Trim - Mitered Reterns

[robs400]

I have decided to take the plunge and attempt to do the molding on the inside of my entire house, as it currently has none. I have my first window just about complete and went with mitered returns on the bottom apron and some small crown molding around the header.

These are very small pieces, they simply close the gap between the wall and the 45 deg. miter on the face trim. I tried sending a small brad nail thru it (18 gage 5/8" lg) but it either splits or entirely cracks the small trim piece.

I attempted gorilla glue as these pieces dont weight much and it says is has a 30 second cure time. I tried several joints with different amounts of glue and none of them even tried to hold.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[fountain]

Pin nailer also does a great job in that application.

 

[skamp]

I have decided to take the plunge and attempt to do the molding on the inside of my entire house, as it currently has none. I have my first window just about complete and went with mitered returns on the bottom apron and some small crown molding around the header.

These are very small pieces, they simply close the gap between the wall and the 45 deg. miter on the face trim. I tried sending a small brad nail thru it (18 gage 5/8" lg) but it either splits or entirely cracks the small trim piece.

I attempted gorilla glue as these pieces dont weight much and it says is has a 30 second cure time. I tried several joints with different amounts of glue and none of them even tried to hold.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

Use a 23ga pin nailer. I just used a pin nailer to attach trim to a mirror surround and some of the pieces were small and delicate. The pin nailer will hold the piece in place so the glue can dry. A pin nailer will not hold the piece on well without glue. This is the one I bought.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049ZBOUM/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Steve

 

[rlitman]

Use a 23ga pin nailer.

Yep. 18 gauge brads are too big for this, but pins are perfect. You can shoot a couple of pins from each side, so they criss cross each other.

 

[Camper]

I have done it with regular yellow glue and used painters tape to hold it till the glue dried...

 

[WQ59B]

I generally use caulk on both back sides (painted trim)- holds fine, and you're going to caulk the edges of everything anyway.

 

[JakeKohl]

I have decided to take the plunge and attempt to do the molding on the inside of my entire house, as it currently has none. I have my first window just about complete and went with mitered returns on the bottom apron and some small crown molding around the header.

These are very small pieces, they simply close the gap between the wall and the 45 deg. miter on the face trim. I tried sending a small brad nail thru it (18 gage 5/8" lg) but it either splits or entirely cracks the small trim piece.

I attempted gorilla glue as these pieces dont weight much and it says is has a 30 second cure time. I tried several joints with different amounts of glue and none of them even tried to hold.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

I've never been impressed with Gorilla glue - it makes an impossible mess and it doesn't seem to hold up as well as standard cheap 'ol yellow wood glue. It also takes forever to cure - where yellow wood glue is mostly holding within 20 to 30 minutes. One point of interest, gorilla glue is a moisture cured polyurethane glue. If you wet the surfaces, the glue will foam up slightly and fill gaps better. More water makes more foam....which is good for gap filling. However, the glue is so inflexible that I think it tends to break itself loose with general expansion contraction. However, if you're gluing polyurethane foam to polyurethane foam (sign board), it's the ONLY way to go.

You didn't mention if you are painting or going for a wood finish - but a good painters caulk will actually hold these pieces very well too if you are painting. If you can't pin nail it, you'll have to use tape to hold it in place while glue/caulk cures.

 

[czr12x]

i got that same pin nailer.... its nice.

 

[buddyboy]

+1 on the pins

or you can also use spring mitre clamps... do a google search it might be worth it to get a set if you're going to trim out your whole house.

that way you can use a combo of yellow glue, pins and clamps

 

[rlitman]

I have done it with regular yellow glue and used painters tape to hold it till the glue dried...

Unless you're doing something really special with wood, so long as you can get good close contact between the two pieces, yellow wood glue is still the best wood glue money can buy.

Still, I try not to use any glue on my trim work. Too much effort to take things apart later, and I usually apply trim after painting, so I don't want to deal with glue drips. If you can use the pin nailer on trim miters, do it. It is just too easy.

