Two breaker panels one service disconnect

[MoparTrucks]

I have a 60 amp service on a separate breaker panel for my shop that works fine but there is no grounding at all and I want to install a grounding rod and ground it. I "think" that it is a separate panel fed from the service disconnect since it is a 3 wire feed and that I should ground it with an 8 foot rod with 6 ga like a main panel.

It is an old 1938 farmhouse with an attached garage that has a newer (8 years) 150 amp breaker panel in the basement for the house and an old 60 amp breaker panel in the garage for the shop and both are fed through a 200 amp service disconnect on a power pole. The previous owner had the 60 amp added using the old house breaker panel and it looks like it is completely separate from the house panel.

One service line goes up the mast and then to a weatherhead and down another mast to the house panel and the other comes out of the bottom of the service disconnect and then into the garage to a 60 amp panel. There is no conduit or grounding between the two panels, no water lines etc. and I have no idea if the service disconnect was double tapped but the power company says it is okay (I haven't see it).

I understand the NEC requires that this be a sub panel if the garage is attached (again, the garage is attached and the panel is not a sub panel that I can tell) and that if you have two separate services they are supposed to be grouped so they can be accessed for shut off at the same time but I am more interested in just getting things grounded.

I live in an unincorporated area with no codes and have gotten two different answers from two different electricians (one said to ground with a grounding rod but that the neutral and ground should not be bonded which makes zero sense to me and the other said just the opposite and to ground it like a separate panel which is my thought as well).

Not looking to stir up a hornets nest here, just looking for opinions.

The power comes down the pole to the meter and then back up to go across to the weatherhead for the house panel and if you notice there is also a feed at the bottom of the meter base that goes underground to the garage and then up the wall and into the garage panel.

Weatherhead to the house 150amp panel in the basement.

Note that this garage panel is just screwed into the concrete block wall and that the 3 wire feed is coming out of a hole just drilled in the block,,,no connecting conduit of any type.

So...to recap. I think I need to just ground this like a main panel; I have no codes so inspection isn't an issue but I and looking to have a properly grounded service (including lightening protection), I have already had two electricians out and got two different answers, and I am just looking to see what some of you guys think.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

There is only 3 ways to do a feed to a detached structure.

And it depends on if there is a disconnect below the meter amd when the wiring was done.

If the shop is fed directly from the meter(no disconnect), then 3-wire is code. This means grounding electrodes and bonded neutral bus.

If fed from a disconnect, and wired pre 2008 nec code cycle, then 3-wire is also OK as long as there are no parallel metalic pathways. This also means bonded neutral and grounding electrodes

if on the other hand it is fed from a disconnrct and wired AFTER 2008 NEC code cycle then 3-wire is NOT permissible. This means 4-wire feeder(hot, hot, neutral, EGC/ground) and grounding electeode. Also, need to have isolated neutral bus.

So, when was this wired and is it fed by a disconnect?

You should have grounding electrodes no matter what.

 

[sberry]

A 3 wire feed needs to have bonded neutral and any equipment grounds bonded to it. When there is 4 wire we want to separate them and keep the neutrals insulated, the equipment then all tied together and a pathway thru the 4th wire back to the neutral at service main. 3 wire uses the bonded netral back to main.

 

[Bert_]

I would assume both the house and the garage are fed from the load side of the 200A breaker in the meter main. That's a pretty normal way to feed multiple building on an farm place/acreage. Just be aware that this is at tap and there are some rules that go along with that.

The feed to the garage looks old enough to be a legal 3 wire feed, but I would say the 3 wire feed is about the last thing you should be concerned about. That panel has a lot of other issues
A 3 wire feed should be treated like a service from a grounding point of view. Bond neutral to ground and pound some ground rods.

 

[MoparTrucks]

I am not exactly sure when this was done but I suspect it was before 2008 and again, we have no codes here so who knows.

Yes both panels are fed from the load side of the 200 amp breaker in the service disconnect and the disconnect is below the meter so when I shut that breaker off both panels go dead.

There are no parallel pathways of any kind other than through the service disconnect.

Sounds like you guys are confirming what I thought and the one electrician said as well. Treat this like a a separate main panel, make sure the neutral and ground are bonded in the panel and use a separate grounding rod for this panel.

I love my old farm but I am not sure I would want to tackle all this over again!

Thanks guys.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am not exactly sure when this was done but I suspect it was before 2008 and again, we have no codes here so who knows.

Yes both panels are fed from the load side of the 200 amp breaker in the service disconnect and the disconnect is below the meter so when I shut that breaker off both panels go dead.

There are no parallel pathways of any kind other than through the service disconnect.

Sounds like you guys are confirming what I thought and the one electrician said as well. Treat this like a a separate main panel, make sure the neutral and ground are bonded in the panel and use a separate grounding rod for this panel.

I love my old farm but I am not sure I would want to tackle all this over again!

Thanks guys.

yes!

the first electrician doesnt make sense because you only have a 3-wire feed and so you cant unbond the neutral.

 

[tyme2par4]

To be up to today's code, you would need a 4 wire feed to both panels. Because this is existing, you can fall back on the older code as Wylies mentioned. You just need to make sure you have a ground rod connected to each of the panels.

I'd also suggest you get some kind of busing to protect those wires coming into the panel. It looks like they are vulnerable from chaffing by both the block wall and the metal panel hole.

 

[MoparTrucks]

To be up to today's code, you would need a 4 wire feed to both panels. Because this is existing, you can fall back on the older code as Wylies mentioned. You just need to make sure you have a ground rod connected to each of the panels.

I'd also suggest you get some kind of busing to protect those wires coming into the panel. It looks like they are vulnerable from chaffing by both the block wall and the metal panel hole.

No code enforcement here in farmville but good point about the bushing. I have that plus the plugs for the open knockouts. When I say no code I mean other than federally mandated septic standards you can build a house out of soda cans anywhere on your property and it would be fine. We have no building permits or code enforcement in the entire county which is all zoned agricultural. That is good and bad believe me. I do try to stick to the NEC because for me its a safety issue.

This is my forever home but I want forever to be a ways down the road!