I can't imagine who on here would be bored by tool espionage in Germany! Certainly not me.
TTC: Allen Hex Key Shootout
- Thread starter glenng
- Start date
I can 100% guarantee that if I was using those Eklinds by hand, they would not come out. The problem with the machine is that is only applies force at a single plane. As an exaggerated comparison for demonstration, put a 12” extension on your socket and ratchet. Notice how it becomes difficult to apply the torque on the fastener centerline unless you brace the head end of the ratchet. Same thing. So yes, the problem was specific to the Eklinds, but as I said, because the testing equipment is exaggerating an issue that wouldn’t really be so apparent in the real world. There is no doubt that the eklind would have achieved higher torque results if the tool was kept in the fastener like it would be when used in the real world.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
Every machine shop I have worked at has had some crazy corporate espionage story. The shop I’m at now has had like three in the last five years. Some are so bonkers that it’s hard to believe.
I'm not sure pointing out that while you dont necessarily have to with these other brands to do well, THESE if you push them down into the bolt head while turning will do better, and otherwise not do well, is the highest praise for any tool.
You wouldn’t have to press down if the torque was applied concentrically. It’s not about creating artificial praise, it’s about not creating artificially unrealistic results. The test scenario itself isn’t quite real world so small issues can easily knock a tool out of testing when in real life they work fine.
So the Eklinds take more concentration and effort?
Ive never been a fan of Eklinds, they always seemed like the shiiter USA brand of hex. They were better then most the no name import **** that was popular pre 2000's. But those days are over. They do hit a price point and COO, but they arent great.
Ive never been a fan of Eklinds, they always seemed like the shiiter USA brand of hex. They were better then most the no name import **** that was popular pre 2000's. But those days are over. They do hit a price point and COO, but they arent great.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
No Unbrako?
Fail.
Fail.
I have honestly never seen an Unbrako set of hex keys- and I have two sets by Allen, so I'm not young. I do have an old Unbrako engineering catalog that shows one L-key twisted up and not breaking. I just googled and I didn't find any new sets, so if they're not readily found online, they're not exactly trying to sell them if they still exist new.
You’re proving my point for me. The test method exacerbates the problem so much so that you’re convinced you would have to concentrate to use a hex key. On the other hand, I believe in you.
I’m not praising them or encouraging anyone to go buy them. Just pointing out that I am 100% confident I can use those hex keys with superior competency than their test rig could.. and it’s not going to be difficult to concentrate and it’s not going to blow my hand off and shoot through the back of the shop wall.
9 times out of 10, when I use a hex key, I’m bracing the elbow of the key either with my free hand or my thumb.
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Cruzan80
Well-known member
I have realized I can search both by term and by member at the same time, vastly limiting results. So if you search "Hex" espionage" and member "RoninB4" (or any other specifics you remember), it can narrow down immensely.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-I did the same thing yesterday.
That is true, but I've only really had to do that with bad quality wrenches.
neophyte
Well-known member
It should probably be mentioned that Bondhus keys tend to have slightly different fits depending on the surface finish used.
My guess is that Bondhus simply makes the keys, or at least key stock, and then uses whatever finish is specified, using the same keystock no matter the finish, despite the finishes having different thickness tolerances.
The black “Proguard” finish seems to be better if a slightly looser fit is necessary, where the plated finishes seem to be a touch thicker, and may provide a tighter fit.
All the keys work well, there just might be slight differences.
The black Proguard finish also seems to be highly resistant to corrosion.
The only Bondhus keys I have broken were older ball end screwdriver types, were I broke the ball off, and those had translucent acetate handles, and a browned “rust” finish, so they must have predated the Proguard finish and maybe the current steel alloy or hardening process.
My guess is that Bondhus simply makes the keys, or at least key stock, and then uses whatever finish is specified, using the same keystock no matter the finish, despite the finishes having different thickness tolerances.
The black “Proguard” finish seems to be better if a slightly looser fit is necessary, where the plated finishes seem to be a touch thicker, and may provide a tighter fit.
All the keys work well, there just might be slight differences.
The black Proguard finish also seems to be highly resistant to corrosion.
The only Bondhus keys I have broken were older ball end screwdriver types, were I broke the ball off, and those had translucent acetate handles, and a browned “rust” finish, so they must have predated the Proguard finish and maybe the current steel alloy or hardening process.
