Ugh - Town Governments: nothing is ever simple

[arkracing]

I asked for the garage restrictions on a property that I was interested in buying over a month ago - well after back and forth etc she never gave me the information (I lost the house/property as I never made an offer based on the fact that I wanted to build a garage and needed to know the restrictions etc).

Well I found another property in the same town (no garage again ) So I caller her assistant this morning and told her the property address, City Water/Sewer and lot size. I also explained that it was very important that I get the info ASAP as I had already lost a property due to them.

About an hour or so later this is part of the response I get (there was some stuff about the well/septic as well but doesn't really apply here):

"Hello Andrew,
I had emailed you the information previously. Sorry that you did not
receive the email.
The property is zoned RA-40
A detached garage or an attached garage must be located 50 feet from
both the front and rear yard property lines and 15 feet from any side
yard property lines.
The total amount of square feet that you can cover on the ground is 155
of the lot size which is 7,187 square feet of area that can be covered
on the lot with buildings and structures.
Any type of building is permissible as long as it can meet the building
codes.

Contact me with any questions.

Mary Barton, Land Use Officer"

WTF measurment system is she using? the 1st lot was 1.15ac the second lot I called about today is .35ac. 1ac = 43560 sq/ft right??? @ least from the quick google search I did.

155 sq/ft = so what 9x17, 12x13 what am I supposed to do with that? HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Daryl]

Since the "5" key is also the "%" key on the computer keyboard, my first guess might be that she meant to type not 155, but 15%. However, those numbers don't work either. Best approach is to go back to her with a very nice, almost apologetic, call to ask for clarification. Let her know you understand how busy she is and that you appreciate her help, especially as this purchase is contingent on getting a satisfactory garage footprint.

I asked for the garage restrictions on a property that I was interested in buying over a month ago - well after back and forth etc she never gave me the information (I lost the house/property as I never made an offer based on the fact that I wanted to build a garage and needed to know the restrictions etc).

Well I found another property in the same town (no garage again ) So I caller her assistant this morning and told her the property address, City Water/Sewer and lot size. I also explained that it was very important that I get the info ASAP as I had already lost a property due to them.

About an hour or so later this is part of the response I get (there was some stuff about the well/septic as well but doesn't really apply here):

"Hello Andrew,
I had emailed you the information previously. Sorry that you did not
receive the email.
The property is zoned RA-40
A detached garage or an attached garage must be located 50 feet from
both the front and rear yard property lines and 15 feet from any side
yard property lines.
The total amount of square feet that you can cover on the ground is 155
of the lot size which is 7,187 square feet of area that can be covered
on the lot with buildings and structures.
Any type of building is permissible as long as it can meet the building
codes.

Contact me with any questions.

Mary Barton, Land Use Officer"

WTF measurment system is she using? the 1st lot was 1.15ac the second lot I called about today is .35ac. 1ac = 43560 sq/ft right??? @ least from the quick google search I did.

155 sq/ft = so what 9x17, 12x13 what am I supposed to do with that? HAHAHAHAHA

 

[PAToyota]

My take was 15% as well, but as Daryl mentioned those numbers don't work out as well. They are closer to the original number, though (1.15 ac). So depending on the actual size of the property perhaps she was still referring to that property and didn't see your info on the new property?

 

[bmwpower]

Definitely get another answer from her. Those numbers are suspect. The last thing you need is for them to come out and stop your construction like they did to me thanks to a miscommunication on the their part.

If it is 15%, that's great. My % was calculated on the size of my house, so the bigger the house, the bigger the garage I could have built.

 

[z28toz06]

I asked for the garage restrictions on a property that I was interested in buying over a month ago - well after back and forth etc she never gave me the information (I lost the house/property as I never made an offer based on the fact that I wanted to build a garage and needed to know the restrictions etc).

Well I found another property in the same town (no garage again ) So I caller her assistant this morning and told her the property address, City Water/Sewer and lot size. I also explained that it was very important that I get the info ASAP as I had already lost a property due to them.

About an hour or so later this is part of the response I get (there was some stuff about the well/septic as well but doesn't really apply here):

"Hello Andrew,
I had emailed you the information previously. Sorry that you did not
receive the email.
The property is zoned RA-40
A detached garage or an attached garage must be located 50 feet from
both the front and rear yard property lines and 15 feet from any side
yard property lines.
The total amount of square feet that you can cover on the ground is 155
of the lot size which is 7,187 square feet of area that can be covered
on the lot with buildings and structures.Any type of building is permissible as long as it can meet the building
codes.

Contact me with any questions.

Mary Barton, Land Use Officer"

WTF measurment system is she using? the 1st lot was 1.15ac the second lot I called about today is .35ac. 1ac = 43560 sq/ft right??? @ least from the quick google search I did.

155 sq/ft = so what 9x17, 12x13 what am I supposed to do with that? HAHAHAHAHA

its probably a typo and she means .55% of the lot can be covered in building footprint. its says there 7187 sq ft can be built.

