TV in the garage tip for middle aged guys

[jdoering]

Sammerdog - what's your TV model out of curiousity? The whole cable-ready bit has me curious.

Things are straightening out. Audio and video can be transmitted either analog or digital. Digital transmissions can either be encoded (and possibly encrypted) data or essentially raw.

RG6 coax (not older RG59) is fine for transmitting ENCODED digital HD content throughout a house from either satellite dishes or a cable TV feed or an OTA attenna. It can also handle RAW analog SD content (old analog cable, output from any analog SD coax device). It is not used to transmit raw digital HD video data to an output device.

An encoded digital signal has to be decoded. If it's not encrypted then it's just a matter of the target device having the right decoder/tuner. Most recent digital TVs can handle decoding an OTA encoded digital signal directly. So they can be driven right off of the RG6 if you are set up with an OTA antenna.

But if it's encrypted (satellite TV and most if not all HD cable) then special hardware is needed to handle the encryption (typically a CableCard for cable or some kind of access card for Sat). Most TVs do NOT support these kind of cards meaning that some kind of settop box will be needed regardless of TV claims of DCR, etc. The set top box should definitely have a coax input for the encoded signal but you won't want to output using coax for the raw signal to the display device. It won't be HD if you use such and output. HDMI (digital audio+video) or component plus digital audio via either digital coax (basically something like RG6 with RCA connectors) or optical fiber connections is ideal to your TV and/or receiver.

Running cable for satellite is a bit more complicated as you may need a multiswitch to feed multiple drops from one dish (versus cable / antenna where the cables for all runs are just connected with a simple splitter). You still only need one RG6 from the multiswitch to each of your drops but you probably need several RG6 feeds (4 is ideal last time I messed with satellite; I don't know if any of the new dishes need more) to your multiswitch.

-Jeff

 

[jdoering]

Sorry, re-read your posts and have a few more questions.

I think you have cable from a traditional cable-provider right; Cablevision?

Do you get digital cable or analog cable? If it's digital do you subscribe to HD channels? How is the TV by the bar you mentioned hooked up? Do you get any premium channels from your provider?

I'm trying to understand what kind of signal you have coming in to make sense of how the converters you're proposing will work.

-Jeff

 

[sammerdog]

Howdy jdoering -

Okay - there's two TV's involved -

At work - it's a new 37" Olevia (sp?). The "cablevision" I'm alluding to is technically a "DirectTV" feed that comes through a small silver box which contains a cable card (essentially the size of a credit card). I am attempting to splice into that line downstream of the box so both the new TV and the old one behind the bar can run the same program (...or DVD montage of little Betsy's wedding photos) simultaneously.

At home (gosh this is embarrassing), I have a 19" GE Performance Plus with Quartz Electronic tuning from the early 80's. Push button, she is. Also covered with My Little Pony stickers from when my Daughters were little. But I want to be ready if I ever hit the Irish sweepstakes and can afford to upgrade.

My garage unit has always been rabbit ears, but my oldest boy was caught with his pants down when the switch was thrown for Hi-Def, so I sent him my de-scrambler box down to North Carolina.

 

[Torque1st]

Kind of a jackass aren't you?

Not really, but you simply fail to understand what I have repeated many times! It is not that difficult.

 

[Stuart in MN]

This may be an obvious question, but what does the owner's manual say about hooking up this television?

I just looked at the owner's manual for a 37" Olevia online and it showed a regular coax connector on the back, but maybe that was a different model than the one you have.

 

[sammerdog]

This may be an obvious question, but what does the owner's manual say about hooking up this television?

I just looked at the owner's manual for a 37" Olevia online and it showed a regular coax connector on the back, but maybe that was a different model than the one you have.

^^^^^^^ YES!!!!!! That really is what ticked me off the most - in the printed "User's Quick Guide", they show a coax port right next to the red/yellow/black portals, but THERE IS NOT ONE ON THE TV!

There is also a DVD owner's manual, but no, I have not watched it.

