two 120V breakers tied together

[CraigStu]

I was in the triple switch on the wall in the kitchen and managed to touch the ground wire for the disposal to a hot lug on the light switch next to it. The breaker for this is in the garage so I hope that counts so I can ask a question here. So after well over an hour of being baffled I went back to the breaker.

You can see the double 30s above my hand tied together as most 240V breakers are. But the double 15s to the left of my hand were also tied together w/ the plastic piece I am holding up. One is for the disposal and one is for the dishwasher. The problem was that the disposal breaker had tripped but when I moved both to try to reset them apparently the disposal breaker didn't move far enough to reset. Once I removed the tie piece, it was obvious by feel that the disposal breaker had not reset. At this point I am thinking trash the plastic piece but, since I don't understand it's use, I thought I should ask here. BTW, under the sink there is a metallic outlet box. It has a about 1 inch OD plastic wire shield coming out of the side and going??? maybe to the dishwasher in the next cabinet. It also has a standard 120V outlet that the disposal is plugged into. I assume that since it is a handy location they also tapped it for power for the lights over the sink. Makes sense, the lights are led so no problem overloading the disposal circuit, the switches are right next to each other, so I like the setup. What do you think, trash the plastic piece or?????

 

[PCustoms]

Put it back.

Mwbc are tied together.

 

[jdm5]

most likely multi wire branch circuit mwbc - the two loads are sharing a neutral. Do not remove the tie - it should have tripped both breakers when one tripped (I think it did based on your description?) - and there is an electrical forum this should be moved to.

 

[pattenp]

most likely multi wire branch circuit mwbc - the two loads are sharing a neutral. Do not remove the tie - it should have tripped both breakers when one tripped (I think it did based on your description?) - and there is an electrical forum this should be moved to.

Two singles with a handle tie are independent trip. To reset one that tripped you push both fully to off and then back on. A double pole is common trip.

 

[CraigStu]

Thanks guys, I am glad I asked. I will put it back. I didn't check the disposal right away so not sure but I think both tripped. I think there is just enough slop, and the tie piece isn't real strong, that moving them as a pair, just missed moving the disposal breaker enough for it to reset. I think I also lose some feel because they are together. The untripped breaker masks the feel of the tripped breaker. I will put it back and, now that I know how it works, if I ever have a similar problem, I will know to be sure both breakers move fully.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The dishwasher breaker should be a GFCI, too.

Tommy

 

[rayra]

Maybe label them as such. Were there any panel markings in the cover. Don't see any next to the breakers.

 

[GJK1981]

I was in the triple switch on the wall in the kitchen and managed to touch the ground wire for the disposal to a hot lug on the light switch next to it. The breaker for this is in the garage so I hope that counts so I can ask a question here. So after well over an hour of being baffled I went back to the breaker.

You can see the double 30s above my hand tied together as most 240V breakers are. But the double 15s to the left of my hand were also tied together w/ the plastic piece I am holding up. One is for the disposal and one is for the dishwasher. The problem was that the disposal breaker had tripped but when I moved both to try to reset them apparently the disposal breaker didn't move far enough to reset. Once I removed the tie piece, it was obvious by feel that the disposal breaker had not reset. At this point I am thinking trash the plastic piece but, since I don't understand it's use, I thought I should ask here. BTW, under the sink there is a metallic outlet box. It has a about 1 inch OD plastic wire shield coming out of the side and going??? maybe to the dishwasher in the next cabinet. It also has a standard 120V outlet that the disposal is plugged into. I assume that since it is a handy location they also tapped it for power for the lights over the sink. Makes sense, the lights are led so no problem overloading the disposal circuit, the switches are right next to each other, so I like the setup. What do you think, trash the plastic piece or?????

Is it just a single receptacle, meaning duplex with garbage disposal only plugged in, and dishwasher hard wired to power source in box?? The receptacle only has power when switch is on because it’s a dedicated switch plug.

 

[GJK1981]

Is it just a single receptacle, meaning duplex with garbage disposal only plugged in, and dishwasher hard wired to power source in box?? The receptacle only has power when switch is on because it’s a dedicated switch plug.

Unless that box has a second wire coming from the panel, and it being the other 15 amp breaker supplying that circuit, that breaker is a lighting circuit for something else. Your garbage disposal and dishwasher should be supplied with 12/2 gauge Rolex and on a 20 amp circuit by code.

 

[GJK1981]

Unless that box has a second wire coming from the panel, and it being the other 15 amp breaker supplying that circuit, that breaker is a lighting circuit for something else. Your garbage disposal and dishwasher should be supplied with 12/2 gauge Rolex and on a 20 amp circuit by code.

The only things you should have on a 15 amp breaker are lighting circuits. They should be minimum 14/2 gauge Romex and all receptacle and dedicated appliances on 12/2 romex .

 

[ddawg16]

Personally, I'd replace those 2 breakers with a single double breaker.
It could get ugly is someone removed that tie bar not knowing what they are doing.