 

[boiler7904]

Are the town zoning ordinances and local building code amendments available online in your area? If so, it's usually pretty easy to figure out what your requirements are.

She only mentioned setbacks from property lines in her response. That doesn't take seperation from other buildings (the house) and any existing easements that may exist.

Her math doesn't add up any way you look at it. She must be using that mathemagic that I see all the time dealing with construction and local zoning / building departments.

 

[arkracing]

Ahh good guesses on the 15% - here is the last email that I got from her:

"Hi Andy,
It was a typo it is 15 % of the lot size not 155.

All of the same setbacks apply for a detached or attached garage.
50 feet front and rear yard property line setbacks and 15 feet side
yard
setback.
15 % of the lot area can be covered with buildings and structures.
149 Smith is approximately 15,230 square feet in lot area max coverage
permitted is 2,284.5 square feet which can be covered on the ground at
149 Smith Road.
Thank you,

Mary Barton, Land Use Officer"

Assuming that includes the house that is already on the property (very small @ 992sq/ft) - means that I have 1292.50sq/ft of FOOTPrint to work with - the house can always go up if needed as it is a single level ranch (with a dry partially finished basement anyway)

So I could get a 36x36, 26x48 in there or whatever - I don't think the property lines should be a big issue.
Although a garage that big might overtake the property - ehh I don't like cutting grass anyway - there is a large front yard on a quite/slow street so that would be good.

 

[arkracing]

She only mentioned setbacks from property lines in her response. That doesn't take seperation from other buildings (the house) and any existing easements that may exist.

She says that the rules apply to both Attached and Dettached - so I would imagine it doesn't matter how close to the house it is.

The only other thing that would create a problem is well and or septic - the particular property that I am now interested in is City Water/Sewer - so that isn't an issue

 

[boiler7904]

She says that the rules apply to both Attached and Dettached - so I would imagine it doesn't matter how close to the house it is.

The only other thing that would create a problem is well and or septic - the particular property that I am now interested in is City Water/Sewer - so that isn't an issue

Check with the building department. They would control building seperation. It's usually at least 10' for two buildings on one lot. Sometimes its more. Although, this requirement disappears if the two structures are connected by a roof (breezeway, mudroom, screen porch, covered porch, etc.) While you've got them on the phone, ask about building height. Is it calculated to ridge height or the midpoint of the sloped roof surface like some communities do?

Try to look at the recorded plat of survey for the property. It will show any easements that exist. It should be public record at your local county courthouse or the seller should have a copy.

Do the extra homework to make sure you can build this building.

My point in this is that you're specifically looking at buying this property with the intent of building a shop. Easements can kill that idea (and your enthusiasm) fast. My neighborhood has 40' and 50' rear yard setbacks. For the most part, each yard has a 10' or 15' utility easement across the back of each lot. But there is one street where each lot has a 75' pipeline easement running the full width of the lot that nothing can be built in. What looks like about 100' of buildable backyard is only about 25'. Throw in a 10' building seperation distance and suddenly what could have been a 30 or 40 deep building is now only a 15' deep garden shed. Good luck with this.

 

[toxicz28]

If you're concerned with losing another one, put in a bid with contingencies, ie. "I'll buy your house for $x provided the town will let me do y on the land after I own it."
If they accept those terms, you can still do your research and back out if the town won't let you do it.

 

[arkracing]

If you're concerned with losing another one, put in a bid with contingencies, ie. "I'll buy your house for $x provided the town will let me do y on the land after I own it."
If they accept those terms, you can still do your research and back out if the town won't let you do it.

Thanks - that is a great idea.

I'll check about easments - the front yard isn't a problem as I wouldn't put it there anyway.

There is plenty of room for 10' - 20' between the house and garage.

Height makes a differance - even if "there are no other restrictions" besides the footprint being the % of the land?

Think the courthouse would fax me that information? - or would I have to go down and get it?

Thanks guys

 

[wilbilt]

Around here, any roof overhangs are included in the footprint. My 2¢.

 

[mike944]

Thanks - that is a great idea.

I'll check about easments -

Think the courthouse would fax me that information? - or would I have to go down and get it?

It's not the local courthouse that has that information, it's the town clerk's office (which i suppose, could possibly be located at the courthouse, depending on the town.....)

I've always gone down to the clerk's office, i've never asked them to fax any records. I would suspect not, as someone will have to do the research to find the appropriate documents, which is time-consuming.

You're looking for either a map (plot plan) or any easment deeds. to determine if you have easments to worry about, which might affect the "usable" lot area.

You need to go into the town clerk's office, and ask where the records vault is located. You'll need the current owner's name and/or property address

Look up the name and/or property address in the maps index (sometimes on computer, sometimes on paper) and see if you can find a recent plot of the property. If you can't find anything in the maps index, you'll need to research deeds, which is a lot more time-consuming. Use the documents index to find the books and pages that the most recent deeds are. find those books, and read the deeds, looking for map references and/or easement references. Write down the seller's name from those deeds, and repeat, until you've gone back at least 50 years. If you find no references to any easements, you are limited only by the zoning department, and building dept's standards. Just be thorough, and cross-check ANY references you come across. This will probably take you a few hours, which is why i suspect they will probably not do it for you. They WILL help you learn how to do it, if you ask.

