"undercover" Sears security?
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TheGrooveking
Well-known member
I can understand them doing their jobs, and expect / demand respect. First off in the USA we are innocent until proven guilty (note: this does not apply with O.S.H.A./E.P.A. or I.R.S.). So if asked I would empty my pockets, if it went past that they would have a problem that would require someone to identify them when I was done with them.
Back in the 80's my wife and I were in a Venture store and she took some shirts into the dressing room and decided that she didn't want them, so she left them on the hook in the room. So as we are leaving a women and guy walked up to her and told her to come with them, I asked what it was about and the guy told me it doesn't concern me and for me to leave. He then grabbed my wife's arm, I can safely say that was the last time he ever thought of doing that as I pulled his arm off of her and threw it up behind him and drove his face into the brick wall. From there we went back into the store and awaited the police. When they arrived they wanted to speak to each of separately, I refused as I would not be leaving my wife alone. When all was said and done, the guy wanted to press charges against me, so my wife said fine, I'll press charges against you. He backed down. They cannot legally detain you, or lay their hands on you, that is what the police are for.
I did return to that store multiple times in hoping that the jerk security guy would attempt something again, but I never saw him again. My wife refused to ever go in that store after that. But it does make me concerned for her whenever she goes shopping in knowing that some idiot security person could try to be an idiot. For myself, I don't think anyone would want to mess with me, but in fairness if I was stealing I would expect someone to stop me.
TheGrooveking
Back in the 80's my wife and I were in a Venture store and she took some shirts into the dressing room and decided that she didn't want them, so she left them on the hook in the room. So as we are leaving a women and guy walked up to her and told her to come with them, I asked what it was about and the guy told me it doesn't concern me and for me to leave. He then grabbed my wife's arm, I can safely say that was the last time he ever thought of doing that as I pulled his arm off of her and threw it up behind him and drove his face into the brick wall. From there we went back into the store and awaited the police. When they arrived they wanted to speak to each of separately, I refused as I would not be leaving my wife alone. When all was said and done, the guy wanted to press charges against me, so my wife said fine, I'll press charges against you. He backed down. They cannot legally detain you, or lay their hands on you, that is what the police are for.
I did return to that store multiple times in hoping that the jerk security guy would attempt something again, but I never saw him again. My wife refused to ever go in that store after that. But it does make me concerned for her whenever she goes shopping in knowing that some idiot security person could try to be an idiot. For myself, I don't think anyone would want to mess with me, but in fairness if I was stealing I would expect someone to stop me.
TheGrooveking
kythri
Well-known member
I have no issue with "loss prevention" or "assets protection" folks doing their job. However, there job is not to make ANY physical contact with anyone, and if they're going to make an accusation of theft, they should be prepared to back it up.
Right now, there's one store I visit that I allow to check my receipt, and that's Costco. It's obnoxious, but it's a condition of membership.
Fry's plays this same game, but until they post a sign at the entry saying that checking my receipt when I leave is a condition of entry to the store, I don't let them, I just walk by and ignore them. Now and then, they've tried to hassle me, but I ignore them.
Like someone mentioned - when I make a purchase, that item is mine. I don't need to wait until I leave the store to pocket it, I don't need to show anyone my receipt unless that's been advertised as a condition of membership or entry (or something similar), something I have the ability to refuse prior to shopping there.
I don't make a habit out of pocketing my purchases, because typically they're not something conducive to that, but I have, at times, put a small item that I've paid for in my pocket and returned to shop - Sears has been an example of that - a socket return a couple years ago, did the return and then went to buy more tools. Didn't get hassled, all good.
Like I said - I'm fine with the security folks doing their job, however, I'm not fine with them attempting to be junior cops with their handcuffs (which they all used to carry). Unless you agree to be detained and restrained, if they physically apprehend you and cuff you, they've just committed kidnapping. Not that I have any sympathy for shoplifters, but the security folks get away with this because shoplifters don't know THEIR rights, and are scared because they've been caught. The shoplifting doesn't cancel out the illegal detainment/restrainment, and the cops SHOULD be making the shoplifter aware of their right to press charges.
Right now, there's one store I visit that I allow to check my receipt, and that's Costco. It's obnoxious, but it's a condition of membership.
Fry's plays this same game, but until they post a sign at the entry saying that checking my receipt when I leave is a condition of entry to the store, I don't let them, I just walk by and ignore them. Now and then, they've tried to hassle me, but I ignore them.
Like someone mentioned - when I make a purchase, that item is mine. I don't need to wait until I leave the store to pocket it, I don't need to show anyone my receipt unless that's been advertised as a condition of membership or entry (or something similar), something I have the ability to refuse prior to shopping there.
I don't make a habit out of pocketing my purchases, because typically they're not something conducive to that, but I have, at times, put a small item that I've paid for in my pocket and returned to shop - Sears has been an example of that - a socket return a couple years ago, did the return and then went to buy more tools. Didn't get hassled, all good.
Like I said - I'm fine with the security folks doing their job, however, I'm not fine with them attempting to be junior cops with their handcuffs (which they all used to carry). Unless you agree to be detained and restrained, if they physically apprehend you and cuff you, they've just committed kidnapping. Not that I have any sympathy for shoplifters, but the security folks get away with this because shoplifters don't know THEIR rights, and are scared because they've been caught. The shoplifting doesn't cancel out the illegal detainment/restrainment, and the cops SHOULD be making the shoplifter aware of their right to press charges.