About Gorilla glue. They make at least three different types of glue under that brand now (plus the duct tape, etc). There's the original polyurethane glue that foams. There's a new version that doesn't foam that much, and they also sell a cyanoacrylate.
The only one I know of with the "30 second cure time" is the cyanoacrylate.

Now cyanoacrylate is interesting. That stuff has some good uses, but the really short advertised cure times are still pretty much a fantasy. BUT, go to the hobby shop and buy some "Zip kicker", or equivalent cyanoacrylate accelerant. Apply the CA glue to the joint and hold the joint shut. CLOSE the bottle of CA (or the contamination from the accelerant will shorten the life of your bottle of glue), and give the joint a light spray of the accelerant. The glue will harden in an instant. 1 second MAX. Really.

Now it is nowhere near as strong as yellow wood glue, but there are times when it's nice to know you can pinch a part shut, give it a spray, and it is glued right then and there.

There are radio frequency induction machines that actually do the same thing to yellow wood glue, but they cost a small fortune.

 

[Kevin54]

Ditto on the pin nailer. I used one to put all of our trim up.

We changed all of our doors and trim out from the stained, contractor trash mouldings (3" baseboards and 2 1/2" jamb trim) to 5 1/2" baseboard and beaded jamb trim that is all white. For areas that had small gaps, we (my wife) went around with white Latex caulk and finished it all out. I also saved some time by using the blocks in the corners of the door casings instead of mitering the corners and used Base Blocks to but the baseboard against.

 

[rogsmart]

+ 1 on the pin nailer. It'll make your life much easier.

People tend to think of glues as a one size fits all solution for some reason. It shouldn't need saying, but that simply isn't how it works. Glues are designed for different applications and uses. Read your manufacturer's label and they usually have more info online. For interior woodwork yellow carpenter's glue is the way to go and generally less is better than more.

Good luck on your project. A well trimmed out interior will make for a much nicer living space.

 

[robs400]

Wow - I appreciate all the feedback guys!

The glue that I tried is simply labeled super glue. It does not say anything about dampening the surface before pressing together ( I did read that on one of the other bottles tho). This one simply states that the pieces should be dry and that it works on metal, WOOD, etc... I tried the end grain a number of times, and also the face of the boards as well to see if it was an end grain issue. I cant get it to bite on any of it.

I do plan on painting the trim rather than staining it, so caulk will come in to play, however I never thought of it to possibly hold the pieces in place.

I was thinking of possibly trying liquid nails adhesive this evening on a few pieces to see how that worked out.

Id rather not buy a pin nailer, simply because I just purchased the finish nailer, and then a brad nailer the night before last. I luckily found both used on craiglist locally barely used. Unfortunately no local pin nailers at the moment!

A pic for reference of how it looks so far. Any suggestions would be appreciated. This is my Laundry/Test Room. Three windows in here that I am doing first so that my mistakes wont be noticed as much!

 

[buddyboy]

if you don't want to buy a pin nailer you can always put one of the brads in your cordless drill and then 'sharpen' the head of the brad on your grinder or a file.

then use that to pre-drill a hole in the return piece and then, after gluing, hand nail the brad and use a nail set for the last whack.

of course you can skip all the brad grinding and filing if you have the right sized drill bit

good luck

 

[rlitman]

The glue that I tried is simply labeled super glue. . . see if it was an end grain issue.

