Trivia: What is this?

[Old Man Roger]

like i said before, "if one knows how to properly use a file" ... you are dulling and deforming the "teeth" on the file by dragging it backwards across the workpiece.

you made the statement that files are consumables, while this is true to a certain extent, I have files in my tool box that have been in use for well over 20 years and still cut effectively enough that I still use them on a regular basis. I mean, ALL tools can be considered consumables when they aren't used in the proper fashion, i.e.: using a screwdriver as a prybar, using a crescent wrench as a hammer, etc.

The holder the OP original posted is made in such a way that once you put the tang into the hole it also places a downward force on the file with the little "nib" on the end by deflecting the file a bit and there is no need to hold it in place.

A lot of saw blades only cut in one direction too, but you don’t really lift, let’s say a wood hand saw or a hack saw, but the force is much higher as you push. A file works the same way.

The interference fit you describe sounds reasonable. Probably not going to last forever though, especially being made of a relatively soft material.

I want one now..lol

 

[Willie Makeit]

A lot of saw blades only cut in one direction too, but you don’t really lift, let’s say a wood hand saw or a hack saw, but the force is much higher as you push. A file works the same way.

The interference fit you describe sounds reasonable. Probably not going to last forever though, especially being made of a relatively soft material.

I want one now..lol

and saw blades are replaced at a much faster rate because of this too. older power hack saws DID raise on the back stroke and the life of the blade lasted far and away longer than the recirculating-type blades of a band saw that came along to replace them.

 

[neophyte]

like i said before, "if one knows how to properly use a file" ... you are dulling and deforming the "teeth" on the file by dragging it backwards across the workpiece.

you made the statement that files are consumables, while this is true to a certain extent, I have files in my tool box that have been in use for well over 20 years and still cut effectively enough that I still use them on a regular basis. I mean, ALL tools can be considered consumables when they aren't used in the proper fashion, i.e.: using a screwdriver as a prybar, using a crescent wrench as a hammer, etc.

The holder the OP original posted is made in such a way that once you put the tang into the hole it also places a downward force on the file with the little "nib" on the end by deflecting the file a bit and there is no need to hold it in place. The downward force the user exerts to move the file along the workpiece "pushes" the file deeper into the socket under the handle. Really no different than a standard file "handle" is simple held to the file body by nothing more than force-fit & friction.

Fireball Tool tested the file back drag claim.
With both backward and forward the files used removed more material, mainly because the file was cutting on both the backward and forward strokes.
Backward strokes only still removed a lot of material.

 

[Willie Makeit]

Fireball Tool tested the file back drag claim.
With both backward and forward the files used removed more material, mainly because the file was cutting on both the backward and forward strokes.
Backward strokes only still removed a lot of material.

My experience has been different. Use your files however you see fit.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Fireball Tool tested the file back drag claim.
With both backward and forward the files used removed more material, mainly because the file was cutting on both the backward and forward strokes.
Backward strokes only still removed a lot of material.

Well there ya go..lol

 

[PBCampbell]

Dragging a handsaw backwards isn't going to do much dulling due to how soft wood is compared to the steel. Dragging a hacksaw or file backwards in steel will roll the cutting edge forward in short order. The harder the material the quicker this will happen. I'm not going to bother with some youtuber as centuries of trial and error came to the conclusion that "best practice" is to pick the file up and only cut on the forward stroke as designed.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Dragging a handsaw backwards isn't going to do much dulling due to how soft wood is compared to the steel. Dragging a hacksaw or file backwards in steel will roll the cutting edge forward in short order. The harder the material the quicker this will happen. I'm not going to bother with some youtuber as centuries of trial and error came to the conclusion that "best practice" is to pick the file up and only cut on the forward stroke as designed.

You might change your mind if you watched the video.

 

[neophyte]

Dragging a handsaw backwards isn't going to do much dulling due to how soft wood is compared to the steel. Dragging a hacksaw or file backwards in steel will roll the cutting edge forward in short order. The harder the material the quicker this will happen. I'm not going to bother with some youtuber as centuries of trial and error came to the conclusion that "best practice" is to pick the file up and only cut on the forward stroke as designed.

It probably depends on the metal you’re filing.
Mild steel probably won’t do much, even when cold rolled.
Tool steels and carbon steels might.
Some brass and bronze alloys can be hard and kill cutting edges as well.