 

[jmh21586]

Not really, but you simply fail to understand what I have repeated many times! It is not that difficult.

Coax cannot support 1080p.


And by "many times", you mean twice.

 

[Torque1st]

^^^^^^^ YES!!!!!! That really is what ticked me off the most - in the printed "User's Quick Guide", they show a coax port right next to the red/yellow/black portals, but THERE IS NOT ONE ON THE TV!

There is also a DVD owner's manual, but no, I have not watched it.

Did you get the unit at some discount house? They frequently have features removed from brand name products to reduce cost.

 

[E.rodz]

what do you need a tv in the garage for anyway?LOL.I wish you the best.

 

[Torque1st]

Coax cannot support 1080p.


And by "many times", you mean twice.

Yes it can, where do you think the 1080P signal comes from in the first place?

 

[Stuart in MN]

jmh21586 - it seems like you understand this stuff so you probably realize that with the exception of digital OTA the answer is no. Maybe limited unecrypted digital HD from a cable provider - but I don't think much HD content is really sent unecrypted from cable providers.

-Jeff

It may be different in other parts of the country, but here (with Comcast) the local stations are available in high definition unencrypted. I haven't gotten around to upgrading to HD service yet but I can watch ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, Fox and an independent channel, right off the cable coming into the house without a converter box. All the HD pay channels are encrypted, of course.

 

[bmwpower]

what do you need a tv in the garage for anyway?LOL.I wish you the best.

Speed channel for one thing. It's nice to pop your head out of the engine bay every once in a while and take a peek. Not like I sit there in an easy chair or anything, but it's nice to watch every once in a while.

 

[Torque1st]

Speed channel for one thing. It's nice to pop your head out of the engine bay every once in a while and take a peek. Not like I sit there in an easy chair or anything, but it's nice to watch every once in a while.

Or just keep an ear on things so you know when to pop your head out...

 

[jdoering]

It may be different in other parts of the country, but here (with Comcast) the local stations are available in high definition unencrypted. I haven't gotten around to upgrading to HD service yet but I can watch ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, Fox and an independent channel, right off the cable coming into the house without a converter box. All the HD pay channels are encrypted, of course.

Good to know. I think it's essentially the same encoding as OTA HD digital then (QAM) and it works with your TV same as it OTA would.

-Jeff

 

[jdoering]

sammerdog - okay interesting. Quite a bit different problem than I was imagining. You're trying to share the decoded output of the DirectTV box with two TVs.

How is the existing TV connected to the DirectTV box; coax? If so then you're not talking HD content I assume. What output options does the DirectTV box have? (Probably a few.) You may have a few options here but it depends on the DirectTV box options; your connection to the existing TV; and making sure that you're not expecting HD/digital output to the new TV.

Finally if you can provide the new TV model information I'll take a peek (I didn't catch that it was at work so maybe you don't have those details right now).

As an aside do you actually have a DirectTV dish on premise or is it DirectTV service that some cable provider is giving you (so no local dish)?

Sorry for the 20-questions; but there are a lot of different considerations and it's easier to focus on your specific problem rather than try to explain all of them.

For your garage; what to run depends on similar questions. How do you expect to get your signal (local sat dish, cable provider, OTA); do you expect to get premium HD channels, etc? I assume for your garage you wouldn't be trying to share a signal with some other TV. In that case if you wanted any fancy stuff (sat, premium HD, etc) you'd have to have some kind of box in your garage and the box would want RG6 run there. Same if you're connecting to an OTA antenna. Not too much to choose from. If you did have a local sat dish you would have to make sure and home-run the wiring to your multiswitch (unless you only have one TV); you can't just splice into existing runs or you might end up limited in terms of sat dishes, channels supported, etc.

-Jeff

 

[jdoering]

BTW I've mungled "QAM" versus "ATSC" several times above. QAM is for cable, ATSC is for OTA. Mondern TVs may support both but apparently are generally required to support ATSC.