I don't like MWBC's

 

[GJK1981]

Personally, I'd replace those 2 breakers with a single double breaker.
It could get ugly is someone removed that tie bar not knowing I I believe whoever originally wired this garb. Disp. and dishwasher thought they were doing the right thing , as it more than likely is a multi circuit box more than likely. It should be checked or verified by removing the dead front panel cover and turning those circuits off, preferably the main supplying it first and then do a continuity test to be sure. Then check wire gauge and then determine exactly what’s what. If it’s 14gauge and that both circuits go to that box. If so the 15 amp molded circuit breaker that’s in there is fine it’s a“HOMELINE 15 amp breaker that was tied together I’m guessing is the installer wanted both circuits tripping due to it being a multi circuit junction box and if there was an overload it would shut both off simultaneously.

 

[mike93lx]

The only things you should have on a 15 amp breaker are lighting circuits. They should be minimum 14/2 gauge Romex and all receptacle and dedicated appliances on 12/2 romex .

Well that is just false.

15a is just fine for many receptacle circuits. Most would never get near needing more than that

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks guys, I am glad I asked. I will put it back. I didn't check the disposal right away so not sure but I think both tripped. I think there is just enough slop, and the tie piece isn't real strong, that moving them as a pair, just missed moving the disposal breaker enough for it to reset. I think I also lose some feel because they are together. The untripped breaker masks the feel of the tripped breaker. I will put it back and, now that I know how it works, if I ever have a similar problem, I will know to be sure both breakers move fully.

Tripped breakers don't flip all the way to off on their own. They go about halfway, to indicate they tripped, and then you have to flip them off before going back to on. Could that be what you encountered?

 

[GJK1981]

When dealing with motor load circuits, which both of these loads are, not to mention a pump and heating element included, things change. I am sorry you disagree, but your knowledge level may be tested from this point. You no longer figure your typical residential load calcs. at 80 percent. You now have to figure by full locked load amps. YOU MIGHT TRUST 14/2 romex but nobody that understands the NEC CODE, and state, county and city codes will require thes circuits to be of min. Wire gauge of 12/2. And dedicated with the panel labeled correctly of each load circuits.

 

[GJK1981]

Well that is just false.

15a is just fine for many receptacle circuits. Most would never get near needing more than that

One simple little portable 1500 watt heater is enough load to ruin your theory in a hurry. If you plugged anything else down line of that circuit it would exceed the recommended load on the rest of that row of receipts. If you ever felt the cord when running it’s warm to the touch. It’s always better to be safe, than right in cases like this. Hi

 

[mike93lx]

One simple little portable 1500 watt heater is enough load to ruin your theory in a hurry. If you plugged anything else down line of that circuit it would exceed the recommended load on the rest of that row of receipts. If you ever felt the cord when running it’s warm to the touch. It’s always better to be safe, than right in cases like this. Hi

It isn't a theory and it isn't debunked by the existence of 1500 watt space heaters

 

[GJK1981]

It isn't a theory and it isn't debunked by the existence of 1500 watt space heaters

 

[mike93lx]

When doing new work, I would definitely advocate for running 12/2 for receptacle circuits. But there is nothing wrong with 14/2 on an existing circuit.

 

[GJK1981]

Your right, it’s not a theory, it’s a mathematical fact if you read ohms law in an nec UGLY’s book by Mike Holt.

 

[Sumboodie]

The dishwasher breaker should be a GFCI, too.

Tommy

Mine isn't. House built in 2009.

 

[GJK1981]

Mine isn't. House built in 2009.

Your house doesn’t apply, it was in the last 12/16 months that this new code was added to NEC article 210.8(D) it’s referred to as an “outlet” not a receptacle which is what an appliance would plug into. There’s still some gray areas in the the description of exact location. Kitchen is there description requiring protection. In an island of an open area not exactly “kitchen is different and falls into gray area.

 

[dcg9381]

It isn't a theory and it isn't debunked by the existence of 1500 watt space heaters

I'm pretty sure we're all saying the same thing, but 1500 watts is 12.5A continuous. A 15A breaker is usually rated for 12A continuous load... (correct me if I've got it wrong)

 

[mike93lx]

I'm pretty sure we're all saying the same thing, but 1500 watts is 12.5A continuous. A 15A breaker is usually rated for 12A continuous load... (correct me if I've got it wrong)

It really doesn't matter, IMO. The mere existence of space heaters doesn't dictate how you should wire your house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

most likely multi wire branch circuit mwbc - the two loads are sharing a neutral. Do not remove the tie - it should have tripped both breakers when one tripped (I think it did based on your description?) - and there is an electrical forum this should be moved to.

nope handle ties are not designed to trip both breakers at the same time

Unless that box has a second wire coming from the panel, and it being the other 15 amp breaker supplying that circuit, that breaker is a lighting circuit for something else. Your garbage disposal and dishwasher should be supplied with 12/2 gauge Rolex and on a 20 amp circuit by code.

its an MWBC so of course there is a second ungrounded conductor. common practice for disp/dishwasher circuits

please cite the code that states that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The only things you should have on a 15 amp breaker are lighting circuits. They should be minimum 14/2 gauge Romex and all receptacle and dedicated appliances on 12/2 Romex .

according to what?