 

[Willie Makeit]

You might change your mind if you watched the video.

You might not have to purchase as many files if you would use them correctly either. I base my perspective on 20 plus years of direct hands-on experience, not a youtube video of some guy trying to sell me something. I know what the geometry of a file tooth looks like, and back dragging it WILL and DOES dull the file. Does it "cut" in the reverse direction? Sure it does, a file is harder than the workpiece so of course it will remove metal, same way a Skil saw blade will cut when installed to run backwards. That doesn't mean it's not detrimental to the blade.

But, it's your file & your rules. Use them as you see fit.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Well 90% of what I’ve filed over the past 35 years or so has been mild steel, so I guess my experience has been limited. Seriously though, you should check out the video, it’s pretty good even if you fast forward through it some. Not for the sake of changing your mind, but because of the level he took this experiment.

 

[neophyte]

My experience has been different. Use your files however you see fit.

Dragging a handsaw backwards isn't going to do much dulling due to how soft wood is compared to the steel. Dragging a hacksaw or file backwards in steel will roll the cutting edge forward in short order. The harder the material the quicker this will happen. I'm not going to bother with some youtuber as centuries of trial and error came to the conclusion that "best practice" is to pick the file up and only cut on the forward stroke as designed.

You might not have to purchase as many files if you would use them correctly either. I base my perspective on 20 plus years of direct hands-on experience, not a youtube video of some guy trying to sell me something. I know what the geometry of a file tooth looks like, and back dragging it WILL and DOES dull the file. Does it "cut" in the reverse direction? Sure it does, a file is harder than the workpiece so of course it will remove metal, same way a Skil saw blade will cut when installed to run backwards. That doesn't mean it's not detrimental to the blade.

But, it's your file & your rules. Use them as you see fit.

A few things about the Fireball Tool guy’s test.
The steel was 1018 mild hot rolled steel.
He said he was using a Coarse, a Medium, and a Fine file, made by Pferd.
While these files have a “Coarseness rating”, it’s not the numbered rating you get with fine Swiss files.
I’m not sure what the tooth geometry was.
My understanding is that Swiss and German files used different geometries and cuts, and I don’t know whether either of these geometries are the same as the US standard.
The files appeared to be double cut in all coarsenesses, which I believe is standard with Swiss pattern files, and maybe German, but is usually not standard for American pattern files, especially in the finer cut grades, or for finishing work.
I do not know whether the files are sharpened during the manufacturing process, using a technique similar to that which Boggs Tool uses to sharpen worn files.
This used to be standard from some file manufacturers, but I don’t know whether it still is widely done.

 

[AC-WC]

Going back to my early Boy Scout days, I was gonna guess the Left Handed Smoke Shifter the older guys sent us to look for but could never find

Or the aluminum magnet....

 

[Pexto]

Well 90% of what I’ve filed over the past 35 years or so has been mild steel, so I guess my experience has been limited. Seriously though, you should check out the video, it’s pretty good even if you fast forward through it some. Not for the sake of changing your mind, but because of the level he took this experiment.

This isn't then first time this question has come up. And every time it comes up, we're assured that not lifting a file completely off the workpiece will ruin the file in short order. And yet nobody has yet provided empirical evidence that this is true, or a convincing theoretical argument. The Fireball test is by no means perfect, but it does show that if you're filing mild steel, lifting the file on the backstroke doesn't seem to affect file life significantly.

Personally, I just don't worry about it. When you're filing (or sawing), any pressure on the backstroke wastes a bit of energy, because the file (or saw) isn't cutting as efficiently on the backstroke. But I don't worry about lifting the file (or saw) off the work entirely - because that wastes energy too.

 

[Old Man Roger]

This isn't then first time this question has come up. And every time it comes up, we're assured that not lifting a file completely off the workpiece will ruin the file in short order. And yet nobody has yet provided empirical evidence that this is true, or a convincing theoretical argument. The Fireball test is by no means perfect, but it does show that if you're filing mild steel, lifting the file on the backstroke doesn't seem to affect file life significantly.

Personally, I just don't worry about it. When you're filing (or sawing), any pressure on the backstroke wastes a bit of energy, because the file (or saw) isn't cutting as efficiently on the backstroke. But I don't worry about lifting the file (or saw) off the work entirely - because that wastes energy too.

Yup, helps me keep the file where I want it too.