Super glue IS cyanoacrylate. That will cure instantly with the accelerant. Read my previous post. It is NOT water curing (although water will catalyze the cure) like polyurethane. Wetting the wood will not help the joint.
One problem with CA is that it will soak into the wood VERY quickly. So fast that it will have soaked in before you can bring the two pieces together. This is especially an issue on end grain. Perhaps you needed to apply more. Or let the glue soak in, let it dry, then try again when it won't soak in as fast.
Or, since CA will get sucked into a tight joint, just apply the glue after you've brought the pieces together (if they fit REALLY tightly). Then spray on the accelerant, and it's stuck in seconds.

if you don't want to buy a pin nailer you can always put one of the brads in your cordless drill and then 'sharpen' the head of the brad on your grinder or a file.

then use that to pre-drill a hole in the return piece and then, after gluing, hand nail the brad and use a nail set for the last whack.

of course you can skip all the brad grinding and filing if you have the right sized drill bit

If you're advocating pre-drilling a hole, and then pinning the wood with a brad by hand, ok. But NEVER sharpen a nail to prevent splitting. You blunt the tip of a nail to prevent splitting.

 

[Kevin54]

Super glue IS cyanoacrylate. That will cure instantly with the accelerant. Read my previous post. It is NOT water curing (although water will catalyze the cure) like polyurethane. Wetting the wood will not help the joint.
One problem with CA is that it will soak into the wood VERY quickly. So fast that it will have soaked in before you can bring the two pieces together. This is especially an issue on end grain. Perhaps you needed to apply more. Or let the glue soak in, let it dry, then try again when it won't soak in as fast.
Or, since CA will get sucked into a tight joint, just apply the glue after you've brought the pieces together (if they fit REALLY tightly). Then spray on the accelerant, and it's stuck in seconds.



If you're advocating pre-drilling a hole, and then pinning the wood with a brad by hand, ok. But NEVER sharpen a nail to prevent splitting. You blunt the tip of a nail to prevent splitting.

Ditto on the nail sharpening. A sharp nail at the end of a board will split 90% of the time. Flip the nail over and rap it with the hammer once before driving it and it will go through clean.

For gluing the ends of boards or the sides of boards, I always prefer the Titebond Wood Glue. But if I have to glue a joint where the wood screws together or something like a mortise and tenon, I like Gorilla Glue because it will expand in the joint and keep it tight.

 

[buddyboy]

If you're advocating pre-drilling a hole, and then pinning the wood with a brad by hand, ok. But NEVER sharpen a nail to prevent splitting. You blunt the tip of a nail to prevent splitting.

you're correct, I was talking about using a nail as the 'drill bit' by sharpening the head

 

[mgilde13]

I've always used a finish nailer and never had a piece split on me. Have you checked your air pressure? I'm thinking that it might be set to high.

 

[premierplayer]

Hot glue, you're done. Years back I used wood glue and brads with a pusher. Now days a hot glue gun and I'm done, no splits, no drills, no mess, ready to go on the wall/ceiling now.

 

[kb2tha]

Hot glue, you're done. Years back I used wood glue and brads with a pusher. Now days a hot glue gun and I'm done, no splits, no drills, no mess, ready to go on the wall/ceiling now.

Exactly. I just checked all the responses and was looking for this suggestion. Just make sure you put the glue on the piece already installed instead of the small piece in your hand. You do not want to fumble the small piece with glue on it. This I know.

 

[grumpygator]

+1 on hot glue. Just cut a pile of returns from a short pice and have on hand. hot glue sets fast and sticks great. just wipe off any excess befor it dries.
*******Just Sayihg*********Gator**************

 

[never enuf time]

Cut your returns a hair big, nail the apron in the middle first, glue return to apron, nail end of apron which will put pressure agains return w/o nails. May need to shim behind return or use tape. Also can prebuild on a bench, wait for glue to dry & install.

I use a 23 gauge pinner or collins clamps. If you don't have these you can also "predrill" with a 18 gauge brad gun by removing nails, do a dry run which the driver will make a hole. Then put nails in gun & shoot in hole that you made.

Trim looks great, I love that look.

 

[robs400]

I appreciate all the feedback guys! Lots of good ideas. I had some wood glue already, so I gave that a try last evening with some tape to hold it in place. Going to order a few of those miter clamps tho that a few of you guys have mentioned.

