Tyvek Idea

[Dragster Racer]

I didn't want to dirty up the other thread. I have a 40X40X15 pole building, new. I am going to blow in the ceiling, and have now decided to go with R19 batts in the walls using bookshelving to hold them up. I would like to go with the spray foam, but since my labor is free, the cost difference ends up too great. I just can't afford it. I do like the foam's ability to cut air infiltration. I was wondering if I could put up tyvek before the insulation. It's a total pain now that the building is already up, but it is what it is now. I would go right over the poles in the interest of being air tight. Then insulation, vapor barrier and then osb. What do you think? See any trouble with doing this, and will it do what I am planning?

 

[IHI]

Lottsa troubles, your creating a mositure trap which will cut down on effectivness of your insualtion and long term breed mold making your garage a sick area in due time.

If your going to spend any amount of time out there, do yourself and your pocket book a favor and call a professional. If you cant afford the urethane have a company bid fiberglass blow in. They pack that stuff in there so tight, it's the next best thing to urethane spray foam. As of now, your setting yourself up for problems with moisture and that is'nt a good thing. Depending on your area, i think you will find you CANNOT buy the insualtion and do it yourself for what they get to pack the wall with the fiberglass insualtion.

This house we're working on now just got it down on both floors, and they seal every stud that has a wire of plumbing line peircing it, as well as sealing all electrical boxes where wires go through....i priced out batt for the owner, then called in the insulation company and their work done was cheaper than the batt itself.

 

[Dragster Racer]

Why a moisture problem? The way that I plan on using it is just like wrapping a house, only the siding is up, so I am retrofitting from the inside. The order of materials would be the same as normal. Siding, tyvek, insulation, vp, osb. Am I missing something?

 

[IHI]

So your putting tyvek over the poles first?? where are you going to bookshelf for the insulation?? Your putting the tyvek up backwards right? so the print side faces the outside of the building?? I guess i'm having a hardtime seeing why go through all this trouble, all this added expense with no benefit??? along with the fact of the VB being used, VB have'nt been used in construction for years since they trap moisture. I know the northern climates sometimes use them on ceilings, but if things are done correctly there's no need for a interior VB...man, it's honetly been at least 15years since i've seen one put up.

Anyhow, call a insulation contractor and just have him price the stuff i showed in the picture, long term your shop will be better off and your not spending your own money creating a mess.

 

[Dragster Racer]

Are you pro contractor? I'm Bucky on another board. Thought I recognized the car!
I'm not set on using the vapor barrier, but the wrap/tyvek would be like you said with the writing facing outward toward the siding. My thought was to cut down on the air infiltration. Isn't that what the tyvek is for? Not saying its a good idea, just an idea.

 

[IHI]

Are you pro contractor? I'm Bucky on another board. Thought I recognized the car!
I'm not set on using the vapor barrier, but the wrap/tyvek would be like you said with the writing facing outward toward the siding. My thought was to cut down on the air infiltration. Isn't that what the tyvek is for? Not saying its a good idea, just an idea.

Hey bucky, yeah it's me the part that has me nervious as i'm envisioning the wall set up like this so you may need to correct me, starting from exterior and working towards interior

Exterior steel pole builing siding
insulation complete with book shelf framing to hold it
tyvek installed backwards so writing is facing the outside of the buidling
then interior wall covering

I did'nt put in vapor barrier since it's not needed in this situation and will create more problems than cures. I'm afraid with the Tyvek on the interior your trapping all the warm/moiste air throughout the summer that will come between the exterior building siding and the tyvek which in turn will start to saturate the fiberglass batts with warm moist air throughout the summer months and then it'll want to freeze during the winter months to a certain extent depending on how much warm air warms the back side of the insualtion and the cold air penetrates the cold side of the wall. Tyvek was designed to go over exterior side of the wall as a air barrier first and foremost to help stop/cut down and air penetration into the walls but allow the inside of the walls to breath allowing moisture to escape to the exterior side. As well as (in vinyl siding apps) stop water from getting into/onto the exterior wall sheeting and begining the rot process. Here are a few pictures to show why Tyvek is used on the exterior side of typical woof stick frame construction, the builder of this place just put vinyl over the OSB directly...not good since vinyl siding is not water proof, it is designed to let water drain through it so it does'nt hold it

again, no tyvek was used when builder erected this house, so no flashing was possible since what are you going to flash against?

