U.S.A. made vs German made
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TigerDude
Well-known member
I buy brands I like, not Coutries of Origin. So I like Wera, Wiha, PB Swiss, Knipex, and also KTC, Nepros & Koken. That said, expect Euro tools (and US ones, too) to suddenly get more expensive. I'll get an oddball US tool if I need it and its available, like Proto, SK, etc. US made is not a sign of quality any more, though cost tends to be. Some euro brands are Snap-on expensive.
German tools have a certain cool factor, especially if you have German cars. I have always found them to look and feel a bit more industrial than the highly finished, chromed tools like Snap On. They sometimes have satin finishes and are sometimes physically larger, clunkier, tho not always. Their open end wrenches tend to be thin, but their box wrenches are a bit more,....boxy. German and French screwdriver handles are often adpatations of centuries old handle shapes, which has a certain cool factor.
Snap On tools absolutely feel a certain way. But their tools are by no means typical of all US made tools. I was recently using my old Craftsman tools and they just don't inspire me with confidence the way Snap On tools do. I'm just waiting for my craftsman ratchet to reverse on me when I'm hanging on it. My raised panel open ends are almost unusable.
I don't own any Japanese automotove tools. Plenty of Mitutoyo though. Their stuff feels a little meh to me. I don't love Japanese cars. I don't like the feel of the pedals, switches, how I don't fit in the seats. But I suspect Koken is different. I suspect Nepros is different. So maybe not easy to generalize about COO. Hard enough to generalize about brands.
The great thing is, we live in a golden age of tools, where manufacturing processes that were previously reserved for aerospace are now common enough and cheap enough to use for consumer hand tools. Where imported tools, including and especially Japan and Taiwan, used to be complete turds, you can now find really high quality stuff.
So the choice has really never been harder. If you think of it that way, you can really understand why there's so much passion and disagreement here regarding tool choice. I think the question really is, how do you go wrong?
Snap On tools absolutely feel a certain way. But their tools are by no means typical of all US made tools. I was recently using my old Craftsman tools and they just don't inspire me with confidence the way Snap On tools do. I'm just waiting for my craftsman ratchet to reverse on me when I'm hanging on it. My raised panel open ends are almost unusable.
I don't own any Japanese automotove tools. Plenty of Mitutoyo though. Their stuff feels a little meh to me. I don't love Japanese cars. I don't like the feel of the pedals, switches, how I don't fit in the seats. But I suspect Koken is different. I suspect Nepros is different. So maybe not easy to generalize about COO. Hard enough to generalize about brands.
The great thing is, we live in a golden age of tools, where manufacturing processes that were previously reserved for aerospace are now common enough and cheap enough to use for consumer hand tools. Where imported tools, including and especially Japan and Taiwan, used to be complete turds, you can now find really high quality stuff.
So the choice has really never been harder. If you think of it that way, you can really understand why there's so much passion and disagreement here regarding tool choice. I think the question really is, how do you go wrong?
I don't believe the tariffs will stick, not at these tax rates.
At this point, most tool buys are not a necessity for me, I won't pay high prices. I will spend my money elsewhere, or invest it.
rancherbill
Well-known member
Snap On. grey etc. Yes Snap-On used to make tools in Canada, both brand name and house brands.
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richfinn
Well-known member
I agree it's hard to go wrong nowadays if you stick to a specialty tool manufacturer
With Ko-ken I feel that they still really take a pride in making affordable innovative quality Sockets and accessories (clearly influenced by the founders time in the USA working with tools for a famous American manufacturer).
From the classic knurling to the cool packaging to the free sticker with every order, it's almost like a homage to USA manufacturing from the past
It's interesting how the Z series/Zeal stuff has become almost a "boutique brand" on GJ compared to the more functional/industrial regular line (I love both)
I really hope they don't get squeezed out of the USA market by politics, it would be a crying shame after all that hard work
Ko-ken Tools History
Today, Ko-ken is one of the leaders in international tool production, designing and manufacturing tools in-house at the Ko-ken facility using the latest technologies to deliver the highest quality products possible. But how did the company grow to become what it is today? It all started with the...
kokenusa.com
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AldeanFan
Well-known member
My theory is that they must have made enough wrenches and sockets by now that there are enough in the world for everyone who want them.
