Troubleshooting cat5e cable for my POE camera

[rdoty]

very rare to have a camera with a gigabit nic.... in fact ive never seen one even on a quad lense cam.

True. It is amazing how little bandwidth video requires with modern codecs. I (vaguely) remember the days of uncompressed video streams - now there was a bandwidth hog!

there actually is a difference because each pair has a different rate of twist per inch. this is to suppress noise and emi

We're getting down into the weeds here - anyone who isn't a geek feel free to ignore! I'm familiar with UTP and differential signaling technologies. I'm amazed at how much EMI resistance a simple twist can provide! My understanding is that TIA 568A and 568B are electrically identical, including UTP shielding characteristics - that the difference is between what color pairs connect to the pins on the outside of the plug. That from a wiring standpoint it is essentially the same as looking at the top of the plug vs. the bottom of the plug. Did I get this wrong?

 

[cgrutt]

True. It is amazing how little bandwidth video requires with modern codecs. I (vaguely) remember the days of uncompressed video streams - now there was a bandwidth hog!

We're getting down into the weeds here - anyone who isn't a geek feel free to ignore! I'm familiar with UTP and differential signaling technologies. I'm amazed at how much EMI resistance a simple twist can provide! My understanding is that TIA 568A and 568B are electrically identical, including UTP shielding characteristics - that the difference is between what color pairs connect to the pins on the outside of the plug. That from a wiring standpoint it is essentially the same as looking at the top of the plug vs. the bottom of the plug. Did I get this wrong?

I thought (probably incorrectly) that the different twist rates on the pairs was to prevent "cross-talk" inductive interference between different pairs within bundle independent of what wiring "type" / standard was actually used. Also my understanding is Type A is generally required under government (federal?) contracts but Type B is widely preferred and used within industry. Its interesting that the different twist rates may actually make Type A electrically different than Type B (at least from an interference standpoint) I had never considered that.

 

[Bad Habit]

T568B was based on old AT&T wiring scheme for their digital PBX phones. Those used Pairs 2 & 3 which were pins 1&2 (pair 2) and pins 3&6 (pair 3). These are the original data pairs (for 10Base-T and AT&T digital phones). Pair 1 stays on the center pins 4&5 so they can be used for POTS as a 4/6 wire RJ11 can plug into the RJ45 outlet. This was the start of LattisNet which evolved into what we now know as ethernet wiring

IBM of course begrudgingly accepted that data wiring was going the UTP route but of course could not use their arch rivals wiring scheme. Their big plan was for everyone to use Token Ring, but the cable and connectors, were horrible and it was next to impossible to actually support any large number of devices. Everybody had to maintain some sort of proprietary system so they could keep all the duckets flowing in. Their data used Pairs 1 & 2 and in many cases tried to stay with RJ11 jacks/plugs. They figured out if they just swapped the Pair 2 & 3 pin outs on an RJ45 from the T568B scheme, and created the T568A scheme. They did a better job lobbying the Feds ($$$) and got it standardized as the scheme to use.

Many of the other systems used basically RS232 which was easy to adapt to telephone style wiring so the T568A worked well because you could stay with 4 wire RJ11s.

Where this only really mattered was if the equipment room used punch blocks (110 for AT&T, 66 Blocks for IBM/Rolm, and of course everyone's favorite BIX block for Northern Telecom). You had to know what pairs to cross connect. Now everything uses patch panels, as long as both ends are the same (A or B), it all works. The wires don't care what color they are, just that they are paired correctly and in the right places.

 

[kbuhagiar]

That would not affect the cable in any way. that is impossible....

I'm not talking about the wire - duh - I mean perhaps the camera recieved an update and now, for some reason, it sees errors where there weren't any before. Years ago where I used to work we had a printer at the workstation end of a Cat3 cable run. One of our over-enthusiastic newbie employees applied a firmware upgrade to the printer and it would never work on that Cat3 run again. We moved it over the the newer Cat5 run in the supply room and it worked. Just sayin.

quite a few possibilities

rodents

nic in cable in underground conduit, water gets in, ground freezes, ice expands and ruins cable

LIKE I SAID, unless there was recent activity (storm damage, digging, rodents, etc)

 

[Wrench97]

I found a water logged/shorted pair once with a ohm meter by testing each wire to another with both ends disconnected I found resistance of 2k on one pair, Ol on the rest

 

[Codyboy]

All good info on this issue.
Here is what I found...