I don't think it matters much for this discussion (unless you're looking closely at a TV spec sheet) but I figured I'd correct before I get into trouble

 

[jdoering]

Yes it can, where do you think the 1080P signal comes from in the first place?

You guys are kind of arguing about apples and oranges. Yes, RG6 can carry an HD encoded (QAM, ATSC, whatever Sat uses) signal. So IF your TV can decoded the signal, then RG6 can deliver HD all the way to your TV.

BUT many signals are encoded (Sat, premium HD cable, Blu-Ray, etc) in a way that can NOT be decoded directly by your TV. In this case some kind of set-top box, player, etc is required. These devices will output a relatively raw signal either digital or analog. Both digital and analog outputs can be used for HD but the connection from this device to your TV cannot be coax and still HD. I guess it's conceptually possible for the device to decrypt/decode and then re-encode but I don't think it ever works that way in practice (it would be really silly and maybe expensive for the hardware). Some newer devices (like Blu-Ray) actually forbid such things as they do not allow highest quality digital output unencrypted. I suspect that Sat and Cable have similar restrictions. In fact Blu-Ray has provisions to eventually even disallow the highest quality analog output (1080p) over component due to concerns about access to the unencrypted data - then only digital HDMI can do it all.

So RG6 is not used to carry 1080p from a decoding device to a display only for getting encoded 1080p content to the decoding device. Sometimes the decoding device and the display are one and the same and then RG6 is doing it all.

-Jeff

 

[Torque1st]

Just like Stuart I get a number of HD channels over my coax. The coax is not only carrying a HD signal but it is carrying dozens of HD signals and hundreds of SD channels along with broadband internet and VOIP at the same time. Some encrypted, some not. How many HD signals can HDMI carry simultaneously? There is nothing "old school" or "low quality" about coax.

 

[jake00]

Yes. thats what I mean. But it's also refered to as digital coaxial.

.

yea, I have just never seen a red white and blue one.

 

[djd99]

Just like Stuart I get a number of HD channels over my coax. The coax is not only carrying a HD signal but it is carrying dozens of HD signals and hundreds of SD channels along with broadband internet and VOIP at the same time. Some encrypted, some not. How many HD signals can HDMI carry simultaneously? There is nothing "old school" or "low quality" about coax.

This is true Torque if you set has a hdtv tuner as when you connect your rg6 you can scan hd channels, If your set does not have a built in tuner witch many of the first generation plasmas and lcds sets did not have a hd tuner, you need to buy a external hd tuner to make you set work.
I have basic cable and my set has a built in tuner I can scan 15 hd channels just by hooking up the rg6. Now if you set is hd ready you need a cable box, sat receiver, or external hd tuner box to get that hd picture everyone want's.
It sounds like the op set is only a monitor witch he will need an external tuner to make that set work. Here's the rule of thumb when it comes to the connections.....
Coax= minimal
Composite=better
S-video= slightly better
Componant(RGB)=2nd best only carries video
HDMI= This is the best to date....... This connection carries video and audio

 

[Torque1st]

That "rule of thumb" is misleading. I have a feeling it is trying to say that a device with only a coax output is old and only will supply a SD signal. Something like an old VCR.

My Vizio HDTV is 1080P and I get a number (I have not counted recently) of HD channels over a direct coax input. The same input can be used with an antenna to pick up broadcast HD programming. It is also hooked to the HD DVR which is connected to the SAME coax cable to un-encrypt all the other paid channels. The COAX is simultaneously carrying ALL the signals being decoded into HD or SD signals. It is not inferior in quality. It is superior to all the other single signal only connections that are derived from it.

 

[nate379]

Man you guys are making my head hurt!

All I know is Direct TV wanted something like $100/month for HD TV. I switched to normal "standard" TV for $45/month and have not noticed any difference other than more money in my pocket.

