I was given several rolls of 15lb tarred roofing paper. I am toying with the idea of using it instead of tyvek under my siding on my shop, but am concerned with the lack of vapor permeability. The shop will be mostly ambiant temperature unless I have a project, at which point I'll turn on the heater in winter or the ac in summer. Is it worth the $100 for a roll of tyvek for peace of mind?
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tyvek vs. roofing paper
- Thread starter Choirboy
- Start date
pattenp
Well-known member
Tyvek is made just for that purpose. Tar paper used on walls for moisture protection is 1940's technology. The oils in tar paper dry out over time, use Tyvek.
you're gonna trap moisture
think about it:
tar paper|cold fiberglass|vapor barrier
when you heat your shop any heat will make the trapped water vapor condense in your fiber glass.... normally it would migrate out the non-vapor barrier side
think about it:
tar paper|cold fiberglass|vapor barrier
when you heat your shop any heat will make the trapped water vapor condense in your fiber glass.... normally it would migrate out the non-vapor barrier side
creativecars
Well-known member
I did a fair amount of research when I built my extension and built my shop.
Have you ever seen what tyvek looks like after being outside for 2 months, about the same a tar paper, holes and all. Not impressed with that kind of modern technology. IIRC it was the University of Iowa who was did the research, and the bottom line was properly installed tar paper was just as effective as tyvek.
The problem is most contractors want fast and idiot proof so they go with tyvek and hope nobody really cares.
I went with tar paper.
Have you ever seen what tyvek looks like after being outside for 2 months, about the same a tar paper, holes and all. Not impressed with that kind of modern technology. IIRC it was the University of Iowa who was did the research, and the bottom line was properly installed tar paper was just as effective as tyvek.
The problem is most contractors want fast and idiot proof so they go with tyvek and hope nobody really cares.
I went with tar paper.
Are you concerned with having two vapor barriers on your wall? I had considered rosin paper because it lasts forever but it isn't waterproof the way tyvek claims to be.
PS I like your location, creativecars; I live 30 miles from the largest Amish settlement west of the Mississippi, I see a lot of horses and buggies!
PS I like your location, creativecars; I live 30 miles from the largest Amish settlement west of the Mississippi, I see a lot of horses and buggies!
I did a fair amount of research when I built my extension and built my shop.
Have you ever seen what tyvek looks like after being outside for 2 months, about the same a tar paper, holes and all. Not impressed with that kind of modern technology. IIRC it was the University of Iowa who was did the research, and the bottom line was properly installed tar paper was just as effective as tyvek.
The problem is most contractors want fast and idiot proof so they go with tyvek and hope nobody really cares.
I went with tar paper.
Tyvek isn't meant to be exposed to the sun for more than 120 days, ideally much less than that.
Tyvek is meant to be an air barrier in addition to being a moisture barrier, but it is still vapor permeable. Tar paper is not a good air barrier since you'll have a lot of horizontal joints. Tyvek is wide enough to cover the entire wall height in one pass.
creativecars
Well-known member
Tyvek isn't meant to be exposed to the sun for more than 120 days, ideally much less than that.
Tyvek is meant to be an air barrier in addition to being a moisture barrier, but it is still vapor permeable. Tar paper is not a good air barrier since you'll have a lot of horizontal joints. Tyvek is wide enough to cover the entire wall height in one pass.
Tyvek sounds good on paper and in controlled conditions, but on my project wasn't much of a barrier after 30 days. The tar paper does a better job sealing around nail holes from putting up the exterior siding than tyvek does. The tyvek just wants to tear around nail holes as it moves.
With 4" overlap of tar paper, especially when installed snug and flat and under the siding will have minimal air movement, but enough to breath like it needs to.
Most people don't tear into their building to confirm Tyvek is doing the job they claim it does...
readhead
Well-known member
I have been using felt for years with no problems. Much easier to install by yourself. Most manufactures suggest two layers for sidewall installations. Much easier to flash windows and doors.
A few years ago one of the trade magazines did a comparision test of Tyvek type products and felt. The felt won hands down as a moisture barrier. Tyvek can cause problems in high hummidy climates with wood siding. The siding needs to be sealed on all 6 sides to prevent sucking up moisture from inside the building.