I know most of us are capable of performing many tasks around the house and most DIY's get caught up in thinking i can save a bunch of money doing it myself. In some cases this is exactly right, but in other cases once a guy really sits down and starts crunching numbers (like in this scenario) so they're able to do it themselves it will actually cost more and be less effeicent than hiring a pro to come in, and that's why i say it's worth calling in some unsulating contractors to at least get a price using the system i showed in the above links with the fiber mesh and blown in fiberglass...it gets packed in so tight, you can pull the fibermesh off and the wall cavities will still remained stuffed with insulation...like i said, the next best thing to spray foam.

But you add up all the lumber it's going to take to book shelf to accept batts, all the nails to attach bookshelfing, the time involved to do it (even though most argue their time is free i do not believe anybody's time is free since it's time taken away from doing something more productive/beneficial...heck, I hire out work on my house simply because $$ wise, i can pay to have things done and still make money above and beyond that doing my job elsewhere..sounds crazy, but in some cases it's true

Sorry for the long post, but in a nutshell, before you get to set on trying to insulate this building liek your describing, call an insulation contractor, I thought for years when i bid our jobs i could'nt afford to upcharge the bill to customers, and then once i brought one in on a job, we have'nt touched insualtion ever again, I cant buy the insulation for what i'm charged for them to do the complete job installed...seriously. And all the A-B results of before and after is HUGE!!! I know guys are tired of seeing these pictures but before this client used 2- 20' propane radiant heaters to heat this 18'x36' bay for working on his dumptrucks and heavy equipment. After we were done with it, the one heater is now shut off completely and the other turns on 2-3 times a day since just leaving the man door open from the other shop allows enough heat in this bay to keep it at the preset temperatures.

Bookshelfing installed:

I did'nt get any pictures of the place once the insulation contractor was finished, but it was done exactly like the house i showed in the above posts, stapled fibermesh over everything and then they fill the cavities with fiberglass blow in.

and then the steel we installed over everything

ceiling furred out to accept steel ceiling

completed

Not trying to spend another guys money which soo many like to do, just trying to help you get the best bang for your buck because you only want to do this once....and like i tell homeowners, the only people that can afford to be cheap is rich folks...they can afford to do it twice.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I apreciate the help. I will check on he blow in wall stuff. Seems like the insulation contractors around here just want to jump right to the foam. I have to put some bookshelving in anyhow to support the osb, so not sure that is extra cost.
I see that I wasn't clear about the location.
Normally, you would side over the tyvek. However, since I didn't think ahead, I want to put the tyvek against the back of the siding. The only difference is that the poles will be on the outside of the tyvek since I will have to go over them to complete the envelope. Then, inside the tyvek is insulation. Inside that is vp (maybe) and then the inside osb or steel.

 

[mpraddict]

I guess i'm having a hardtime seeing why go through all this trouble, all this added expense with no benefit??? along with the fact of the VB being used, VB have'nt been used in construction for years since they trap moisture. I know the northern climates sometimes use them on ceilings, but if things are done correctly there's no need for a interior VB...man, it's honetly been at least 15years since i've seen one put up.

Are you serious? In some climates the latex paint is adequate for a vapor retarder (vapor barrier is an incorrect term), but for most locations (other than far southeast) a VR is REQUIRED by most commercial building codes.

 

[IHI]

Are you serious? In some climates the latex paint is adequate for a vapor retarder (vapor barrier is an incorrect term), but for most locations (other than far southeast) a VR is REQUIRED by most commercial building codes.

So this pole building is now commercial use and must meet commercial code? Last i read it was a racers shop in the yard And no, i have'nt seen vapor barrier used for years in residential structures, at least here in my region and we're bound to IRC codes of '06 for county and IRC '08 for in town, so on and so forth dating back the years.

The only guys i know still using a vapor barrier of sorts are in the extremem northern climates middle minnesota and further north and they're only using it on the ceilings in those cases. It was found throughout many decomposed plates and studs that vapor barriers create more harm than good by trapping moisture. It may be different in commercial work since here steel is required for wall framing vs wood so they will just rust and decompose at a slower rate than wood will, so i would say give it time, like anything else time will tell the tale, but as it stands, no VB on walls in this area.

 

[BooUrns!]

Codes change from region to region depending on the temperature and humidity extremes that can be referenced in climatic data tables.

Vapour barrier is a standard part of the building envelope in my region/country as we have generally colder temperature extremes than any point in the continental US, alaska sharing our regional norms.
It may have been found that there is sufficient average humidity in your region to negate the benefits of VB and in some cases contribute to moisture buildup in the wall assembly.

Seeing as the interior is being clad with metal, I don't think I would use a VB either.