It sounds like some of you guys do quite a bit of trim work. If you have anything creative you could post that would be great! Not sure if I want to use this same exact style for the living/kitchen/dining area (open concept)or try to go with something a little different. - All windows are the same size.

If you take a look at the pic I posted of the crown molding on my header, there is currently no "cap" on it. (That could be the wrong term). Should there be another piece of flat material up top to close that in? I had to put quite a few nails along the bottom piece of crown molding before it felt solid.

Again - thanks everyone.

 

[Kevin54]

I appreciate all the feedback guys! Lots of good ideas. I had some wood glue already, so I gave that a try last evening with some tape to hold it in place. Going to order a few of those miter clamps tho that a few of you guys have mentioned.

It sounds like some of you guys do quite a bit of trim work. If you have anything creative you could post that would be great! Not sure if I want to use this same exact style for the living/kitchen/dining area (open concept)or try to go with something a little different. - All windows are the same size.

If you take a look at the pic I posted of the crown molding on my header, there is currently no "cap" on it. (That could be the wrong term). Should there be another piece of flat material up top to close that in? I had to put quite a few nails along the bottom piece of crown molding before it felt solid.

Again - thanks everyone.

It's kind of hard to make a top for the Crown Moulding without adding some other wood on the wall behind it. But one thing that you want to do which I don't think you did as it doesn't show up in the pic, is to add a piece of Crown on each end that returns to the wall. The same thing for the piece under the stool. They will not be very large pieces, but it gives the trim a finished look. The piece under the stool will be no wider than the moulding that's there now, but it shows that you took a little extra care in finishing the trim off.

 

[signcrafter]

I use these things with wood glue, they work amazing. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...com%2FToolReviews%2Fmiter_clamps.html;350;233.

Also have a 23ga pinner but for really small returns I just glue and clamp.

 

[robs400]

Kevin - Maybe I have used the wrong term, but I started this thread for those very pieces that you noted are missing - HA. I have both the sill, and the crown molding up top cut at 45's and am trying to figure out how to attach those small pieces.

Regarding the cap, there is is wood on the wall behind the crown. It doesnt show in the view of the pic, but the top of the crown is flush with the top of the 1x6 poplar it is nailed into - meaning I did not attach the crown up as high as it could go on the front face of that 1x6, I purposely made it so the top of the crown would be flush with the backing piece of lumber...not sure if that was the right way to do that tho...again this is a learning experience for me.

 

[Camper]

If it were me I would cap it.
Other than than that I like how it looks....wouldn't change a thing.

 

[robs400]

Just an update....I now have 15 windows with jamb extensions and trim....took longer than I thought but am overall happy with how they turned out, and they really transformed the look of the space. I picked up some of those clamps you guys mentioned....they are GREAT...and I def. rec. the pliers for anyone reading this.

I'm kinda hooked on working on the trim now...not sure what I will work on next...Windows are done...but door ways should prob be next before the baseboard. One question for you experts. If I want to put headers on top of the doors as well...should the top elevation match the header above the windows? I ask because the top of my doors are lower than the windows and would require a taller header....not sure how that would look..

 

[Kevin54]

Just an update....I now have 15 windows with jamb extensions and trim....took longer than I thought but am overall happy with how they turned out, and they really transformed the look of the space. I picked up some of those clamps you guys mentioned....they are GREAT...and I def. rec. the pliers for anyone reading this.

I'm kinda hooked on working on the trim now...not sure what I will work on next...Windows are done...but door ways should prob be next before the baseboard. One question for you experts. If I want to put headers on top of the doors as well...should the top elevation match the header above the windows? I ask because the top of my doors are lower than the windows and would require a taller header....not sure how that would look..

I would say "no". Use the same size trim that you used above the windows, but let the doors fall where they may. If there is a drastic difference between the door and window height, the flat piece of wood at the top of the door would be the first thing noticed and I think it would stand out. So I'd use the same height of trim whether the door is lower or not.