A few years ago one of the trade magazines did a comparision test of Tyvek type products and felt. The felt won hands down as a moisture barrier. Tyvek can cause problems in high hummidy climates with wood siding. The siding needs to be sealed on all 6 sides to prevent sucking up moisture from inside the building.
several rolls of 15lb paper isn't worth much. that said, i wouldn't hesitate to use it if it were available. the tried & true tar paper has certainly proven itself, but no one uses it anymore for new construction, it's all tyvek & typar for house-wrap.
bczygan
Well-known member
House wrap. Use the right tape and nails with plastic washers.
Rookie2
Well-known member
You can't use nails if you use metal siding ! I used a hammer stapler with tyvek and metal siding and still created bumps at the staples that weren't hammered in correctly .
I suggest that you do some googling on building science, vapor barriers, more importantly air barriers, and make sure you are reading about your climate when doing so. Someone suggested you do not want to trap moisture between and two vapors barriers and this is absolutely correct. Also, I think people are confusing the historical use of kraft paper on walls in lieu of typar/tyvek with tar paper. Kraft and tar paper are different and need to be used differently. Tar paper on a wall in my opinion would get an instant no because it doesn't stand up that well to folding over corners and tends to tear and primary purpose of the WRB (weather resistive barrier is now the official name for house wrap) is to shed bulk water by being part of a flashing scheme around doors and windows which I just don't think would work very well with tar paper. Things have changed a lot in the past 5-10 years as building science has progressed. Do you know that most likely you do not want an interior vapor barrier in most climates in the US? The point of my original suggestion is so that you can understand what the consequences are of any decision you make.
Falcon67
Well-known member
My grandfather used tar paper on his shops, works for me. I just put one row on the current shop and around the windows.
Wow, didn't realize this would be such a contested issue!
JCByrd24, I am pretty familiar with building technology concepts but since I'm not a contractor I'm sure my info is outdated, especially with the comment that a lot has changed in the last 10 years. It was me that raised the concern over two vapor barriers, that was why I started this thread. It was also me that suggested a distinction between felt paper (tar paper) and rosin paper.
I do agree with those that say tar paper holds up well; most of my carpentry has been with old buildings and I know for a fact that you can tear off the roof or siding of a 100 year old building and the paper will look nearly new, albeit more brittle. That is what attracted me to using the felt paper I have. I am almost 30 and don't plan on moving out of this house until I'm 80; I make all my materials decisions based on that idea. Plus, tyvek is a bit pricey and if the felt paper I already have would work as well as the tyvek I dont...
Was not aware that most climates should not have vapor barriers; is that because cold from interior AC causes as much/more damage with condensation on your inner vapor barrier as outside cold during the winter would cause on an exterior vapor barrier? (that last sentence is awkward and if I need to explain it better I will) The shop will only be intermittently heated/cooled as needed for various projects. Iowa gets pretty humid in the summers; perhaps it would be better to think about the AC condensate problem as being greater than the heat condensate problem?
JCByrd24, I am pretty familiar with building technology concepts but since I'm not a contractor I'm sure my info is outdated, especially with the comment that a lot has changed in the last 10 years. It was me that raised the concern over two vapor barriers, that was why I started this thread. It was also me that suggested a distinction between felt paper (tar paper) and rosin paper.
I do agree with those that say tar paper holds up well; most of my carpentry has been with old buildings and I know for a fact that you can tear off the roof or siding of a 100 year old building and the paper will look nearly new, albeit more brittle. That is what attracted me to using the felt paper I have. I am almost 30 and don't plan on moving out of this house until I'm 80; I make all my materials decisions based on that idea. Plus, tyvek is a bit pricey and if the felt paper I already have would work as well as the tyvek I dont...
Was not aware that most climates should not have vapor barriers; is that because cold from interior AC causes as much/more damage with condensation on your inner vapor barrier as outside cold during the winter would cause on an exterior vapor barrier? (that last sentence is awkward and if I need to explain it better I will) The shop will only be intermittently heated/cooled as needed for various projects. Iowa gets pretty humid in the summers; perhaps it would be better to think about the AC condensate problem as being greater than the heat condensate problem?