Type A wiring has a miswire on (1-2 (wht/grn, grn)) and (7-8(wht/brn,brn))
I swapped over to type B wiring and it did change. Now a miswire on (3-6(wht/grn,grn)) and (7-8 (wht/brn,brn)). So it is following and appears that the brown pair and the green pairs are bad.

I tested continuity again on each pair and all have continuity and right at 12 ohms on each pair.
I also tested for shorts on all combinations and found none. with a completely open end there was no continuity between any wires.

I pulled the camera down and found the female connector with one pin corroded in two and another in very poor shape.
I cut the connector off and replaced it with a keystone jack. The colors they use on the camera wire are not the same at all. I had to cut open the connector and trace out the pin locations. I got it wired up and connected it to a known good port on the DVR with a short patch cable. Nothing, although the LED flood did come on just no camera action.

So what else to do? Well I tore the camera apart and inspected it. Found nothing that stood out on the circuit board and no burnt wires , nothing. It looked brand new inside.

With two bad pairs the cable may still power and send data on the good pair (blue and orange). I may try a cheaper camera to see if it will work but I'll have to figure out which pairs and pins that particular camera uses.

As far as pulling a new cable it's not happening in that conduit with a coax(unused) and a 12-2 w grnd in there. It is tight with two 90 sweeps. And even if I could pull out the old cat5 and replaced it with underground rated wire it would be too fat.

 

[mm08822]

As far as pulling a new cable it's not happening in that conduit with a coax(unused) and a 12-2 w grnd in there. It is tight with two 90 sweeps. And even if I could pull out the old cat5 and replaced it with underground rated wire it would be too fat.

NM-B, I assume. Another reason there is no room/difficult to re-pull. Change them to 3 thhn/thwn conductors at the same time.

What is the load on the 12-2?

 

[cgrutt]

Camera issue aside you have to determine if cable works or not. Assuming cable is bad and you're not willing or able to replace it you have a few options. Rewire using only the remaining "good" pairs (which may be short lived if it works) or find another alternative at least two have been mentioned IIRC. You can also replace with wireless camera or install a bridge.

 

[Codyboy]

NM-B, I assume. Another reason there is no room/difficult to re-pull. Change them to 3 thhn/thwn conductors at the same time.

What is the load on the 12-2?

Yeah I pulled romex down there.
Not much load on it, just the control for the gate which is basically just to charge the battery and sometimes Christmas lights on the gate and fence.

 

[theoldwizard1]

But before I replaced them , I twisted each pair together on one end and tested for continuity. Each pair has continuity and does not have any opens or shorts from one pair to the other pairs.

Continuity is a very poor way of testing Ethernet cable.

 

[dave*99]

Can you dig up the tight 90s, cut them off and and pull all that wire out? You are wasting your time trying to resurrect that cat5. The "good" pairs are probably near death too. As for the NM-B..... you know that's wrong. And the coax is unused. THWN and some properly rated cat5 or cat6 and a spare will fit much better.

 

[dcg9381]

What is the coax used for? Could it be eliminated? Lot's of places have little to no coax with most stuff on ethernet or WiFi.

Thanks.. I missed that. Opens up another option. Use the coax for ethernet. It's fast enough for a camera.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks.. I missed that. Opens up another option. Use the coax for ethernet. It's fast enough for a camera.

Those are not for coax. Those are 2-wire phone wire to ethernet adapters

EDIT: I missed that those have an adapter to go from 2 wire to coax connector....

 

[kj_mustang]

Never assume anything is good. I had a brand new cat 5 keystone jack that was manufactured wrong and tested crossed wires every time even though I verified and repunched it a couple times. Replaced it and all was good.

 

[Codyboy]

Can you dig up the tight 90s, cut them off and and pull all that wire out? You are wasting your time trying to resurrect that cat5. The "good" pairs are probably near death too. As for the NM-B..... you know that's wrong. And the coax is unused. THWN and some properly rated cat5 or cat6 and a spare will fit much better.

I could dig up one of the 90s, the other is under the slab where it comes up in the wall on an interior closet.

 

[dave*99]

I could dig up one of the 90s, the other is under the slab where it comes up in the wall on an interior closet.

Can you get to the point where the conduit leaves slab coverage? Could be a spot to dig and access the conduit if the cable won’t come out.

 

[Codyboy]

Can you get to the point where the conduit leaves slab coverage? Could be a spot to dig and access the conduit if the cable won’t come out.

Possible yes. I know where it comes out from under the slab. I could cut it there but would be a lot of digging to get enough flex in the conduit to get it apart and back together. probably at least 8 to 10 ft , idk.
I guess I could just cut out a 2 or 3 ft section , and when going back with it I could install a small pull box in the flowerbed.