 

[blackice]

Don't feel old, I am only 27, and have no clue about any of this new tv wiring ****.... damn, I feel old... haha

 

[djd99]

That "rule of thumb" is misleading. I have a feeling it is trying to say that a device with only a coax output is old and only will supply a SD signal. Something like an old VCR.

My Vizio HDTV is 1080P and I get a number (I have not counted recently) of HD channels over a direct coax input. The same input can be used with an antenna to pick up broadcast HD programming. It is also hooked to the HD DVR which is connected to the SAME coax cable to un-encrypt all the other paid channels. The COAX is simultaneously carrying ALL the signals being decoded into HD or SD signals. It is not inferior in quality. It is superior to all the other single signal only connections that are derived from it.

No torque your coax is acting as a antenna only and your hdtv tuner is decoding the signal witch gives your local hd channels, Actually you don't even need an antenna in some situations as sometimes you can connect a coax hooked to absolutely nothing and still bring in hd channels but not as many, think of it like a stereo receiver you get nothing without a wire connected to it, but as soon as you connect a 3' section of wire now you can bring in stations.
Channels very depending on your location, to get the maximum number of local hd content A good rooftop channel master antenna and rotor
with quad rg6 is the way to go and in my case I even through in a amplifier into the mix and get excellent results.
If you want more than just local hd you need a hd cable or sat box capable. Charter here in michigan gives a decent channel section for the money but as far as i'm concerned I would rather have dish network or direct tv. My cable box looses signal every 4 months on there end and needs a service call whenever this happens. I never had this many problems before with dish network. I would go back to dish but I have a hell of a deal with charter where you get hd box,internet and phone for under 100 bucks.

 

[C G]

Man you guys are making my head hurt!

All I know is Direct TV wanted something like $100/month for HD TV. I switched to normal "standard" TV for $45/month and have not noticed any difference other than more money in my pocket.

I'm with you about the head hurting. I hate having to use a bunch of remotes and try and find HD vs regular whatever they call it now is.

We have an Olivia 1080p. When we got it I ran the Comcast whatever it is cable they supply us with directly to the back of the TV and screwed it in. Simple, one remote. We had basic cable, something like channels 1-99. Cheap and easy. We also got all the major networks in HD with no box **** needed.

Then all analog channels went away. We still got the major network stuff and still in HD, but the Speeds and History etc etc we couldn't get anymore. Totally gone...just a black screen.

No problem sir, we will send you the digital converter boxes no charge for however many TV's you have. Bah, fine I can live with that...now two remotes for each TV.

Installed the boxes and got all our channels back...BUT...we lost ALL HD capability that was built into our TV. Called Comcast...oh to get HD Channels you have to have the special HD converter box, that's another 10 bucks a month (and a remote that continues to piss me off). The only good thing about it is we do get more HD channels, just didnt really want them.

I stuck one of our old perfectly good tube TVs in my shop. I don't care about HD out there, just wanna be able to have TV. But now I need another one of those little boxes to get our 1-99 channels. This one isnt free, they want to charge for it. I hope to figure a way around this...maybe someone on Craigslist is selling one...LOL..

I thought things were supposed to be getting less convoluted and easier to deal with, seems like its just getting worse to me.

 

[jdoering]

That "rule of thumb" is misleading. I have a feeling it is trying to say that a device with only a coax output is old and only will supply a SD signal. Something like an old VCR.

Good point. The rule of thumb makes the most sense when applied to the OUTPUT of typical consumer electronics. In that context it's usually right; coax = NTSC 480i modulated audio+video the worst way to get the data to your display. On up the chain to composite and S-video. Things are more complicated at the component versus digital output (HDMI) step due to some HDMI compatibility headaches but if it works it should be great.