I will do my best to shed some light but there is much better reading to be done than my explanation. The single most important answer for not having double vapor barrier is the wall assembly needs to be able to dry one direction at least. You cannot build a perfect wall assembly so moisture in it is inevitable. Studies have shown that moisture drive even in cool climates (heating dominated) is worse from the outside in during the summer than the inside out during winter. This is true here in the NE where we have cold but mostly dry winters and sorta hot but sometimes real humid summers. This is the result of...or maybe just compounded by some building techniques that have become very prevalent. 1. OSB/ZIP is not very vapor permeable and cannot dry the wall cavity very well to the outside (it itself may dry ok under some sidings). 2. Latex paint on sheetrock is enough vapor resistant to stop bulk moisture from passing from the wall to the cavity in the winter, but is permeable enough to dry some if there is not plastic right next to it. Now if you have a swimming pool in your house or live in AZ things change some. Also, I have not touched much on air sealing. Of any thing learned over the past few years, it is that air sealing is paramount. Nothing will lead to moisture issues, mold, rot, etc faster than a leaky house with cool air and one side and warm on the other and unintended air paths in between. These will carry harmless vapor into walls where it will condense. Since this is impossible to eliminate, all the more reason to design the wall to dry.
willymakeit
Well-known member
Tyvek is an air barrier but will allow moisture transfer. Ive dealt with a lot of subs who try to use it for temp. caps on walls to find out it will leak.
Everyone is using this because of the Leeds and green codes or mandates. We are basically building a thermos bottle to live in. I still don't agree with this when the building is built tight and you have to bring in extra combustion air, and transfer fans for so many air changes. Seems self defeating. Doesn't mean I don't like technology but a little common sense helps to.
Ive worked on a lot of historical homes and the tar/felt was doing its job.
Everyone is using this because of the Leeds and green codes or mandates. We are basically building a thermos bottle to live in. I still don't agree with this when the building is built tight and you have to bring in extra combustion air, and transfer fans for so many air changes. Seems self defeating. Doesn't mean I don't like technology but a little common sense helps to.
Ive worked on a lot of historical homes and the tar/felt was doing its job.
Tar Paper is not a vapor barrier. In some ways it is better than Tyvek (and the like). When it is dry it has a relatively low vapor permeability, this helps stop solar driven vapor drive. Solar driven vapor drive can be a problem with reservoir claddings like brick, stone, or stucco. However when it is wet it allows vapor through. It will likely have a similar moisture content as the sheathing it is attached to, so if that wood is wet it will allow the wood to dry. BTW even dry it has a higher vapor permeability than the sheathing.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/all-about-water-resistive-barriers
However tar paper cannot be taped so it is ineffective as an air barrier. I wouldn't worry too much about the wall's air tightness (the ceiling plane I would worry about however) since you aren't conditioning the space 24/7, also standard construction done well provides a decent air barrier anyway. Your biggest load is the initial cool down (or warm up) instead of the maintenance of temperature, making air leakage a lesser concern. If you do want to condition the space 24/7 then there are other ways to ensure a good air barrier, such as priming and taping the sheathing joints.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/all-about-water-resistive-barriers
However tar paper cannot be taped so it is ineffective as an air barrier. I wouldn't worry too much about the wall's air tightness (the ceiling plane I would worry about however) since you aren't conditioning the space 24/7, also standard construction done well provides a decent air barrier anyway. Your biggest load is the initial cool down (or warm up) instead of the maintenance of temperature, making air leakage a lesser concern. If you do want to condition the space 24/7 then there are other ways to ensure a good air barrier, such as priming and taping the sheathing joints.
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Tyvek is made just for that purpose. Tar paper used on walls for moisture protection is 1940's technology. The oils in tar paper dry out over time, use Tyvek.
you could not be more wrong.
here in the outer banks builders went to typar/tyvek years ago.
within 10 years siding was coming back off and entire sides of houses were rotted.
all the high end builders never switched,
their homes were holding up perfectly,as a matter of fact, oceanfront homes from the 40's and 50's were still in great condition when siding came off for renovations.
most decent builders here have switched back to the #15 or #30 roofers felt.
just because something is new does NOT mean it is better.
now that being said, you should not use it under vinyl siding... the petroleum ll bleed through the siding
Have you ever seen what tyvek looks like after being outside for 2 months, .
It's not meant to be exposed to the sun for long. But that said, the tyvek on my old mans shed on the shade sides looks just as good as new and it's been exposed for 10 years, and was installed 15 years ago. (They took that siding to replace some on the front of the garage that was damaged, and never ended up replacing yet)
My grandfather used tar paper on his shops, works for me. I just put one row on the current shop and around the windows.