I look for Canadian made vintage tools at garage sales and estate sales. These will
Last several lifetimes.
The two sockets shown are Snap-on from a set that goes from 1/2 to 1-1/4, purchased at a farm auction for about what a single socket would cost at Harbour freight.
The wrenches came in a box that a neighbour gave me after her husband died. She refused to take any money and just wanted her husband’s tools to go to someone who would use them instead of the scrap metal bin.
American hand tools seem more rugged than their foreign counterparts, but they lack somewhat in finish/QC and innovation. Snapon is the exception that comes to mind.
I’ll use US tools if I can, even if they’re not quite as good. Prime example is channellocks. I know they’re not the best pliers made but they always get the job done and I can appreciate their heritage.
I’ll use US tools if I can, even if they’re not quite as good. Prime example is channellocks. I know they’re not the best pliers made but they always get the job done and I can appreciate their heritage.
richfinn
Well-known member
We don't really see Channelock much in the UK.
I do like the build quality of Snap-On pliers, but Knipex are so innovative and have such a massive selection of models at reasonable prices in Europe it's a no brainer.
Then you have the old Metric argument for things like wire strippers, where the USA brands tend to be AWG.
I have used Channelock for years and found them good quality. Then I found Knipex and saw what quality actually means, I avoid Channelock. Now, I look for quality, which doesn't automatically mean made in USA.
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I buy hand tools primarily based on percieved quality, without being excessively priced, that have a good warranty for replacement stock. This means 2/3 of my primary criteria are subjective, and while I consider the COO, it's not a major criteria.
For example, a lot of my pliers and cutters are Knipex or NWS, as I have found them to be high quality in the fit/finish and the sense that I enjoy using them without issue, and therefore the higher cost compared to most cheaper options seems reasonable to me, and KC Tool has never given me any issue with a warranty claim. I'm sure I could just as well use a cheaper brand, but I'm not sure I would like them as much. Kinda like my Wera scredrivers whose handles I love and the tips wear well, but of course are more expensive than a Pittsburg set I just don't like as much. Likewise, I could use a more expensive brand, but not sure I would like them more just because they have a premium price, especially if it's only because it's made in USA. I have one pair of Snap-On pliers because the design was unique to them, but if Knipex or NWS offered the same design I would have bought from them instead.
Most of my sockets are Proto. I constantly get discounts from Zoro, and they regularly put Proto sets on sale. I like that they're made in USA, but I primarily choose to buy them because the quality is good, the price I've paid isn't excessive and typically cheaper than other options like Koken (and way cheaper than tool-truck brands), and both Zoro and Proto have been great for warranty. I've considered other solid options like Tekton and Gearwrench for sockets, but the cost savings is typically minimal so I have stuck with Proto. I suppose the fact they're made in USA helps me justify the slightly higer price for most of my Proto purchases compared to the Taiwan options, but when the price difference is huge, like when I wanted to buy some axle nut impact sockets, I chose Astro Pneumatic instead.
I think there is a 'sweet spot' for hand tools to buy really high quality without really high pricing, and COO isn't necessarily indicative of what falls in that sweet spot.
For example, a lot of my pliers and cutters are Knipex or NWS, as I have found them to be high quality in the fit/finish and the sense that I enjoy using them without issue, and therefore the higher cost compared to most cheaper options seems reasonable to me, and KC Tool has never given me any issue with a warranty claim. I'm sure I could just as well use a cheaper brand, but I'm not sure I would like them as much. Kinda like my Wera scredrivers whose handles I love and the tips wear well, but of course are more expensive than a Pittsburg set I just don't like as much. Likewise, I could use a more expensive brand, but not sure I would like them more just because they have a premium price, especially if it's only because it's made in USA. I have one pair of Snap-On pliers because the design was unique to them, but if Knipex or NWS offered the same design I would have bought from them instead.