Still a lot of digging and I did plenty of that at work.

 

[dcg9381]

Those are not for coax. Those are 2-wire phone wire to ethernet adapters

That's what I thought too when I first looked at it. But I believe this device will do it either way.





The Axis device you listed is $300-$500. Ubiquiti is $99. I haven't used either, but have had really good luck with Ubiquiti's stuff.

The length may be a problem if the OP is at 250'... I didn't look at that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah I pulled romex down there.
Not much load on it, just the control for the gate which is basically just to charge the battery and sometimes Christmas lights on the gate and fence.

Wow thats all wrong

Pull out the NM-B, coax and ethernet, pull in THWN and properly rated CAT6 (underground 300v rated). With the coax and NM-b removed there should be enough room for THWN and CAT6 DB rated cable

I recommend Shireen DC-2030. It has a dry gel tape for moisture rejection. the dry tape is so much easier to work with than the wet gel

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shireeninc.com

That's what I thought too when I first looked at it. But I believe this device will do it either way.





The Axis device you listed is $300-$500. Ubiquiti is $99. I haven't used either, but have had really good luck with Ubiquiti's stuff.

The length may be a problem if the OP is at 250'... I didn't look at that.

I stand corrected. I missed that those have an adapter to go from 2 wire to BNC coax connector....

Distance could be an issue though, especially if the cam has IRs and/or needs POE+. max distance for 13w over coax is 150, (492'). I wouldnt run it longer than that as there wont be much power for any camera.

If the cam needs 25w then max distance is 50m (164'). beyond 25w, these wont work

Thats where the more expensive Axis version comes in as it can deliver higher power over longer distances....

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

Either utilize the coax that is already there or rip the old cat5 and coax out and run a new cat5e or shielded... Still not the solution with that 120v line in there with it. It's not what you want to hear, but everyone would agree doing it right towels best results.

I think you've got the idea about digging it up and putting in a pull box between the 90's...

Or get some direct burial cat6a-cmx and call it a day until it gets cut

 

[Wrench97]

You also could run a 9v battery across one pair at a time and check the other end with a automotive test light, a corroded pair won't light the test light.

 

[Codyboy]

You also could run a 9v battery across one pair at a time and check the other end with a automotive test light, a corroded pair won't light the test light.

Wouldn't ohming out the pairs be the same? They all ohmed out at 12ohms.

I have no idea about low voltage stuff as I worked as a distribution lineman for 37 years. 120v to 35k v.
True a corroded "connection" might not carry current but just corrosion on the wire? IDK.
A lot of our old copper primary and secondary wire was green and corroded and it still worked just fine.

 

[Wrench97]

Wouldn't ohming out the pairs be the same? They all ohmed out at 12ohms.

I have no idea about low voltage stuff as I worked as a distribution lineman for 37 years. 120v to 35k v.
True a corroded "connection" might not carry current but just corrosion on the wire? IDK.
A lot of our old copper primary and secondary wire was green and corroded and it still worked just fine.

From automotive experience no I've seen corroded wires ohm out ok and not be able to carry a load.
The millivolts from the ohm meter will read through the green crusty corrosion but it will not push any amp load.

 

[cgrutt]

Do any of the pairs show continuity when left open at other side? Rule out shorted pair somewhere before end of line? Terminate with RJ45s (instead of keystones) and see if you still show error.

 

[JohnX14]

A lot of good advice here. I'd go with a handhole in the bed, cut out a few feet of conduit, and replace everything. I can't believe you were able to ever pull 250' of 12/2 nm, coax, and cat 5 through that length with (2) 90's whenever you did it. I wouldn't even try pulling the 12/2 alone, even if it were the proper UF cable through 250' with 2 '90's. Smallest UG pvc I'll use is 1", and at that it's for postlights or a well, and not at that length.

 

[dave*99]

A lot of good advice here. I'd go with a handhole in the bed, cut out a few feet of conduit, and replace everything. I can't believe you were able to ever pull 250' of 12/2 nm, coax, and cat 5 through that length with (2) 90's whenever you did it. I wouldn't even try pulling the 12/2 alone, even if it were the proper UF cable through 250' with 2 '90's. Smallest UG pvc I'll use is 1", and at that it's for postlights or a well, and not at that length.