The gold proguard SAEs seem to have good fitments, I fee like they are better than many generic L-keys for sure. It maybe that finish that gives them a little big of better, less sloppy fit. They are almost too tight in a couple places, tho...the ball end goes into some things pretty easily (due to chamfer) whereas, on the same fitting, with the same key... the standard end almost gets stuck...!
At work my issued hex keys are a mix of Eklind (long ball end T, ball end L) and Bondhus (Short straight end T), I don't use the Eklinds unless I absolutely have to for access because the Bondhus fit tighter and don't strip the fastener nearly as often as the Eklinds.
I don't doubt Eklinds can often get the job done, but needing to concentrate or work harder to do the same task doesn't make sense to me.
This is more about those times that you can only get one hand it, or there's crude buried in the hole, ****** up that hex once is enough to warrant a better tool. In this case almost the same price for what seems like a better product, and better chance of success.
___________
personal rant- why tf can't the figure out how to put a simple grind process in the production line to clean up the ends???
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Odd-job
Well-known member
This video made me realize I have a slight problem... in that I have somehow collected all three of the "top" hex key brands already. Knurled PB Swiss are what I reach for first just because they feel so nice in the hand. I agree with many here that they are on the pricey side, but they last so long the amortized cost isn't so bad for frequently used sizes. While Weras are nice, I still view them as overlapping with RBRT which does a better job with rounded allen heads IMHO.
The max ball angle of usage was an interesting metric. I probably haven't used the ball end enough to appreciate the greater angle of usage as I tend to go to some effort to work around obstructions with stubby bit sockets and universal joints to get better engagement with the fastener.
The max ball angle of usage was an interesting metric. I probably haven't used the ball end enough to appreciate the greater angle of usage as I tend to go to some effort to work around obstructions with stubby bit sockets and universal joints to get better engagement with the fastener.
I recommend the Bondhus, thats what I use.
Dont mistake me pointing out that the test equipment wasn't capable of testing the tools correctly as a suggestion to buy the one that failed the test.
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totally agree that the test rig isnt perfect + the allen wrench def shouldnt shoot out of your hand!I do think the TTC folks do a good job, but its no substitute for real world usage and experience
I've had two sets of the Wera allens and work with several other people who also use them and the sleeves that are on them constantly come off (even super gluing them back on doesnt last) and if the sleeve gets damaged they get stuck going in and out of the holder which is really annoying too plus if you take the seeve off they wont fit in the holder anymore.
Also can't cut them down like most other full hex allens if the ball end snaps off.
Best thing about them though is they are super durable, the head is still like new even after several years of daily use.
Also can't cut them down like most other full hex allens if the ball end snaps off.
Best thing about them though is they are super durable, the head is still like new even after several years of daily use.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Why didn't you measure across the flats and points to verify your contention?
-Possible, Bondhus may also use a different process for creating the ball end now, several companies use the process developed at Eklind in the mid 90's. The old(er) process Bondhus used may have been a different neck profile, I haven't seen/measured a newer hex key from them so I wouldn't know. For that matter most of my hex keys are 30 years old, my newest set is a 5 year old set from Wiha the company purchased. I only used them for 1-2 years on injection molds, not the same severe duty as stamping dies IMO.
-Grinding isn't a suitable method for these. The ends can be made to look less ragged but that's a function of how the die is set-up and maintained.
-They all wear/deform if they're used often enough. Grinding the worn/deformed portion back is an everyday occurrence in machine shops. Even the case hardened (black finish) SHCS need to be replaced now and then for the same reasons. I suppose it's possible that the quality of many hex key makers has fallen off, I've been gone for a few decades and won't defend what I haven't tested.
DaveAndStuff
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To get more angle with the ball end, do you not just pull them out a bit or am I missing something?
RoninB4
Well-known member
-I suppose you can do that. In lifting the ball out of the socket opening you're losing some contact and increasing the torque needed because you're not aligned with the fastener axis. If you're just spinning the fastener in/out then it's not a big deal. If attempting to crack loose the fastener for the first time......bad things will likely follow from using a ball end for this purpose. You already knew this.
DaveAndStuff
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I think, but I am not sure, that the geometry of the ball is such that the contact area remains pretty constant until it posts out of the socket.
Whether you lift ball a bit, or not, tilting the wrench takes it out of line with the fastener axis. I think the only way to get a greater angle is to cut more relief.
