Hello all. I'm at a loss. I've always wanted a shop. I saved and worked at it, and finally built one. 40x60 enclosed 200 ft behind my house. Anyway, I always thought that would be the hard, the expensive part. Well, I'm finding out I was very wrong. The power company sent an engineer out and said he would run off a pole, 200 ft underground to a ground mounted transformer. Then run a leg into the shop, no problem. To do this I have to have another meter set, and the county wont permit 2 on the property. The county wants me to get a bigger service to my house, move my meter on the house to another wall, rewire the panel in the middle of the house, put on a disconnect, then run the 200ft to the shop. I've had 3 companies come out, all say it's crazy, and quote over 10,000. That's just to get power to the building, nothing else. Does this sound normal? I have had the building built for a year now, with no power. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Trouble getting service to the shop
- Thread starter Railman67
- Start date
One guy said he could condense the panel in the house and possibly get 100 amps out there. The power company and another electrician said the voltage drop would be to great running that far. That's why he wanted the ground mount transformer. I work on cars and have mig, tig, plasma etc and would really like a lift also. I was hoping for a 200 amp service before I knew it was this big of an issue.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
Just you working out there? If so, then no matter what you have you'll likely be using only one of the machines at a time and 200A is way overkill. I'd try to calculate what you actually need.
If you are convinced that you need 200A, there's not going to be a cheap way. Every time I see a situation like yours here on GJ, it's expensive. That's just the cost of getting a lot of power over a fairly long distance, and is part of the cost of building a shop like that.
If you are convinced that you need 200A, there's not going to be a cheap way. Every time I see a situation like yours here on GJ, it's expensive. That's just the cost of getting a lot of power over a fairly long distance, and is part of the cost of building a shop like that.
Yeah it's just me. I honestly don't care what size the panel is, as long as things work and don't burn up in my house. There's a wall mounted exhaust fan that pulls 7.5 amps on 220, the lights, and a compressor that will be on most of the time. Would 100 amps be enough to cover that and an arc weld or plasma running? Or would I have to shut something off to fire up the welder?
BillK
Well-known member
Can you apply for a special exemption ?
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
You need to a full list. AC? Compressor size? Heaviest welder, lights, etc.
Also, you'll want to do a load calc on the house to see how much power you can spare from that panel.
Also, you'll want to do a load calc on the house to see how much power you can spare from that panel.
This is what you need. Your service comes into your meter base, and then feeds this panel.using the feed through lugs use that to power your house, and then there is room in this panel to add 100 amp Breaker to feed your barn. 100 amps is more than enough for a good sized hobby shop.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2QjOcgIOZxg6j5DSQQK2uX
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2QjOcgIOZxg6j5DSQQK2uX
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ok so you have a meter pan that feeds an interior main service panel?
Or a meter and disconnect?
Also, you need to list your loads with ratings or models and do a load calc for the shop AND the house. Just saying compressor doesnt tell us anything.
Whats the HP rating on the compressor?
What model welder will you have?
Any heat or air conditioning in the shop?
What loads do you have in the house?
Voltage drop on the load side of a meter is not a concern for a PoCo... the right size wire can overcome the voltage drop over longer distances.
Or a meter and disconnect?
Also, you need to list your loads with ratings or models and do a load calc for the shop AND the house. Just saying compressor doesnt tell us anything.
Whats the HP rating on the compressor?
What model welder will you have?
Any heat or air conditioning in the shop?
What loads do you have in the house?
Voltage drop on the load side of a meter is not a concern for a PoCo... the right size wire can overcome the voltage drop over longer distances.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
You always appeal to the County Board of Commissioners.
Get your "ducks in a row", especially if you have any documents from the PoCo.
Get your "ducks in a row", especially if you have any documents from the PoCo.
Fasthotrod
Well-known member
Another option would be to replace the existing meter base with a meter/main panel that has feed through lugs. Perhaps one like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ground-Main-Breaker-CSED-RC816F200C/100178340
If your POCO is willing to upgrade your service to 200A, then this type of meter/main panel will allow you to take the 200A service into the new panel, then you can use breakers and/or the feed through lugs to feed your house and shop.
Your house panel would need to be changed from a main panel to a sub-panel, which means that you'll need to separate the neutrals and grounds. (Probably means that you'll remove a bonding screw on the isolated neutral in the panel, and install a separate ground bar in the panel.) You'll need to replace the conductors between the meter and house panel, because you likely have three conductors and you'll now need four. (Two phases, a neutral, and a ground.)