Comparing the bandwidth of the incoming wire of encoded signals to connects from the decoder to output equipment is again kind of apples-to-oranges since the incoming signal is extremely compressed whereas the output (HDMI carrying video, DTS audio, etc) is uncompressed. Many more channels multiplexed on the incoming connection versus much higher data transfer rate for a single channel on the connection to the display. You can actually use RG6 cable for a component video connection for example in that situation the video + audio has 5 times the raw bandwidth of the single incoming connection. But again it's a fairly pointless comparison. When the decoder and display are one unit it's all magic and none of this matters. Too bad all of the encryption junk makes set-top boxes a necessity for a lot of people

This has turned into a funny thread for this forum though - probably scare folks into sticking to romex questions

The bottom line is that RG-6 (or 2 for extra) run to each location from a central point (not arbitrarily split and such) is the right way to go for most folks. It's not outdated, etc. You may or may not need a set-top box at each location depending on your TV and what kind of content you're viewing. But for video don't use single-connection coax between electronics components you own unless you understand this stuff well and know why it's the right solution.

The OP's situation is unique though because he wants to share video output between two TV's after the set-top device. Normal home wiring is not optimized to solve this problem. I'm still not sure on the best solution without more details regarding his setup.

-Jeff

 

[glennm]

Hi Guys:

Lots of good information here and lots of confusion. First, I would say that having a nice TV with a 16 x 9 display is a reason to make sure you can view hi def material !!! If you don't really care then put the old tv in the garage and the new one in the house. Otherwise, make sure you have an HD video source in the house such as a direct tv sat box or cable converter. Now, if you wish to view the same channels on all tv's then you can split the signal after the box and that will work fine -- only problem is you cannot use coax to carry that signal to the garage. A good solution for long runs is a cat 6 balun ( http://www.svideo.com/500400.html ) This will allow you to run hdmi over cat 5 for a long distance and then a very small box converts the signal back to HDMI at the TV -- as I mentioned before -- you can only watch the same channel as they are watching in the house. The other solution would be to split the cable or sat signal before the box, run the coax out to the garage and put an HD receiver at the tv -- you will have full access to everything out there !! That would be my choice and the cost for the extra receiver will be minimum. You will need to check with your cable or sat company to be sure that your able to have HD -- with sat you have to change the dish as well. I would say, if you have a new TV you need HD to make it worthwhile, yes, I know you can stretch the picture to fit but anyone here that has true HD will agree with me that this is an unacceptable solution. Do it right and you will enjoy the garage even more !!!! Hope this helps.

 

[jake00]

I'm with you about the head hurting. I hate having to use a bunch of remotes .

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=39

its the only remote have, Controls Audio, cable box, Tv, lights, fan

 

[Torque1st]

No torque your coax is acting as a antenna only and your hdtv tuner is decoding the signal witch gives your local hd channels, Actually you don't even need an antenna in some situations as sometimes you can connect a coax hooked to absolutely nothing and still bring in hd channels but not as many, think of it like a stereo receiver you get nothing without a wire connected to it, but as soon as you connect a 3' section of wire now you can bring in stations.
Channels very depending on your location, to get the maximum number of local hd content A good rooftop channel master antenna and rotor
with quad rg6 is the way to go and in my case I even through in a amplifier into the mix and get excellent results.
If you want more than just local hd you need a hd cable or sat box capable. Charter here in michigan gives a decent channel section for the money but as far as i'm concerned I would rather have dish network or direct tv. My cable box looses signal every 4 months on there end and needs a service call whenever this happens. I never had this many problems before with dish network. I would go back to dish but I have a hell of a deal with charter where you get hd box,internet and phone for under 100 bucks.

Wrong! My cable is not acting as an antenna. I have a local cable service that supplies many stations in HD. I am not just receiving the local broadcast stations. I also get other HD stations. My cable service is fiber to the home and I have had ZERO problems with it.

 

[Torque1st]

irrelevant

 

[bannedleader]

Young runny nosed kids probably know all about this, but for us mature guys.....

.....one of my jobs found me mounting a new flat screen TV in a banquet room. We have cablevision into the building over by the bar, so no big deal, right? Ran up to Menard's, grabbed an old work box, outlet, some R6 coaxial for work, and figured as long as I was there, grabbed a 100' roll of R6 for my garage at home.