 

[Dragster Racer]

OK. Let's say that we forget the vapor barrier for the moment. I'm thinking OSB for the finish inside walls. Obiously the outside is metal siding. These buildings tends to get a lot of air infiltration, so I was thinking to counter this I would put tyvek or wrap against the metal siding. The perlins and poles will be on the outside of the wrap in this case since the siding is already up and this is an afterthought. Would this be helpful in cutting air infiltration since this is what tyvek is intended for? Any problems using on a metal siding building or trapping the pole and perlins on the outside of the wrap? We can start another thread about vp's if we need to.

 

[mpraddict]

I never said the pole building was a commercial structure, but typically commercial codes are more strict than residential. I have designed buildings in almost all 50 states, and other than the far southeast, VRs are standard. Residential gets away with a lot that isn't necessarily best practice, and by the way a lot of commercial building are wood stud construction.
Back to the Tyvek question. Given how metal siding will be more prone to sweating, I would do everything possible to keep the bat insulation away from it. Putting Tyvek between the bats and the siding isn't such a bad idea. The only probem you might have is if water does get behind the siding and the tyvek is sealed down (to create your air barrier), the water may have no place to go (assuming it can't get back out at the base of the siding). Certainly isn't a recommended practice that I'm aware of, but it could work.

 

[IHI]

Bucky, is there any way you could get a quote for urethane foam at just the cavity edges to stop air from coming into the cavity space you intend to fill with batt? stopping the air infiltration is 80% of your battle. i'm sure the bid will be well worth it in the long to just spray the inside corners of every cavity vs trying to spray it 1-2" thick throughout. A freind of mine just had his 30x40x14 pole building sprayed with 2" closed cell, all the walls floor to roof, and then we had them spray the underside of the roofing as well 2". As of now that is the ONLY insulation in the entire shop. he has 2- 10'x12' OHD only, no windows, and then a 36" man door into the attached garage with a wood burner. This past winter, in the peak of the cold with highs in the -*F we had a wild game cookout over there, the only heat for the big shop was what came through the man door from the wood burner and it was a constant 64* in there.

Now that is only an R14 with the 2" closed cell, but that's what i'm getting at, he has zero air transfer so it maintains core temps once they're established unless an OHD is opened up. So add up the hundreds of dollars it will take in tyvek rolls to wrap everything on the inside which is "better than nothing" but still an awful lot of work to try and get it all sealed up properly and the end result will be negligable at best to see if it truely works like one hopes. Then add in all the boxes of 4-6mil vapor barrier which i still would'nt recommend and the labor/materials it will take to install that after the fact when you could possibly get a fair price to just squirt the inside corners of the wall cavities to stop air transfer 100% and your done. insulate as you see fit.

I'm more concerned with the fact that unless the Tyvek gets installed to prevent without a doubt, air infiltration, any air allowed into the cavity will still condensate during the winter time inside the wall once it reaches the vapor barrier which will be warm due to heat transfer through the steel siding, or even OSB siding on the inside of the walls, so the cold air migrating through will have no choice than to condensate..just how it is. and since it's trapped int the cavity it wont just "evaporate" like it would if it was exposed to the atmosphere, it will stay trapped in the fiberglass batt, and eventually degrade the insulation performance and eventually start to produce mold.

 

[BooUrns!]

It will be quite a lot of work to string strips of Tyvek into your walls and effectively seal them against the frame. If you miss a spot and water does get behind it into the insulation, it will eventually evaporate and pass through the tyvek membrane. Tyvek will trap water but allows water vapour to pass.

 

[Dragster Racer]

It will be quite a lot of work to string strips of Tyvek into your walls and effectively seal them against the frame. If you miss a spot and water does get behind it into the insulation, it will eventually evaporate and pass through the tyvek membrane. Tyvek will trap water but allows water vapour to pass.

That is my understanding of how it works too. Plus, the moist air would not condense on the warm vb. Moisture condenses when it meets a cooler surface compared to the air it is residing in. I agree with both of you that it would be a trick, and have some expense to do it properly. Not a lot harder than doing it outside, but a little.

I like the idea of foaming the corners and cracks. I wonder if one of those guys would do that. Seems like the ones around here just want to make the big bucks. Of course, the guy that visited my shop 5 weeks ago still hasn't given me a quote of any sort.

 

[IHI]

The missed quotes are just part of the business, plain and simple. Some guys are just hacks, some guys are just too busy, many have a good gut based on experience that will sometimes bite them in the azz but most of the time proves true, at least that my expereince with looking at a job and blowing people off.

I know i should'nt say that in a public forum, but i'm just being brutally honest. Not to degrade the topic, but like you mentioned, you've had some of the guys come out, seen the prices and was turned off, i imagine one of the guys picked up on that, i know i have at times. but it's just the nature of the business, it's hard to vest much time into a bid when you stomach says it probably wont happen anyways, esspecially since most folks are looking for the cheapest price with no concept or care of quality. There are select consumers who know it's often better to pay more now for long term happiness, but in over 20yrs doing this, i can count on both hands the number of clients we've worked with that think that way out of the thousands we've worked for.