The shop would also need to be a sub-panel, so you'd be running four conductor wire from the meter/main panel to your shop. You could use direct burial four conductor aluminum, or drop PVC conduit into the trench from the meter/main to the shop and run the wire in there. As Wylie said, the correct size conductors will overcome the voltage drop.
What size is the service to your house? Got any pictures of your place so we can see what you're working with here?
Mark
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ground-Main-Breaker-CSED-RC816F200C/100178340
If your POCO is willing to upgrade your service to 200A, then this type of meter/main panel will allow you to take the 200A service into the new panel, then you can use breakers and/or the feed through lugs to feed your house and shop.
Your house panel would need to be changed from a main panel to a sub-panel, which means that you'll need to separate the neutrals and grounds. (Probably means that you'll remove a bonding screw on the isolated neutral in the panel, and install a separate ground bar in the panel.) You'll need to replace the conductors between the meter and house panel, because you likely have three conductors and you'll now need four. (Two phases, a neutral, and a ground.)
The shop would also need to be a sub-panel, so you'd be running four conductor wire from the meter/main panel to your shop. You could use direct burial four conductor aluminum, or drop PVC conduit into the trench from the meter/main to the shop and run the wire in there. As Wylie said, the correct size conductors will overcome the voltage drop.
What size is the service to your house? Got any pictures of your place so we can see what you're working with here?
Mark
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Replacing the service entrance wire going to the main service panel inside the house might prove to be very difficult. Also the GEC from the electrodes and any water pipe bonds would need to be moved as well to the new meter main combo or main service panel on the outside.
The current main service panel may be obsolete and removing the bonding might be difficult. Also, parts might not be available to isolate the neutral bus from the enclosure.
These things alone can be a major can of worms.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I have the same size shop as you. 100 amps is totally possible, it's all about wire gauge (voltage drop). How many feet between the house and the shop?
IMHO, you do not need 200 amps at that shop. I do similar work and run 4 tons of HVAC, a fridge, and a hot tub - it all works on 90A.
The process for me of bringing power to my property was similar to what they want you to do - I got quotes of $8000 just to setup the main mains from the transformer. The POCO charged me about $1200 for the transformer install alone. Pretty nuts.
Two questions:
1) Is a permit required to add an additional branch to your home? If not, why even screw around with county approval?
2) Is the county "requiring" new service or indicating that it's a best practice - it's different?
Around here, adding a 2nd meter triggers an automatic additional "connection fee" of $30/mo - so that was a factor.
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If you've got older, transformer, machines replacing them with inverter units might be cheaper than a larger service.
Really need this info to make any meaningful suggestions. Pics of meter and existing panel(s) would be best. Ideally with covers removed on the panel(s) if the OP is comfortable with removing them.
DC73
Well-known member
Is it possible to pick a convenient location for the new meter so that it could serve both the house and the shop? For example, you could install a 340 amp meter base that has two sets of load lugs. Run wire from one set of lugs to the new shop and from the other set of lugs to the house.
DC
Thanks for all of the replies. I have a 200 amp service to my house right now. As far as loads in the shop, a 220 exhaust fan, 5hp compressor, (12) 4 bulb t5ho fixtures, (4) 2 bulb t5ho fixtures, radio, and refrigerator are what will be running the majority of the time. As far as welders, I have a 250 ac/dc idlearc, 140 amp mig, 60 amp tig, and 200 amp tig. I will only use one at a time usually.
If I can get all this done off of 100 amps, that'd be great. The county doesn't care how I get it or how much power I get, they just refuse to permit another meter base.
If I can get all this done off of 100 amps, that'd be great. The county doesn't care how I get it or how much power I get, they just refuse to permit another meter base.
It's just a meter on the house, no disconnect. The county's suggestion was to do as said above. Upgrade the service to a 340, put in a disconnect, and run a leg to the shop. The issue w it is the service and disconnect will have to be moved to another side of the house. If they were put in the existing location, the meter and disconnect will be directly under the bedroom windows. Also to upgrade the panel inside the house they would need to remove 3 walks of sheetrock.
You're situation sounds very similar to mine. I do not need a permit to run another leg from the house out, I just have to have a disconnect.
Thanks for all of the replies. I have a 200 amp service to my house right now. As far as loads in the shop, a 220 exhaust fan, 5hp compressor, (12) 4 bulb t5ho fixtures, (4) 2 bulb t5ho fixtures, radio, and refrigerator are what will be running the majority of the time. As far as welders, I have a 250 ac/dc idlearc, 140 amp mig, 60 amp tig, and 200 amp tig. I will only use one at a time usually.