And nice job on the windows. Those look very professional looking I wish I would have saw your windows before I changed all the trim in our house. I used the blocks at the bottoms of the doors then the beaded trim, then the blocks with the round circles in them at the top. The flat board and Crown molding looks way better I think.

 

[robs400]

Kevin- Thanks for the compliments. Regarding what you picked for trim in your house, it sounds like what I had previously done on a few doors already in the house.

I went to home depot and saw these trick "kits" that came with the fluted type casing, rosettes for the corners, and plinth blocks on the bottom. I ended up trimming out the 4 doors in the hallway with those kits...both sides...so 8 kits total. When i first moved in the only thing trimmed were the two doors into the house, and they had the same style, so i was just trying to match those. I may end up pulling the trim off the main doors so that it atleast matches the windows since you can see them at the same time. The ones in the hallways I'm not sure of yet...I'd hate to take something apart that I not too long ago put together (without a nail gun!)

This is a pic of the door I was talking about....

 

[Chaz]

I always used wood glue and masking tape. Done thousands of windows this way. I was a trim carpenter. The 3M tape had more stretch than the off brands and always worked better.

 

[robs400]

Does anyone have any creative ideas for door trim? I'm moving onto putting trim up on all the doorways in the house next. For most of them I plan on matching what I did for the window trim. It would be nice to do something a little different for the two entry doors.

I have seen some trim details called keystones, but I'm not sure how I would go about making them, or if it would even flow with the house/trim. Yes...I have scoured houzz.com google already.

 

[Kevin54]

]Does anyone have any creative ideas for door trim? [/B]I'm moving onto putting trim up on all the doorways in the house next. For most of them I plan on matching what I did for the window trim. It would be nice to do something a little different for the two entry doors.

I have seen some trim details called keystones, but I'm not sure how I would go about making them, or if it would even flow with the house/trim. Yes...I have scoured houzz.com google already.

Go to Bing.com and click on the Images, then type in the search box Interior doorway trim I just did it and there is a buttload of ideas.

You could also try www.gardenweb.com and go to the Forums, then Home Forums. You might get some good ideas there. I would Bing it first though.

Oh and BTW....instead of buying a door or window kit from someplace like Lowes or HD for your trim, check with your local lumber company and buy 16' sticks of it. Cheaper than Lowes 8' sticks, or at least our lumber company was.

 

[Kevin54]

robs400..... Is this sort of what you were talking about?

 

[robs400]

Kevin - Thats exactly what I was talking about. I have a 3D model that I started that I will have to try and generate that in to see how it goes with the house. Not sure if I want to keep the fluted trim or not...either way. Thanks for the help. I'll have to check out Bing....I just saw a commercial for it last night.

 

[James E]

Rlitman knows his glues. Most stuff labeled "super glue" is cyanoacrylate, as he says. I have never had much luck using CA on anything porous--especially wood and most especially if one or more of the surfaces is end-grain.

There are CA formulas that are thick but that's more for adhering to vertical surfaces and they're still not good for gap filling. Unless the wood surfaces you're mating are sanded smooth, sealed and mate almost perfectly, CA isn't the right adhesive.

If you're going to use glue, simple wood glue with the piece taped in place should work.

 

[volvo]

...
Kevin54......Everybody loves Crown Molding...Yours is looking good.

 

[Carguy99]

cut the return slightly longer and use the long moulding as a spring clamp. pin it in the middle, leave the ends loose, take the return and little bit of yellow glue and slide it in. then pin the ends of the long piece. easy

 

[shoot summ]

I have done it with regular yellow glue and used painters tape to hold it till the glue dried...

This, done it many, many times, I now have a 23ga pinner but haven't had a chance to use it for this.

 

[Kevin54]

...
Kevin54......Everybody loves Crown Molding...Yours is looking good.

Volvo....That's not mine. That's just a web ******.