My grandfather used knob and tube with sawdust and asbestos insulation, that was 60 some years ago and it's still doing great.
But no one would ever do that in new construction. I don't know what your point is.
you could not be more wrong.
here in the outer banks builders went to typar/tyvek years ago.
within 10 years siding was coming back off and entire sides of houses were rotted.
all the high end builders never switched,
their homes were holding up perfectly,as a matter of fact, oceanfront homes from the 40's and 50's were still in great condition when siding came off for renovations.
most decent builders here have switched back to the #15 or #30 roofers felt.
just because something is new does NOT mean it is better.
now that being said, you should not use it under vinyl siding... the petroleum ll bleed through the siding
You can't compare the high end builders to the fly by night builders. I'd put money on the issue being instalation corner cutting and not the material.
There are tyvek products for all sorts of uses and climates, pick the correct one.
pattenp
Well-known member
How is what I said wrong? Tyvek is made as an air barrier and tar paper is old building technology. I didn't say one was better or worst in every case. So your interpretation of my statement couldn't be more wrong.
QUOTE=yardpro;4174435]you could not be more wrong.
here in the outer banks builders went to typar/tyvek years ago.
within 10 years siding was coming back off and entire sides of houses were rotted.
all the high end builders never switched,
their homes were holding up perfectly,as a matter of fact, oceanfront homes from the 40's and 50's were still in great condition when siding came off for renovations.
most decent builders here have switched back to the #15 or #30 roofers felt.
just because something is new does NOT mean it is better.
now that being said, you should not use it under vinyl siding... the petroleum ll bleed through the siding[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=yardpro;4174435]you could not be more wrong.
here in the outer banks builders went to typar/tyvek years ago.
within 10 years siding was coming back off and entire sides of houses were rotted.
all the high end builders never switched,
their homes were holding up perfectly,as a matter of fact, oceanfront homes from the 40's and 50's were still in great condition when siding came off for renovations.
most decent builders here have switched back to the #15 or #30 roofers felt.
just because something is new does NOT mean it is better.
now that being said, you should not use it under vinyl siding... the petroleum ll bleed through the siding[/QUOTE]
Just Primer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2013
- Messages
- 64
Most of the time the "new technology" proves to be a new scam. Take a look at the Exterior drywall that China threw at us a about 10 or 15 years ago. It was used under stucco and it was junk. I don't know to much about tyvek but just saw it for the first time under stucco yesterday and it appears to me to be nothing more than a type of plastic tarp. A garbage bag is probably the same. I don't think oil off gasses very easy out of tar paper. When I worked in a lab my chemist told me that oil would not off gas in any real quantity. I put some Hydraulic oil in the fume hood and left it on all weekend and it weighed the same on Monday.
JoeFin
Well-known member
I started out working on house repairs and remodeling when I was 16 yrs old - some 40 yrs ago.
The quality of home construction materials and methods has been in a state of steady decline the entire 40 yrs and I don't care what new type of counter top you have.
My kid wanted me to go with Tyvek when I had him reside my home 2 yrs ago,but I felt better going with 30lb felt over lapped 12". Now some one may pull up a study funded by the company that makes Tyvek that says I'm full of it - but I don't care - I'll sleep better at night knowing I have 30lb felt instead of tyvek
The quality of home construction materials and methods has been in a state of steady decline the entire 40 yrs and I don't care what new type of counter top you have.
My kid wanted me to go with Tyvek when I had him reside my home 2 yrs ago,but I felt better going with 30lb felt over lapped 12". Now some one may pull up a study funded by the company that makes Tyvek that says I'm full of it - but I don't care - I'll sleep better at night knowing I have 30lb felt instead of tyvek
creativecars
Well-known member
It's not meant to be exposed to the sun for long. But that said, the tyvek on my old mans shed on the shade sides looks just as good as new and it's been exposed for 10 years, and was installed 15 years ago. (They took that siding to replace some on the front of the garage that was damaged, and never ended up replacing yet)
That's funny because their info says it can be exposed for 9 months, I say BS. I have seen what it becomes after 2months.
As far as 10 years exposed...
My grandfather used knob and tube with sawdust and asbestos insulation, that was 60 some years ago and it's still doing great.