If I can get all this done off of 100 amps, that'd be great. The county doesn't care how I get it or how much power I get, they just refuse to permit another meter base.
If I can get all this done off of 100 amps, that'd be great. The county doesn't care how I get it or how much power I get, they just refuse to permit another meter base.
Most 200A panels will let you subfeed 100-125A. I would consider that enough for your shop. In the event they won't let you have that much due to the overall demand calc - say you have to settle for 60/70A - the cable and panel in the shop can still be bigger for 'future growth'. (Like shortly after the ink dries on your passed inspection report
)Figure out the actual line currents on your machines. That will help you complete the picture. Your Electrician will want those numbers too if he needs to do a demand calc.
For a while I hummed and hawed at the initial cost for a dedicated 100A service to the shop. I gave up on the idea when I found out it would cost me more in billing too. At zero power use, there's still a basic connection fee. And since I can't claim a 2nd legal dwelling unit on the property, the 2nd meter is automatically commercial rate. So much for that idea.
ard
Well-known member
Wait. The "county" wont allow a second meter????
Not the poco? So you are saying 'power company is OK with a second meter, the county wont allow'?
What county?
Not the poco? So you are saying 'power company is OK with a second meter, the county wont allow'?
What county?
100 goes a long ways.
I was just in a commercial shop the other day. 100 amp 3 phase service. They have a 10 hp air compressor, electric power washer (5hp), a couple of electric over hydraulic tire machines (2hp and 5hp), 2 or 3 lifts, close to 10kw of electric heat in the office and waiting area, 4 gas pumps and the shop and office lighting. Plus all the miscellaneous, computers, a fridge, ext. Usually 2-3 guys working in the shop. They have never tripped the main.
I was just in a commercial shop the other day. 100 amp 3 phase service. They have a 10 hp air compressor, electric power washer (5hp), a couple of electric over hydraulic tire machines (2hp and 5hp), 2 or 3 lifts, close to 10kw of electric heat in the office and waiting area, 4 gas pumps and the shop and office lighting. Plus all the miscellaneous, computers, a fridge, ext. Usually 2-3 guys working in the shop. They have never tripped the main.
Bigbandguy
Well-known member
Sounds like standard MHF to subpanel in shop setup .. two ground rods and he is done. Rent a ditch witch for the run and tell the electrician to get off the dime and hook it up. That will be plenty of power for what you will be doing. There are at least 20 threads on this with the same outcome and you have waited a year for nada!
The local EMC engineer said he could do it all quick and cheap, but not without a permit. The county dictates the permits. They override the emc here in this specific county in middle Georgia (the inspector actually laughed and said," if you were in any other county or a city limit within this county this would be approved without issue, but I'm not going to do it anymore here.") Anyway, the consensus here seems to be 100 will be enough. That's the info I needed and exactly what I will peruse. Thank you all.
ard
Well-known member
OP
If they actually said this, that is unbelievable. It isn't true.
So if they said this, EVERYTHING else they told you is suspec. County rules, etc etc
They know you are clueless and figure they can rob you.
Ignore the people here saying b'buy this or that'... They can't know yet
Pay attention to those asking questions and needing more info.
Might be worth calling your county supervisor to check this prohibition on an additional service isn't some **** the smartass inspector made up. Even if it is legit the inspectors boss needs to know that an attitude adjustment is required.
75gmck25
Well-known member
A very common solution on GJ is to run 2-2-2-4 AL MHF off your existing 200 amp panel, using a 90 amp or smaller breaker to feed a shop sub-panel. You might have a some amperage loss due to distance, but it sounds like your shop would very seldom draw anywhere near that 90 amp maximum. Its not the optimum for your needs, but still a relatively inexpensive alternative compared to the quotes you are getting.
Bruce
Bruce
dcg9381
Well-known member
My advice was the same as Bruce's - 90A is fine for my shop and it sounds like I've got more "non-tool" load. Biggest breaker that could likely go in is 125A.
It's hard for one person to use more than 90A - I haven't read (on this forum) about anyone popping a 90A on a single person shop.
It's hard for one person to use more than 90A - I haven't read (on this forum) about anyone popping a 90A on a single person shop.
OccupantRJ
Well-known member
I run my shhop on 60 amps at the moment with a 5 hp compressor, welder, ac, etc.
Can you sub divide the property to circumvent the meter situation? List the shop as a separate address.
Can you sub divide the property to circumvent the meter situation? List the shop as a separate address.
You'd likely have to go 70-80A on a 200' run of #2AL due to the overall voltage drop. #1/0 on a 100A is more realistic. Don't know how NEC does it, but CEC you can't have more that 5% drop total from the service attachment to point of use.