Personally, I'd replace those 2 breakers with a single double breaker.
It could get ugly is someone removed that tie bar not knowing what they are doing.

I don't like MWBC's

replacing it with a double pole breaker with single handle tie wont change the fact thats its an MWBC. Also, what an ignorant someone does in the future, is not the OP's problem, nor is in the scope of the NEC.

some ***** could do all sorts of shady **** in the future how is that the OPs concern?

When dealing with motor load circuits, which both of these loads are, not to mention a pump and heating element included, things change. I am sorry you disagree, but your knowledge level may be tested from this point. You no longer figure your typical residential load calcs. at 80 percent. You now have to figure by full locked load amps. YOU MIGHT TRUST 14/2 romex but nobody that understands the NEC CODE, and state, county and city codes will require these circuits to be of min. Wire gauge of 12/2. And dedicated with the panel labeled correctly of each load circuits.

youre comparing current/latest code to existing structures is a huge dose of flawed logic. most states arent even on the latest code and the OP doesnt have to bring things up to current code on an existing build so what you brought up here is a totally moot point.

One simple little portable 1500 watt heater is enough load to ruin your theory in a hurry. If you plugged anything else down line of that circuit it would exceed the recommended load on the rest of that row of receipts. If you ever felt the cord when running it’s warm to the touch. It’s always better to be safe, than right in cases like this. Hi

except thats not how the NEC works so....

Your house doesn’t apply, it was in the last 12/16 months that this new code was added to NEC article 210.8(D) it’s referred to as an “outlet” not a receptacle which is what an appliance would plug into. There’s still some gray areas in the the description of exact location. Kitchen is there description requiring protection. In an island of an open area not exactly “kitchen is different and falls into gray area.

and the latest code you keep bringing up doesnt apply to anyone in this thread since theyre all discussing existing structures. once again, bringing up non-relevant points that have nothing to do with existing structures.

The OP is not required to rewire his disp/D-W circuit because its wired with 14/2 on a 15a breaker as long as it passed when it was built.

again, why bring up non-relevant codes? youre only muddying the waters when you do so? maybe perhaps to flex some code knowledge muscle?

 

[Norcal]

The dishwasher breaker should be a GFCI, too.

Tommy

If it was installed prior to that requirement it's fine.

 

[GJK1981]

I'm pretty sure we're all saying the same thing, but 1500 watts is 12.5A continuous. A 15A breaker is usually rated for 12A continuous load... (correct me if I've got it wrong)

It was a simple example to show an average common household device that most people will use without thought and plug in bedroom or bathroom on cold mornings that has enough load, something like a blow dryer or curling iron in same receptacle or or wall receptacle on same circuit in a bedroom would cause it to trip a 15 amp breaker. If you had read the post from beginning to end, you probably wouldn’t have posted your two cents or exact wizardry anyway. The post I received before my example of an estimated load was that a 120V. 15 amp 14/2 gauge wire supplied multi circuit had more than load capability than what would or could be used. This was related to garbage disp. And dishwasher. I was told my statement was totally false that 12/2 wasn’t necassary and that 14/2 shouldn’t be limited to only lighting circuits. What does your Texas Instruments calculator say to that.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Thread back on track guys.

 

[dcg9381]

It was a simple example to show an average common household device that most people will use without thought and plug in bedroom or bathroom on cold mornings that has enough load, something like a blow dryer or curling iron in same receptacle or or wall receptacle on same circuit in a bedroom would cause it to trip a 15 amp breaker.

I agree with why you used that as an example. I think I'm not the droid you're looking for.

What does your Texas Instruments calculator say to that.

I actually still have a TI-85, but I didn't need it to do basic Ohms Law and know that consumer breakers are typically rated at 80% of capacity for continuous use.

Cliffs notes: Math + 80% breaker rule agrees with you, in terms of unsuitability of a 15A breaker for a 1500 watt heater.

My home and shop are all 12ga wired 20A, exactly for the reason you indicated.

 

[Jim greengo]

When dealing with motor load circuits, which both of these loads are, not to mention a pump and heating element included, things change. I am sorry you disagree, but your knowledge level may be tested from this point. You no longer figure your typical residential load calcs. at 80 percent. You now have to figure by full locked load amps. YOU MIGHT TRUST 14/2 romex but nobody that understands the NEC CODE, and state, county and city codes will require thes circuits to be of min. Wire gauge of 12/2. And dedicated with the panel labeled correctly of each load circuits.

If I was the 1 wiring the kitchen when it was done or redone I'd prefer to run 20a circuits for appliance circuits.
But since its existing and who knows when it was done,there's not much use worrying about it now.

 

[Jim greengo]

Mine isn't. House built in 2009.

Depends on where you are,and code cycle of nec house was wired under.

 

[mikedodge]

Most residential and even commercial don't have 20A circuits unless it's for something specific and most rarely have problems.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

If it was installed prior to that requirement it's fine.

Yes, I should have stated that.