Did the video test the ball ends for failure? I don't remember
I only ever really use the ball-ends to run the screws in.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
If every other top-tier hex key could complete the task, but the Eklind couldn't, it says more about the tool than how it was being used, IMO. It's softer, with a poorer fit, which makes it want to deform and slip out. There where many situations inside CNC machines where I had to reach deep inside, blind, with a hex key and there was no way to brace the key in the screw.
Surely you're not suggesting that Eklind invented polygon turning, are you? That's how the ball ends are formed on most keys that I'm aware of.
This makes no sense. Using the ball for "standard-end" tasks obviously isn't a good test of ball design. If you need a ball end, eg due to obstruction, that's going to exist for BOTH removal and replacement.
If you have a straigh run, use standard ends.
Unless you just want the chamfer?eg for ease of tool insertion? but again that's a design flaw on your standard ends. That mix of clearance spec and edge-relief that is part of the design. As much as people like to **** on PB swiss for their slightly loose fit, they don't have insertion problems on the standard ends.
Bondhus, on the other hand, sometimes you can't even get the damn things in there...
@RoninB4 I appreciate your background, seems you have insight to the operation and design
What would it take to make the end clean and chamfered like all the others?
Also.... why haven't they been able to execute that for the last 40yrs?
RoninB4
Well-known member
-"Couldn't" isn't very factual, chose not to would be more accurate. I won't defend that choice either but that's how many of the other makers left theirs back then because they also chose not to finish the ends.
-Surely you're not suggesting that "developed" is the same as "invented" are you? If you read my post(s) I've never stated or suggested that polygon turning was invented by Eklind, it was merely developed for creating ball ends on hex keys. Bondhus wasn't using this method, nor was any other maker to my knowledge until the mid 90's.
-Your insight to the industry is quite valuable here, perhaps you could determine which maker was the first to adopt this method? Why weren't ball end hex keys more commonly offered prior to the mid 90's?
RoninB4
Well-known member
-My knowledge/experience is from the mid 90's, any updates to the manufacturing methods currently being used is unknown to me.
-A secondary operation to clean up one end. The ball end could be more finished at the ball tip by programming a starting point for the ball that includes a clean up cut. I had the programs doing that in the very beginning but it was decided, by those that signed my paycheck, that the extra fraction of a second to do this was wasted time/material. That's why the ball end aren't as finished as some other makers. There's also a small detail about cutting speed/pressure at the tip but that's a minor discussion for another time.
-The ends could be a less ragged cut but that's more of a function of die clearance and how sharp the part-off station is. That's often a discretionary procedure by the individual die-maker. It was more important to me when I worked there. Eklind didn't/doesn't consider this to be much more than a visual/cosmetic feature that doesn't greatly affect the function. Product cost takes priority over cosmetic appeal here. I can't speak for why other makers can afford the extra operation for products made in their Third World factories but it should be fairly obvious why.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
No idea. Mechanical synchronized polygonal turning has existed since the late 1800s. Automatic bar-fed single and multispindle lathes with polygonal attachments existed, too. There is no reason any company couldn't have been making ball-end hex keys with polygonal turning in the 70s and 80s, unless they were patent encumbered.
Never gave much thought to the idea it could have been done any other way.
DaveAndStuff
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I find the shorter leg end easier to turn than the long end when running the screws in. The ball is on the opposite end, so it goes in the screw. When I loosen or tighten the screw, I used the long end (with the ball) as a handle, and the short end with the square end inserted into the screw.
I have never used PB Swiss tools, much less spoken negatively of them. To be honest, I have never given hex keys a lot of thought. But for a few SG sets, they have all served me well and been trouble free.
Bondhus, on the other hand, sometimes you can't even get the damn things in there...
Now you're starting to sound like my wife,
RoninB4
Well-known member
-I agree
-That's nice to see you looked something up but this isn't mechanically synchronized
-Perhaps so but there's a reason(s) those weren't widespread through metalworking or in use for high volume production. Bondhus wasn't using it either for their single focus production. Why not?
-"No reason" is a rather flat, declarative statement but still fails to explain why it wasn't used.
-A pity Johnny Bondhus hadn't consulted with you to save himself a lot of trouble and expense in 1964.
-The patent lawyers said that a ball was too generic/universal a shape to patent but his process and neck profile might have been a problem. Offshore makers would have been even more free to make a ball end but they didn't did they? Why not? Why did they wait to offer a ball end after the mid 90's if polygonal turning has been around since the 1800's? Why didn't Bondhus use this process either?
-A bit surprising considering you had enough thought to quote me and offer your opinions posted earlier.