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html
Agreed. Nothing in my shop popped on a 40A subfeed. Working on 90A eventually... have it stepped up to a 60A feeder at the moment.
Subdividing?
That's usually a much bigger can of worms and cost than a 2nd meter.wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
You'd likely have to go 70-80A on a 200' run of #2AL due to the overall voltage drop. #1/0 on a 100A is more realistic. Don't know how NEC does it, but CEC you can't have more that 5% drop total from the service attachment to point of use.
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html
Agreed. Nothing in my shop popped on a 40A subfeed. Working on 90A eventually... have it stepped up to a 60A feeder at the moment.
Subdividing?
The NEC does NOT enforce voltage drop maximums.
SGKent
Banned
what is the zoning on the property? It may be some weird AG or residential zoning where they don't want something commercial mixed in - they may be afraid that it will turn into a mixed use property with a small industrial business on it. Keeping it on one meter may be a way to keep it residential or AG like a farmhouse and shop. If so I'd wonder if they would buy it if the POCO agreed to keep both meters on the same bill. Also many jurisdictions in the USA are being pushed to go to time of day pricing to force people to use less electricity and therefore create less CO2 because of the mania over global warming. In the areas where time of day pricing kicks in, industrial use is billed at a lower rate than residential. Maybe the county is trying to enforce that.
All that said, we live in California and this kind of stuff goes on all the time. I personally never get used to it but some do, or they stick cotton in their ears and refuse to believe the new laws until it hits them in the a_s.
All that said, we live in California and this kind of stuff goes on all the time. I personally never get used to it but some do, or they stick cotton in their ears and refuse to believe the new laws until it hits them in the a_s.
Wow. That doesn't seem wise. The 5hp compressor and the bigger welders will pull hard when they start. A larger feeder will definitely help.
EDIT: Commentary on re-zoning... there's infinite reasons why not. Lot size restrictions. Density targets. Community sewer and water systems maxed out. Restrictions on septic and wells. 'Riparian areas', etc. I live in a region will 'all' the rules. Its amazing I even got a shop built.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Voltage drop is a design issue not a safety issue.
If it was a problem, the NEC would be enforcing it.
If it was a problem, the NEC would be enforcing it.
Who ensures a good design? Then why does this post point out the distance 'limit' of #12 wire for 15A and 20A circuits?
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8086498&postcount=5
ard
Well-known member
Then why does this post point out the distance 'limit' of #12 wire for 15A and 20A circuits?
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8086498&postcount=5
I assumed a design limit if a 3% voltage drop.
And yeah, I've run #12 over 59 feet on 20 amp circuits before..... :roll eyes:
Pretty easy to do in a ranch style home with basement and four car garage witha shop ..........up down and around really adds up......59’ is not all that far. That 59’ is not adhered to around these parts.
My basement is 72’ corner to corner. My wood working shop is on the opposite side of the electrical service.
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Exactly.
So the 200' per the OP's shop....
#2AL @ 90amps = 3.7% voltage drop
#1/0 @ 90a = 2.32%
#1/0 @ 100a = 2.58%
#2/0 @ 90a = 1.84%
#2/0 @ 100a = 2.05%
Thats only 1 of the 3 pieces. Add the drop at the house panel, and the drop in the shop's branch circuits. CEC allows 3% voltage drop for the branch circuit or feeder; and 5% max start to finish. Ship's standards (Canadian or International) are slightly more generous at 6-7% total depending on the type of load.
I'm sure the NEC has one of those generic clauses about good design and workmanship, no?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Then why does this post point out the distance 'limit' of #12 wire for 15A and 20A circuits?
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8086498&postcount=5
Architect or engineer.
I was just doing work on a new dentist office last month and on the electrical prints the calculated voltage drop was listed and the required size of conductor to limit voltage drop to 3% for the feeder.
Can you name a safety issue caused by voltage drop?
Damaged equipment and wiring from heat generated by drawing inrush currents for longer than they're designed for. Causes voltage sag on the affected system for other equipment; potential for nuisance tripping and damage. The inverse time-delay action of circuit breakers can expose equipment to moderate overcurrents until the thermal action kicks in. Problems are compounded if the loads are cycling i.e. frequent on/off.
Voltage drop is a safety concern in other jurisdictions. I easily found 3 regulatory documents that set a limit. Engineers often supercede Code requirements anyway. Many smaller jobs do not involve an architect or engineer. Is 3% simply a rough rule-of-thumb for the USA?