But no one would ever do that in new construction. I don't know what your point is.
The point is new is not always better. Its just the easy way out.
You can't compare the high end builders to the fly by night builders. I'd put money on the issue being instalation corner cutting and not the material.
There are tyvek products for all sorts of uses and climates, pick the correct one.
I picked the best one for me... tar paper.
1grnlwn
Well-known member
If you are not heating or cooling it why use anything at all?
RECox286
Well-known member
I wouldn't have Tyvek on MY house if you paid
me to have it. 30# felt for the barrier and roof
valley flashing for corners, valleys, window and
door openings, and where ever I think it needs
to be. Yes, I'm old school, but I've seen the
problems from using Tyvek, here at the Jersey
Shore, in only the 'short' time it has been in use.
Let the flaming begin, I've got thick skin...
Uncle Bob
me to have it. 30# felt for the barrier and roof
valley flashing for corners, valleys, window and
door openings, and where ever I think it needs
to be. Yes, I'm old school, but I've seen the
problems from using Tyvek, here at the Jersey
Shore, in only the 'short' time it has been in use.
Let the flaming begin, I've got thick skin...
Uncle Bob
creativecars
Well-known member
I wouldn't have Tyvek on MY house if you paid
me to have it. 30# felt for the barrier and roof
valley flashing for corners, valleys, window and
door openings, and where ever I think it needs
to be. Yes, I'm old school, but I've seen the
problems from using Tyvek, here at the Jersey
Shore, in only the 'short' time it has been in use.
Let the flaming begin, I've got thick skin...
Uncle Bob
No flaming here... I heard their BS about it for years and gave it a shot during my remodel. When I pulled back the siding to change out a window (wife changed her mind) you could see the separation in the material. The tar paper on the other side that was 10 years older was faded and stiff, but would still repel water and slow down wind movement. No more tyvek for me. New technology is great... when it works...
1grnlwn: I will be heating and cooling, but on an as needed basis instead of on a constant basis. I felt I needed something as a water barrier in case any made its way past my siding. I'm less concerned about an air barrier because it will have a garage door attempting to seal along an uneven concrete floor; it won't matter how well I seal up the walls, I'll still lose most of my air through the front door!
I'm a little sorry I started this thread, it was an innocent question, I promise! But it has been extremely enlightening, so thank you for the divergent answers!
I'm a little sorry I started this thread, it was an innocent question, I promise! But it has been extremely enlightening, so thank you for the divergent answers!
Specialist Cathy
New member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 1
Cathy from DuPont here. I'd like to provide some additional information on the difference between building papers and Tyvek(R) water-resistive membranes (WRBs).
Wall cavities can become wet from anything from roof leaks to wind-driven rain or condensation, so it's important that the WRB allows the wall to dry out to avoid mold or other moisture-related damage. In addition to moisture, the WRB should also prevent air infiltration which can lower the effective R-value of the insulation.
Tyvek(R) WRBs are made from a tough material that cannot be easily torn, with a structure that creates microscopic pores that resist bulk water and air penetration while allowing moisture vapor molecules to pass through. Tyvek® doesn't absorb water and helps control air leakage for improved energy efficiency. It also helps manage bulk water intrusion to keep walls dry, yet is breathable so any moisture that does get into the wall can escape.
Building paper is not an air retarder. It can absorb water, lose wet strength and can experience degradation with continual exposure to moisture. Tyvek(R) WRBs are durable, more permeable and promote moisture vapor transfer to help avoid damage caused by mold, mildew and rot.
UV exposure limitation is also critical because siding or cladding is frequently installed several days, or even weeks, after installation of the WRB. Tyvek(R) WRBs provide a minimum of 120 days of UV resistance while building paper must be covered immediately as it will break down after UV exposure.
I hope this is helpful!
Wall cavities can become wet from anything from roof leaks to wind-driven rain or condensation, so it's important that the WRB allows the wall to dry out to avoid mold or other moisture-related damage. In addition to moisture, the WRB should also prevent air infiltration which can lower the effective R-value of the insulation.
Tyvek(R) WRBs are made from a tough material that cannot be easily torn, with a structure that creates microscopic pores that resist bulk water and air penetration while allowing moisture vapor molecules to pass through. Tyvek® doesn't absorb water and helps control air leakage for improved energy efficiency. It also helps manage bulk water intrusion to keep walls dry, yet is breathable so any moisture that does get into the wall can escape.