-Admirable that you hold true to the scope of your own vision. Any competent machinist I've ever talked to guessed how Bondhus made theirs.
Eklind is a perfect example of a MiUSA heritage brand that has stopped improving and relies solely on performance and business strategies from 50+ yrs ago
Hard to throw money and support behind a company that's basically given up
Here's a prediction market bet-
The current model of Eklind goes out of business in 24 months
Hard to throw money and support behind a company that's basically given up
Here's a prediction market bet-
The current model of Eklind goes out of business in 24 months
DaveAndStuff
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Maybe if they painted them different colors and charged twice as much they could grow their market share.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
Eklind isn’t going out of business. Last time I checked they are still a major supplier for industrial and truck companies. Literally every shop uses Eklind or Bondhus because that is what McMaster, MSC, and Grainger carry.
And I don’t know what innovative products they are supposed to come up with. They make hex keys. Grip Edge and Wera seem to have patents because no one is copying them. And Bondhus doesn’t have anything innovative either. And as far as quality, my dudes, Bondhus quality blows *** too. Only their gold/silver sets are absolutely mint. All my ProGaurd finish or whatever they call it have had issues over the years. I’m talking warped and bent keys, uneven finish application, incorrect sizing, and cut ends. In fact, over the years I’d say my Eklind keys have had better QC. And I’m not knocking Bondhus, I just don’t think they are any better than Eklind with all the years I’ve been working with hex keys. In fact, outside of Wera and Grip Edge I don’t think any of the other brands have any big advantages over another.
And no offense to TTC or Project Farm but their tests aren’t real life daily use and it’s only good for a reference and entertainment. I feel the same way about their ratchet and wrench comparisons. Get into a real shop and watch how all the asshats and wonder boys work their hex keys and other tools and those guys would realize real quick their tests aren’t jack.
Its clear eklind product design is just lazy.
That being said, there is a metric ton of basic allen keys stocked/ sold at ACE and other HW stores, mcmaster carr, fastenal, etc and OEM placed in packages etc, ikea, whatever...where every 1/20th of a cent is probably fought over by some business manager...strictly due to large volumes of units being moved.
And When the tools are priced/sold as throwaway, you can still have better and worse quality tools in that box. I bet Eklind still is better than a lot of junk included in OEM freebie toolkits from the XYZ widget company.
But for anyone using tools seriously (ie repeatedly, especially over months/years), you can appreciate details like the chamfered ends on hex keys, and the better finishes, and other things that will get lost in a throway application.
I don't have a problem with "different strokes, for different folks" in this regard.
That being said, there is a metric ton of basic allen keys stocked/ sold at ACE and other HW stores, mcmaster carr, fastenal, etc and OEM placed in packages etc, ikea, whatever...where every 1/20th of a cent is probably fought over by some business manager...strictly due to large volumes of units being moved.
And When the tools are priced/sold as throwaway, you can still have better and worse quality tools in that box. I bet Eklind still is better than a lot of junk included in OEM freebie toolkits from the XYZ widget company.
But for anyone using tools seriously (ie repeatedly, especially over months/years), you can appreciate details like the chamfered ends on hex keys, and the better finishes, and other things that will get lost in a throway application.
I don't have a problem with "different strokes, for different folks" in this regard.
neophyte
Well-known member
Bondhus is an “Industrial” quality tool producer, in the older sense of the word.
The goal is to make durable tools for industrial use, that get the job done, repeatedly, whole not costing premium prices in the high end like Snap-On.
Martin tools such as wrenches, Vaughan hammers, Proto to a certain extent, Wright, formerly Bonney, etc., are this type of tool manufacturer.
Back in the day Allen probably was as well.
Manufacturers like this may occasionally try to make nicer models of items, but their main business is supplying a tool that might have rough edges, but which is durable enough to do the job 12 hours s day, till the customer has forgotten which industrial store they bought the tool from.
neophyte
Well-known member
I think the “rainbow” sets of hex keys may have started with PB Swiss, back when they went by PB Baumann, (at least the current trend), although maybe there were other manufacturers doing something similar in Japan or elsewhere.
In a practical sense, the rainbow colors do make it easier to keep track of a specific key for a specific fastener, although I think the trend might have just started as a “designer” way for PB to go after aesthetic geared customers, or for different workers to keep track of individually owned tools.
Given how expensive PB Swiss tools usually where compared to other high end tools, the color variation was likely just a less expensive way for PB to expand product line size by simply buying some different powder coat colors.