Most of my sockets are Proto. I constantly get discounts from Zoro, and they regularly put Proto sets on sale. I like that they're made in USA, but I primarily choose to buy them because the quality is good, the price I've paid isn't excessive and typically cheaper than other options like Koken (and way cheaper than tool-truck brands), and both Zoro and Proto have been great for warranty. I've considered other solid options like Tekton and Gearwrench for sockets, but the cost savings is typically minimal so I have stuck with Proto. I suppose the fact they're made in USA helps me justify the slightly higer price for most of my Proto purchases compared to the Taiwan options, but when the price difference is huge, like when I wanted to buy some axle nut impact sockets, I chose Astro Pneumatic instead.
I think there is a 'sweet spot' for hand tools to buy really high quality without really high pricing, and COO isn't necessarily indicative of what falls in that sweet spot.
BIGTOY44
Member
Not true
SweetD
Well-known member
They're both good to me. I just like to find the deals on either.
richfinn
Well-known member
I switched to Vessel Megadora Screwdrivers a couple of years ago, love them, very reasonable pricing for the quality.
I also have a couple of P B Swiss ratchet screwdrivers too, a bit more expensive but not "Snap-On expensive", great tools
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
I think I own two PB swiss ratcheting screwdrivers... I think I paid more than I did for the four snap on ratcheting screwdrivers I own, but could be wrong. At least one of the PB Swiss came with lots of bits so that skews the price.I switched to Vessel Megadora Screwdrivers a couple of years ago, love them, very reasonable pricing for the quality.
I also have a couple of P B Swiss ratchet screwdrivers too, a bit more expensive but not "Snap-On expensive", great tools
richfinn
Well-known member
Snap-On is eye wateringly expensive on this side of the pond, P B Swiss is still high end but a little more affordable for us.
I'm guessing it's the opposite for you guys
coljar
Well-known member
I'm all over the board when it comes to buying tools. I try to buy USA made tools, but I have to like the tool. I buy whatever one I feel is the best. Like a long ago boss told me, "Buy the best and you will always have the best". He was one of those persons you pass by through your life that you respect their opinions.
I don't care that much about brands, I have all kinds and also Toptul and the taiwan made Facom/Mac/USAG wrenches that are exceptional.
I just like quality. Best pliers in the world? Probably Knipex... I have Channellocks (hard to get here in Europe), I have Snap On, I even have a lot of Japanese pliers that are really exceptional too. All of them are fine but Knipex is the plier brand to me, just very smart and innovative in a good way.
On the other hand I don't like Wera. Both Knipex and Wera are "innovative" but I feel Wera does it for the sake of being innovative and pretty. It becomes a gimmick. I like their allen keys but the rainbow sleeves are awful. The rest of their stuff disappoints me in comparison to Vessel or PB Swiss. Both Vessel and PB Swiss also make exceptional allen keys that are also a step above Wera in my opionion. Vessel has their own off-center engagement keys.
Best sockets? Probably Snap On and Koken (and Nepros). Toptul is amazing for the money though.
And so on... Another notable brand from Germany I like is Bessey. They make some serious F clamps.
I just like quality. Best pliers in the world? Probably Knipex... I have Channellocks (hard to get here in Europe), I have Snap On, I even have a lot of Japanese pliers that are really exceptional too. All of them are fine but Knipex is the plier brand to me, just very smart and innovative in a good way.
On the other hand I don't like Wera. Both Knipex and Wera are "innovative" but I feel Wera does it for the sake of being innovative and pretty. It becomes a gimmick. I like their allen keys but the rainbow sleeves are awful. The rest of their stuff disappoints me in comparison to Vessel or PB Swiss. Both Vessel and PB Swiss also make exceptional allen keys that are also a step above Wera in my opionion. Vessel has their own off-center engagement keys.
Best sockets? Probably Snap On and Koken (and Nepros). Toptul is amazing for the money though.
And so on... Another notable brand from Germany I like is Bessey. They make some serious F clamps.
nadogail
Well-known member
In my humble opinion, I prefer Taiwan made tools over those from Mainland China.
I've always been a fan of Wiha. A lot of their manufacturing moved to Vietnam but I still think they're eons ahead of Wera.
Like a lot of others have said, I buy because of the company and tool and not so much because of the COO. Some companies just specialize in certain things and have it mastered IMO. Most of the stuff coming out of Taiwan today is just phenomenal for the quality vs cost. I don't recall ever having any type of quality issue with something from Taiwan in the last 10 years; the stuff I have from Tekton and Capri couldn't be any nicer. I started to redo my old tool collection 15-20 years ago, so I have a lot of SK and Williams sockets, wrenches, and ratchets. But if I was doing it today there'd be a lot more Taiwan tools in my boxes because of the quality vs cost.