Building paper is not an air retarder. It can absorb water, lose wet strength and can experience degradation with continual exposure to moisture. Tyvek(R) WRBs are durable, more permeable and promote moisture vapor transfer to help avoid damage caused by mold, mildew and rot.
UV exposure limitation is also critical because siding or cladding is frequently installed several days, or even weeks, after installation of the WRB. Tyvek(R) WRBs provide a minimum of 120 days of UV resistance while building paper must be covered immediately as it will break down after UV exposure.
I hope this is helpful!
tcianci
Well-known member
I have been following this thread with great interest. I recall a few years back when I posted my personal experience with Tyvek specifically, not other WRB's. As a remodeler, I will just state again that I would never put Tyvek on ANYTHING again. DuPont hit a home run with this product with respect to being able to cover large sections of sheathing in a big hurry, and it's ability to resist wind tear off. Its great for the contractor, and BAD for the house. The vapor permeability is it's downfall. Someone at DuPont decided that vapor originates inside a building and nowhere else. The truth about Tyvek is that it lets water vapor through and that vapor is absorbed by the sheathing and the sheathing ROTS, and ROTS and ROTs. I've replaced untold amounts of plywood and OSB sheathing because of Tyvek. I have seen it over and over again, the Tyvek looks fine, the sheathing under it is literally destroyed and the insulation and wallboard are perfectly intact. That moisture ain't coming from the inside of the building!
Conversely, I have opened up countless buildings over the last 40 years that were properly protected with felt. The condition of the building under the felt is often perfect with the exception of areas where the felt has been physically damaged or some other sort of flashing failure that routes water behind the felt.
It's perfectly understandable to see a product introduced by a large corporation, with a history of useful high quality products, and assume that the manufacturer has done his homework. In the case of Tyvek, nothing could be further from the truth.
Conversely, I have opened up countless buildings over the last 40 years that were properly protected with felt. The condition of the building under the felt is often perfect with the exception of areas where the felt has been physically damaged or some other sort of flashing failure that routes water behind the felt.
It's perfectly understandable to see a product introduced by a large corporation, with a history of useful high quality products, and assume that the manufacturer has done his homework. In the case of Tyvek, nothing could be further from the truth.
Zeke
Well-known member
Tyvek isn't meant to be exposed to the sun for more than 120 days, ideally much less than that.
Tyvek is meant to be an air barrier in addition to being a moisture barrier, but it is still vapor permeable. Tar paper is not a good air barrier since you'll have a lot of horizontal joints. Tyvek is wide enough to cover the entire wall height in one pass.
And those horizontal laps are what can let moisture out but keep water out altogether. I'm not saying house wrap is better or worse. Out here we use the kraft paper some but under organic siding we use 15 lb. paper. We are required to use 2 layers which is difficult.
Tyvek(R) WRBs are made from a tough material that cannot be easily torn, with a structure that creates microscopic pores that resist bulk water and air penetration while allowing moisture vapor molecules to pass through. Tyvek® doesn't absorb water and helps control air leakage for improved energy efficiency. It also helps manage bulk water intrusion to keep walls dry, yet is breathable so any moisture that does get into the wall can escape.
Building paper is not an air retarder. It can absorb water, lose wet strength and can experience degradation with continual exposure to moisture. Tyvek(R) WRBs are durable, more permeable and promote moisture vapor transfer to help avoid damage caused by mold, mildew and rot.
UV exposure limitation is also critical because siding or cladding is frequently installed several days, or even weeks, after installation of the WRB. Tyvek(R) WRBs provide a minimum of 120 days of UV resistance while building paper must be covered immediately as it will break down after UV exposure.
I hope this is helpful!
good to know! my house (& most new residential & commercial buildings i see) was wrapped in tyvek. i also see typar & haven't seen tar paper used in a LONG time. i can attest to it's durability. it looks and feels like paper, but very tough to rip. i had a few spots where it was exposed in the garage & thought i could just tear it off, but had to use a blade.
i'd use it again.
readhead
Well-known member
Zeke touched on an important point that I assumed everyone would know. You should do two layers of felt. It sounds like a lot of work but it is still easier to do by yourself.