As a alternate, you could always call your lawyer, and ask how much to research easements. They have to do all of this research anyway, before the closing, so you can probably work something out with them, that it's $x.**, but if you buy the property, it will be covered in their normal closing bill (as i said, they have to do it eventually anyway, you're just asking them to do it early, no extra work on their part) They'll send a legal aide to the clerk's office, and do all this stuff. It won't take them very long, because they do this all the time, and know what they are doing.

as a second option would be to make an offer contingient upon "no property easements restricting the use of the back yard" They probably won't accept an offer stating "provided the town will let me do y on the land after I own it."

Good luck

 

[mike944]

holy ****, i didn't even notice that you were local. What town are you looking to buy in?

 

[PAToyota]

Should also be able to pick up a copy of the zoning ordinance from the town's building inspector. It will have all of these codes in it - setbacks, lot coverage, and any other requirements you may encounter. Most of the time they are fairly cheap - $15 to $25 around here. Money well spent.

 

[arkracing]

holy ****, i didn't even notice that you were local. What town are you looking to buy in?

Mike,
Right now I'm in an apartment in Manchester, CT - looking @ property in Thomaston, CT

Thanks for all that great information.

I think maybe we'll put the offer in with that wording - and then I'll give the lawyer a call and see what they can do.

-Andy

 

[mike944]

I'm in Vernon, right down the street. I don't know anything about Thomaston though.

See what your real estate agent says. They should be able to give you a good idea what contingincies a seller is probably willing to accept, and what will cause them to reject an offer.

You might want to also think about having the lawyer review the wording of the offer, if you can get an answer from them that quickly.

My lawyer has reccomended that he reviews stuff like offers BEFORE i sign them. I once gave him a real estate offer/contract to review, and he said to me, "What do you want me to tell you? You already signed the thing, so even if i don't like it, what are we supposed to do about it?"

 

[arkracing]

Well I got another email from the building and land use officer this morning:

She basically said that she can quickly look to see if there is a map or easment deeds for the property that I am interested in. If there was a map or whatever and scan it/email it to me.

Hopefully she'll come up with something - and if not my agent lives in town and she said that if I want she can do that for me as well.

Thanks for the great info there Mike - I printed it out and will put it in safe keeping for future use

 

[mike944]

I'd still be safe, and add that to the purchase offer. I've done numerous searches through town records vaults, and only a very through search can catch everything. A "quick" search may miss stuff.

Unless it has been "released", an easement, is an easement, forever. Even if it only appears on one deed, back in 1962. it SHOULD appear on all deeds from that point onward, but sometimes these things get missed, and get dropped off of all future deeds. But, that doesn't mean it no longer applies.

I just wouldn't want you to find a problem a week before closing, and then not be able to do anything about it. Better safe than sorry i always say.

 

[REFLEXX]

I'm just mad a the fact that it's going to be YOUR property and you have to ask "permission" to build what you want. 15% is ****. 30-40% is better.

Would they rather have undeveloped dirt? or all your projects sitting in the front yard. iIve got neighbors that look like they are having permanent gar(b)age sales, I wish they would put up a nice building and stuff that **** inside.

 

[arkracing]

I'm just mad a the fact that it's going to be YOUR property and you have to ask "permission" to build what you want. 15% is ****. 30-40% is better.

Would they rather have undeveloped dirt? or all your projects sitting in the front yard. iIve got neighbors that look like they are having permanent gar(b)age sales, I wish they would put up a nice building and stuff that **** inside.

Yeh I know - it's total BS, what freaking differance does it make - they are getting taxes from it.

but you gotta play by the rules

 

[arkracing]

Mike - I just wanted to say thanks again (and to all the other guys with suggestions)

I went down to the town hall today and did the homework for the particular property. I was very polite to everyone and they helped me get started with it.

I got lucky as there were only 2 owner's of the property in the last 80 years or so. I looked up every cross referance on the two and did not find any deed easments.
The only thing that I found was back in 1960 the original land owner's changed the agreement on the setback from 35 feet from the front of the property to 25 feet - but that no longer applies as the town's rules of 50' stand.

I also got a survey map and that did not have any easments either.

It was actually kinda fun looking through all the old books etc. It took me about an hour or so.
The people @ the clerks office were very understanding and helpful - so that made it nice as well.

-Andy

 

[boiler7904]

Glad to hear that things went well. When do you put the offer in on the property?

 

[arkracing]

Glad to hear that things went well. When do you put the offer in on the property?

Agent is drawing it up tonight for me and will fax it over. So if all goes well hopefully the offer will be presented tomorrow.

It's just a small starter home ranch that needs a tune-up

I figure it is a way to get out of our rediculous rent situation and gain some equity. I don't see it as a permanent home - but a nice place to start

BTW - I won't build the biggest garage possible - as it really won't help the value of the property that much.