Pliers: Primarily Knipex. NWS. Some Tsunoda. Of course I have some Channellock, but there's just not in the same league as a lot of other brands IMO. A couple of the new Icon pliers- impressive for the $. Oh, a couple of Wiha from Vietnam because of a big sale. This was before the factory burned down: beautiful machining, on par with Knipex machining.
Ratchets: except for the older SK roundheads, etc, the newer stuff is mostly Taiwan brands like Gearwrench 90T, Tekton 90T. Then Matco 88s (USA), a few Capri 90T, a few Snap on in longer sizes.
Wrenches: Williams USA combos, Stahlwille DBEs, various Taiwan 0* DBE, various Taiwan ratcheting DBE, Craftsman RP combos.... Snap on and SK flare nut. Oh, Napa Carlyle combos that were on a huge closeout sale.
Sockets: SK, Williams USA, Sunex and HF impacts, Capri, Tekton, Koken, Craftsman USA... I think it's hard to buy a truly bad socket today if you get it from a "name brand" and not something like Slumdog Sockets that's made in a dirt floor garage in India and finished by hand on a belt sander.
Bit Sockets: mostly Taiwan like Capri, Vim, Tekton. Some USA SK, Williams...
Screw drivers: almost all are Wiha; I feel like I have half their catalog. Vessel. Williams USA hard handles for when the job is filthy.
Punches: Starrett, Mayhew, PB Swiss...
Pullers: mostly OTC Taiwan made, Posi Lock USA, Proto, HF Taiwan from ~1985 that are all still kicking
I think the only thing I have by Wera is a small bit ratchet. Agree that they seem to excessively focus on the industrial design aspect and making something basic look fancy; someone there must be a fan of Raymond Loewy. Meanwhile over at Stahwille: Hans, go put these wrenches on the belt sander
Pliers: Primarily Knipex. NWS. Some Tsunoda. Of course I have some Channellock, but there's just not in the same league as a lot of other brands IMO. A couple of the new Icon pliers- impressive for the $. Oh, a couple of Wiha from Vietnam because of a big sale. This was before the factory burned down: beautiful machining, on par with Knipex machining.
Ratchets: except for the older SK roundheads, etc, the newer stuff is mostly Taiwan brands like Gearwrench 90T, Tekton 90T. Then Matco 88s (USA), a few Capri 90T, a few Snap on in longer sizes.
Wrenches: Williams USA combos, Stahlwille DBEs, various Taiwan 0* DBE, various Taiwan ratcheting DBE, Craftsman RP combos.... Snap on and SK flare nut. Oh, Napa Carlyle combos that were on a huge closeout sale.
Sockets: SK, Williams USA, Sunex and HF impacts, Capri, Tekton, Koken, Craftsman USA... I think it's hard to buy a truly bad socket today if you get it from a "name brand" and not something like Slumdog Sockets that's made in a dirt floor garage in India and finished by hand on a belt sander.
Bit Sockets: mostly Taiwan like Capri, Vim, Tekton. Some USA SK, Williams...
Screw drivers: almost all are Wiha; I feel like I have half their catalog. Vessel. Williams USA hard handles for when the job is filthy.
Punches: Starrett, Mayhew, PB Swiss...
Pullers: mostly OTC Taiwan made, Posi Lock USA, Proto, HF Taiwan from ~1985 that are all still kicking
I think the only thing I have by Wera is a small bit ratchet. Agree that they seem to excessively focus on the industrial design aspect and making something basic look fancy; someone there must be a fan of Raymond Loewy. Meanwhile over at Stahwille: Hans, go put these wrenches on the belt sander
neophyte
Well-known member
I once did a test of diagonal cutters, cutting paper, to see which ones had the best matched edges.
Channellock beat Knipex, and I owned a number of pliers and cutters from both.
I think the Knipex cutters that came out not as well were the chrome plated ones, since the chroming seems to be done after manufacture, and throws off the tolerances slightly.