I’m surprised the cat5 survived the friction of the initial pull. Feel the burn in the 90s

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A lot of good advice here. I'd go with a handhole in the bed, cut out a few feet of conduit, and replace everything. I can't believe you were able to ever pull 250' of 12/2 nm, coax, and cat 5 through that length with (2) 90's whenever you did it. I wouldn't even try pulling the 12/2 alone, even if it were the proper UF cable through 250' with 2 '90's. Smallest UG pvc I'll use is 1", and at that it's for postlights or a well, and not at that length.

mustve been cussing the entire time...

 

[Codyboy]

Do any of the pairs show continuity when left open at other side? Rule out shorted pair somewhere before end of line? Terminate with RJ45s (instead of keystones) and see if you still show error.

I thought I thoroughly went through that a couple of times.

With a completely open end I tested all combinations 1 to 2345678, 2 to 345678, 3 to 45678, 4 to 5678, 5 to 678, 6 to 78, 7 to 8

no shorts.
I could terminate with rj45's but then Id still have to place a double ended jack to put the two rj45's together.

My eyes aint as good as they were a few years ago when I ran all the cables and terminated all 24 ends with rj45's. I think I only had to redo a couple of them where I had crossed something up.
Punching down a jack is a lot easier.

 

[Codyboy]

A lot of good advice here. I'd go with a handhole in the bed, cut out a few feet of conduit, and replace everything. I can't believe you were able to ever pull 250' of 12/2 nm, coax, and cat 5 through that length with (2) 90's whenever you did it. I wouldn't even try pulling the 12/2 alone, even if it were the proper UF cable through 250' with 2 '90's. Smallest UG pvc I'll use is 1", and at that it's for postlights or a well, and not at that length.

I didn't pull it through. The only part I did that was from the flower bed up into the panel and that was through just that one 90 and about a 15ft pull.
The rest I laid out the wire and slid the conduit on the bundle.

mustve been cussing the entire time...

There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

ETA .
Yeah when I installed the stubout before concrete was poured (2006) I never intended for it to have cat5 and coax in it.
It was just a way to get a single circuit out of the house panel to the front yard if ever needed.
So I just used 3/4. I have a stub that runs to the backyard also and I've never used it.

 

[dave*99]

didn't pull it through. The only part I did that was from the flower bed up into the panel and that was through just that one 90 and about a 15ft pull.
The rest I laid out the wire and slid the conduit on the bundle.

This is where the wire often gets glued to the inside of the conduit.......

 

[mm08822]

I was going to say OP probably built up the conduit run as pulling in cables so the 90s were a non-issue then.

I refrained from stating this guess. Now I ask myself why.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I didn't pull it through. The only part I did that was from the flower bed up into the panel and that was through just that one 90 and about a 15ft pull.
The rest I laid out the wire and slid the conduit on the bundle.

There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Too late now but the code prohibits installing conduit around "laid out" wire.

 

[mm08822]

Too late now but the code prohibits installing conduit around "laid out" wire.

So................Call the NEC policia ................and then prove it.

(How dare you use logic, rules, best practices to tell someone how it is best (or at least better) done. Don't you attend book burning parties??)

 

[dcg9381]

Too late now but the code prohibits installing conduit around "laid out" wire.

Wow.. That's a little over the top. I get "why", but it's highly impractical.

 

[mm08822]

Wow.. That's a little over the top. I get "why", but it's highly impractical.

Not really, been that way for decades. This is why fill limitations and 360 degrees between outlet points are required. Even cable/conductors have tensile strength pull limitations on them. Also why pulling lube exists.

Can only put so many rules/best practices in place to dumb down the dummies.

 

[PCustoms]

It also prohibits NM-B underground, but whose keeping track?

 

[dcg9381]

Not really, been that way for decades.

I often learn new ways that I'm doing it wrong on GJ..

It also prohibits NM-B underground, but whose keeping track?

That could be spotted. How wire was installed, not so much.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

So................Call the NEC policia ................and then prove it.

(How dare you use logic, rules, best practices to tell someone how it is best (or at least better) done. Don't you attend book burning parties??)

"IF" a job doesn’t have my name on it I really don’t give a "Flyin F" what anyone does.
Basically it’s "Your House and Your rules"……….. Just don't get me involved.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

It also prohibits NM-B underground, but who’s keeping track?

I saw that and wanted to wait to see how long it would take someone to notice that…….. You my friend are now a winner for the "Spot the Code Violation of Week" award!

 

[mm08822]

"IF" a job doesn’t have my name on it I really don’t give a "Flyin F" what anyone does.
Basically it’s "Your House and Your rules"……….. Just don't get me involved.

Likewise, I'm long past caring more about someone's situation than they do.

(On this forum however, I hate to see BS/dumb stuff/bad info propagated.)