But it is completely worth your while to call some of the guys back and ask them about doing this, and contact a few more about it as well, and just know you will not hear back from all of them, but there is probably somebody out there willing to tackle a job like this, just realize the set up and clean up for these machines is a big deal so there is expense your paying for that is seperate of just spraying your walls.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I think that is worth looking into. Thanks!

 

[zeebad1]

Ben, you're beatin' yourself up here.

I looked long & hard at the same situation, and finally just bit the bullet.

I don't mind doing some work myself, (cheap labor) but if I'm still not satisfied with the results, it was all wasted time.

I know that whatever I would have done in my building will never be as good as the guys did last week.

I keep telling myself that insulation costs. The difference is whether you have it, or not.

It's easy for me to make suggestions, but knowing how fussy you are, I'm afraid you'll always be thinking "what if?"

Best of luck, Gary.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I think you are right on Gary. However, there is just no way I can do the foam on the entire building. Just not in the budget. So, I have to compromise. If the compromise means extra work, so be it. I'm just trying to keep it from meaning not as good of a final product. You know, silk purse from sow's ear.

 

[IHI]

You know, silk purse from sow's ear.

now why'd you have to bring that up

I'm sitting here laughing because i spent 3 weeks designing and building "impossible stair cases" in an old house we have gutted, I called in 12 other contractor friends, to get ideas and kept hearing, "it's impossible, cant be done, your screwed, run, what'd you get yourself into" so then i called the inspector over a few days later after more math than i care to remember trying to come up with a solution to meet code, and the old boy pulls out his tape, listens to me, makes suggestions until i tell him that runs into this, and then that runs into this, and i heard the "your try'n to make a purse from a sow's ear" AT LEAST 18 times from this guy that day

I get'r done so the story has a happy ending that tickled the HO's, suprised the inspector, and is as close to code as one could get without adding on 6' to the front of the house tom make exact code possible.....fricken sow's ear URRRGGHHHH

 

[Dragster Racer]

LOL. Glad I could help. Wait, you work for HO's? Hope they pay well!

 

[IHI]

LOL. Glad I could help. Wait, you work for HO's? Hope they pay well!

Not well enough sometimes LOL, and some would rather screw me than pay me I've paid off enough bad debt from deadbeats over the past 8 years alone i could've paid off my mortguage

 

[Dragster Racer]

You know, I have never had much of a problem with that in my business until lately. Seems like I have the debt collection service number memorized now. I understand being behind on your bills. We get that way in our business sometimes. But at least make some sort of effort! Show me that you are trying, and you will get a very long leash with me.

 

[IHI]

You know, I have never had much of a problem with that in my business until lately. Seems like I have the debt collection service number memorized now. I understand being behind on your bills. We get that way in our business sometimes. But at least make some sort of effort! Show me that you are trying, and you will get a very long leash with me.

With ours it's never this single customer owes me $10K, $15K, it's the hundreds we service that owe $400 here, $500 there, $1000 over there, so once you start adding up all the accounts recievable, it does'nt take long for it to get ridiculous. 2 years ago i we were screwed out of $28K, last year was $17K...and all were little amounts here and there...but i'm still the guy paying my vendors when the bills come, paying the subs, etc...so i'm the lst straw as you know as well. I remember one job i measured for some replacement windows, anything under $5K i used to never get money down since it's such a small amount, well i called to schedule the install, she tells me she does'nt have the money, and that "Christmas just came out of nowhere"

So what do i do, sit on custom made windows for her house i'll never use, or install them and work out payments. So the day we showed upto work, what do i see inside the door...9 brand new pairs of Air Jordan shoes We got it worked out with a payment plan but that's not the point. i've had to resort to taking items in trade of payments in the past too. So anymore, i front load contracts pretty heavy, and often with GOOD clients explain my reasoning and they understand once i explain, but now i get all material up front, and i get 30% labor in that inital downpay as well...if they dont want those terms, i walk....like i said, i've eaten more than my fair share from deadeats and i'm done with it, i can sit at home and do nothign to go broke, why would i want to work on somebody else's project to go belly up instead??

 

[Dragster Racer]

OK. I said I wasn't touching the vp thing, but I had better. If I have the foam to seal up all the cracks, then might I have a moisture problem because it cannot escape now that I made the cavity air tight? My plan was to have a vp on the inside as normal. I see some of those do it yourself foam kits are somewhat reasonable if you are just doing cracks.