Hung the mounting bracket, borrowed some 110 from an underused circuit, chased my electrical and R6 down into the wall from above.

Got ready to hang up the TV. Friggin thing doesn't have a coaxial socket. HIDI, MIDI, and a bunch of other wacky openings, but NO normal run of the mill co-ax hook up. I'll deal with it again Monday and go to plan "B"..... not sure what plan "B" is right now, but I'll ni.... oops, er I mean Jerry-rig something.

....at the house though, I'm thinkin maybe I should run something other than coaxial out to my garage in case I ever grab a flat screen out there.

Full disclosure: I feel like an *** for not looking at the back of the TV before running co-ax, but it was labeled "Cable Ready! No Converter Needed!" Dang technology.

Don`t know which is more offensive..."NI...." or "Jerry-rig" cheers! Jerry

 

[Beartrkrr]

Try this site for all you misc cables, adapters, and such. There is no reason a relatively simple adapter or cable should cost a ton of money.

http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp

I bought 10' of vga cable with audio plug to pipe ESPN 360 from my wireless laptop to a new Vizio 32' (720p) tv to catch a few football games that weren't broadcast locally this fall. Cost about $10 shipped to my door.

 

[ratdoggy]

I used them and could not believe how much cheaper they were than Wally World. Probably 75% cheaper and they had wei sizes too. I wanted a 15' HDMI and all Walmart had was 6' and 8'. tried Best Buy too They had super expensive ones but in every size other than the one I wanted. Give them a try.

 

[sammerdog]

Okay - Mission Accomplished.

The Olevia TV did NOT contain an internal tuner, so to me it is a "monitor with speakers", not a HDTV ready TV, like they advertised on the box.

Popped up a bazillion ceiling tiles and finally found where the Direct TV cable entered the bar area. Mounted on the wall up there was a One into Eight multiplier. I ran a length of R6 from there into a storage room near the monitor. In the storage room, I mounted a Direct TV converter box which I "borrowed" from an unused room at the hotel. Ran my R6 into the "over air" input jack. Ran a length of red/yellow/white cable from the output side into a DVD player I "borrowed" from a conference room. From there, I did have to make my last leg through the walls with a fresh length of red/yellow/white cable.

We now have TV & video capabilities, but the dang VGA jack on the rear doesn't want to recognize the signal from our sales dept's flash player (little memory card that will scroll on the monitor "Welcome Plumber's Union 207" or "Welcome Adult Video Actresses Guild").

Anyways - there was a wedding there this weekend. Found a pair of women's ******* in the men's room. Someone had fun during the reception, but man - she was a big gal. Left them there for the Bosnian housekeeping guy to find. He got a giggle out of it. Some things are universal.

Bottom line - PITA project. At the house, I'm going to go ahead and run my R6 to the garage and take Jack Olsen's advice to "...add a cheap DVD player by your TV". Basically what I did at work.

Thank you for all the advice guys!

 

[sammerdog]

Oh yeah - and on the yellow/white/red cable..... I needed a 12' length. Ran to Menard's. They were sold out, but the card on the shelf was labled something around the $6.50 neighborhood. So I ran up to the Radio Shack in the strip mall. $17.99. Holy ****.

 

[djd99]

Oh yeah - and on the yellow/white/red cable..... I needed a 12' length. Ran to Menard's. They were sold out, but the card on the shelf was labled something around the $6.50 neighborhood. So I ran up to the Radio Shack in the strip mall. $17.99. Holy ****.

Very nice to hear you finally got it installed, HDTV ready means no hd tuner in the set. Most early version sets were hd ready, I thought all sets now had hd tuners being the new digital transition in all but that's still one way to cheap out a set. And I agree use radio shack as a last resort as there prices are ridiculous. I have 3 lcd's and 1 plasma in the house and all have a hd tuner except the very first lcd I bought back in 2005.

 

[viper522]

for about $100 you could have done it wirelessly, just FYI
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002EXJ8Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20