None of the Channellovk cutters were plated, but Channellock also has someone hand adjusting cutting edges from the manufacturing videos I’ve seen.
Of the other cutters I tested, Bahco came out spot on, but I only owned several pair of cutters and one pair of pliers, and the cutters were all the same Swedish made models.
The one pair of Klein cutters was spot on, butI didn’t really own enough to get a proper test of the brand.
Most of the Facom cutters were very good to excellent, but they were slightly below Knipex fir cutting fine material, and I’ve iwned a pair of Facom pliers in the past that could not properly cut a paperclip cleanly, and which got returned to Sears, so while I general consider Facom reliable, I don’t consider them perfect.
Crescent were usually reliable for cutter alignment, but a certain percentage were always just a bit off, at least back when the Crescent pliers were USA made.
Channellock beat Knipex, and I owned a number of pliers and cutters from both.
I think the Knipex cutters that came out not as well were the chrome plated ones, since the chroming seems to be done after manufacture, and throws off the tolerances slightly.
None of the Channellovk cutters were plated, but Channellock also has someone hand adjusting cutting edges from the manufacturing videos I’ve seen.
Of the other cutters I tested, Bahco came out spot on, but I only owned several pair of cutters and one pair of pliers, and the cutters were all the same Swedish made models.
The one pair of Klein cutters was spot on, butI didn’t really own enough to get a proper test of the brand.
Most of the Facom cutters were very good to excellent, but they were slightly below Knipex fir cutting fine material, and I’ve iwned a pair of Facom pliers in the past that could not properly cut a paperclip cleanly, and which got returned to Sears, so while I general consider Facom reliable, I don’t consider them perfect.
Crescent were usually reliable for cutter alignment, but a certain percentage were always just a bit off, at least back when the Crescent pliers were USA made.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
I feel as tho Knipex is the "emperor's new clothes" around here. I think people like them SOLELY because they are German and people associate German with quality. I bought a lot of Knipex pliers based on glowing reviews here only to find them pretty lack luster, soft jawed, and not that great in build quality. Side by side, the fit and finish of Snap On pliers is head and shoulders above Knipex. I just bought a set of Channelock duckbill pliers that are VERY nice, easily as nice as or nicer than my Knipex.
Knipex Snap Ring pliers are truly next level. I like the Pliers Wrench. Cobras are a neat design, but in my opinion, kinda rattly. Great for plumbing, or house hold stuff. Never felt I needed them for automotive. And the jaws are pretty narrow. I like Knipex assembly pliers; they have a round nose model like long handled, short-nosed needle nose and a duck bill version. Knipex have a HUGE array of designs, some of which are just not available elsewhere. But that doesn't make them great pliers.
I love German stuff, drove German cars for years, but I don't love Knipex and don't agree they are objectively awesome and Channelock are ****. Some of my channelocks are pretty rough, but some are rugged and well made. I have several pairs of Klein pliers and they are all pretty nice too.
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Agreed on one point
the Knipex bandwagon is FULL and tons of the riders have little to no idea why they are riding
HazetI think it’s ok if you buy a tool because you love the looks of it, you love the idea behind it, or admire the country/company that made it. Let’s none of us lose sight of where we are.
I do get a little miffed at the YouTubers reviewing tools they’ve never used. “Looks like it’s made well” isn’t information I personally value. I also don’t care that it “fits in your hands”. Sometimes the guys saying that aren’t even holding the tool correctly (I.e. as one would when actually using it).
Dakotadadv8
Well-known member
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- May 30, 2021
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Are German brand tools still made in Germany or offshore.
cody1325
Well-known member
I think they've pulled a lot of the same **** American tool companies have over the past 20-30 years. I've had a secondhand pair of Stahwille snap ring pliers for ages, but wanted some smaller pairs. My current ones are marked "MADE IN GERMANY". Yet, Stahwille now has them made in Vietnam.
Shocker
Well-known member
I prefer USA made tools for the most part but I have a smattering from all over.
There are exceptions though. If I need to torque it, then always USA or European. My primary 1/2" drive torque wrench is a Britool. Thing is awesome and never goes out of spec. My smaller wrenches are all CDI.
