist. Later Trentons were indeed arc welded at the waist, but that is not a factory job. Trentons, more than any other brand, had some anvils break at the waist.

It may have been a good repair job, and that anvil could easily last another 100 years.

 

[Cruzan80]

Regarding ringing (stole from another site):

HOWEVER certain anvils don't ring but are still good anvils: Fisher and Vulcan anvils for example; they have a steel face but a cast iron body. my main shop anvil is a massive Fisher and it works very well indeed and so very quietly! This is why we advise the ball bearing test to check for the hardness of the face---you can have an excellent brand of anvils but it could have been through a fire and lost it's hardening and so no longer a great anvil and now be at the lower end of usable anvils. (Cost of rehardening an anvil can be large and danger of damage while doing so also a possibility).

So if it's a "ringing anvil" check for ring; if it's not then don't. Check *ALL ANVILS* for rebound!

So we are in agreement on the rebound. If an anvil is in a fire hot enough to ruin the temper on a hardened top/cast body, it is hot enough to damage any anvil.