If I need it to grip, then USA or German made. Knipex is my favorite but I also have a nice little Gedore along with a ton of Channelocks. They all grip well but I choose based on need.
Most major manufacturers have pretty great ratchets these days, especially for serious DIY guys like me. I have a huge number of 3/8" ratchets and I just choose what I want at the time. Facom, SK, Craftsman, Snap On, Proto, Cornwell.. They are all pretty good. I do have some specialty ones like the Proto Spinflex with the multi adjustable heads etc.
There are exceptions though. If I need to torque it, then always USA or European. My primary 1/2" drive torque wrench is a Britool. Thing is awesome and never goes out of spec. My smaller wrenches are all CDI.
If I need it to grip, then USA or German made. Knipex is my favorite but I also have a nice little Gedore along with a ton of Channelocks. They all grip well but I choose based on need.
Most major manufacturers have pretty great ratchets these days, especially for serious DIY guys like me. I have a huge number of 3/8" ratchets and I just choose what I want at the time. Facom, SK, Craftsman, Snap On, Proto, Cornwell.. They are all pretty good. I do have some specialty ones like the Proto Spinflex with the multi adjustable heads etc.
I think it is not that fair to say they're poor quality. I have a few Snap On pliers now and was honestly expecting better too. Both the big and the small super overhyped adjustable needle nose snap on plier models (the ones now copied by icon) feel kind of loose by the joint, you can misalign them side by side for about the third of the jaw width. You can do the same with Knipex, but generally the box joint design makes them want to be centered.
I wouldn't even say Knipex is overpriced. Maybe some models, but in general I think you get what you pay for.
Depends on which. There is still a lot of industry in Germany. Especially niche brands like Knipex, Witte, Bessey... You can be sure those produce in Germany. Brands with big catalogues of tools probably import a few, it is very hard to make everything under one roof.
richfinn
Well-known member
Knipex is generally pretty cheap in the UK in my experience, it's a mixed bag when it comes to how good they actually are and what models to order, I've got stuff that I absolutely love and stuff I think other brands do better.
Knipex stuff I love includes
Cobra style hose clamp tools (for constant tension clips/clic-clic-r)
Pliers wrench
INOX flush cuts
Heavy duty side cutters with spring
Twin Grips (I think the finish is better than the Japanese Engineer Versions)
Stuff I think others do better
Wire strippers (Weicon work better and way cheaper)
Crimping tools (Sargent USA/T E Connectivity make better automotive stuff)
Locking grips (Vice Grip/Malco are way nicer)
I avoid the chrome plated Knipex stuff due to flaking
Knipex stuff I love includes
Cobra style hose clamp tools (for constant tension clips/clic-clic-r)
Pliers wrench
INOX flush cuts
Heavy duty side cutters with spring
Twin Grips (I think the finish is better than the Japanese Engineer Versions)
Stuff I think others do better
Wire strippers (Weicon work better and way cheaper)
Crimping tools (Sargent USA/T E Connectivity make better automotive stuff)
Locking grips (Vice Grip/Malco are way nicer)
I avoid the chrome plated Knipex stuff due to flaking
I love Wera screwdrivers but it's the only product i have from them, at home i have various tools from Gedore (the Red line) and i think they're good for an amateur/semi-pro use.
ps I've just discovered that Wiha has a Factory Outlet in Germany, in theory i should pass in that area next month, i "only" need to convince my fiance to stop.
Usually some made in Germany and some offshored. Wera has some made in Germany and some made in the Czech Republic.
Tools or syrup?!
I prefer American made whenever possible. We have a lot of great and innovative tool manufacturers here. Now if I run across a quality tool made in Germany, which I have set of large metric TOP combo wrenches made there I'll get them. Actually I'll buy any quality tool/product from anyone except China or India, except when absolutely necessary, which is rare.
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Some Wiha tools are made in Viet Nam. I have Bosch power tools from Malaysia. I think discussing tools based on company headquarters is a waste of our time.
My Bosch drill is made in Malaysia as well. At work we have Witte and Gedore (blue) screwdrivers, wittes are made in Germany while Gedore are designed in Germany and made in Slovenia, however my colleague can’t notice the difference between Philips and pozidrive so they’ll bust them no matter the coo.