We just lost one of our longtime Loss Prevention guys at my store. Short story. There was a guy blatantly shoplifting. The manager yelling over the store's walkies to "Stop him. Stop him. Stop him." Now the LP guy has been thru the training and knows what he can and can not do. So he stands in the middle of the door and asks the guy if he can help him. The guy trips and falls. Not touching the LP guy. Guess who got fired over that? Not the manager disregarding the company SOP but the LP guy...
The manger then tried to claim he was saying don't stop him. I told him he was full of **** and I, along with others, clearly heard what he was saying. Should be interesting when it all goes to court.
The manger then tried to claim he was saying don't stop him. I told him he was full of **** and I, along with others, clearly heard what he was saying. Should be interesting when it all goes to court.
I hope he's obtaining help from the state labor board, or has found an angel law firm willing to take the case, otherwise he's likely SOL. Even when clearly in the right, many lawyers still require hefty retainer fees which I doubt this guy can afford.
Oh I gave the loss prevention guys at Best Buy a break. . . by not buying anything from Best Buy anymore. A store that treats me like a criminal is not a store I'll support. Amazon.com doesn't harass me. Target doesn't harass me. Radio Shack doesn't harass me.
I was at Walmart in the self checkout line... Long story short, chick in front of me with two young daughters had a monster size purse. Under that purse was razor refills, pills, makeup, etc. She went to slide her credit card and I said you forgot a few things under your purse. She looked at me like huh... Went to slide it again and at this time, I lifted my shirt up revealing my badge. She looked at me again and removed her purse, grabbed the items and paid for all of them...
Worse thing Walmart ever did was install self checkouts.
I had a loss prevention guy approach me at Cub Foods. I ignored him and kept walking.
Worse thing Walmart ever did was install self checkouts.
I had a loss prevention guy approach me at Cub Foods. I ignored him and kept walking.
kythri
Well-known member
This absolutely *****, and is exactly why these guys shouldn't be playing cop. Their lives weren't worth whatever K-Mart was selling. No "struggle" should have ever ensued, in either case.
That said, both of the criminals in these cases deserve the chair.
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
My sister-in-law worked as a cashier at Sears in the 80's. One day, security called her in and told her $3000 was missing from her register. Long story short, they found the money in the vault. Someone made a mistake and left her cash bag in there when they cleared it out at the end of the day...so my sister-in-law's tape made it to accounting, but her cash didn't hit the bank.
So...they called her in and gave her the third degree. Then, they found the money in the vault, so they had to let her go. BUT...for the rest of the time she worked at Sears she (and ONLY she) was required to get a security guard to come to her cash register when she was ready to close and ****** her to accounting to drop of her money.
????
Phil
If it was $3000 exactly, a lot of the suspicion might have arose from that used to be the dollar amount at which a cashier would be quietly fired without pressing charges by many of the big department stores. As it used to be considered cheaper to fire them over that amount versus having corporate lawyers and senior investigators involved. A friend of mine who used to be a store manager had some crazy tales about people finding out about that back in the day, and conspiring to steal over it. He also said he ran into issues with loss prevention over them not being managed by him, but by corporate security. So there would be battles over him firing employees for theft versus loss prevention wanting to document it on a continuous basis for them to look good, even though it hurts the stores profit margins which directly affected the stores managements bonuses.
I'd be pretty livid about your sister-in-law being treated like that, things like that are why reading up on a companies code of conduct and such can be pretty worthwhile. She likely could have filed a corporate ethics complaint and had it ended, possibly with a significant apology.
BQuicksilver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 560
Loos Prevention: Sounds like they were doing their job well, even though it was a warranty.
i'm sure 90% of the time an item going to a pocket isn't legit.
i'm sure 90% of the time an item going to a pocket isn't legit.
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FergusonTO35
Well-known member
Working in law enforcement, I think it is a very bad idea to let anyone who identifies themselves as "security" to detain, search, or take you anywhere. Criminals impersonate cops all the time, whats to keep them from impersonating loss prevention? I can just see two thugs carrying walkie talkies and claiming to be security accosting a woman, taking her to an empty office, and having their way with her. My advice to anyone who is accosted by someone claiming to be security is call the cops on your cell phone and stay right where you are.
You'd be surprised how many people with criminal backgrounds work in the private security business. My coworkers and I had a good laugh when a guy showed up for a meeting with his parole officer wearing the uniform of a well known private security firm, complete with a big silver badge.
You'd be surprised how many people with criminal backgrounds work in the private security business. My coworkers and I had a good laugh when a guy showed up for a meeting with his parole officer wearing the uniform of a well known private security firm, complete with a big silver badge.
bustedbolt
Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 8
Here in NYC, (home of the stop-and-frisk police policy) after waiting in line for 10-20minutes at a Home Depot, you aren't very excited to wait in line again at the door for the security to recheck you out. But I saw one guy get the **** tackled out of him for walking by these guys and their line once. he had his receipt.
Funny thing is, they care a whole lot about their stuff but not yours: one of my friends had a whole locked Uhaul of tools stolen at the same Home Depot while he went in to pick up some materials.. and wait in the 20 minute check out line.
Just letting you guys know whats coming up for you in the not to distant future as these corporations with the rights of people decide just taking your money isn't enough for them.
Funny thing is, they care a whole lot about their stuff but not yours: one of my friends had a whole locked Uhaul of tools stolen at the same Home Depot while he went in to pick up some materials.. and wait in the 20 minute check out line.
Just letting you guys know whats coming up for you in the not to distant future as these corporations with the rights of people decide just taking your money isn't enough for them.
Perhaps it's different in Kentucky or in a few other states, but in many states "loss prevention" just wants to give "the impression" that they can detain or search an individual. As they generally have no authority and you're under no legal obligation to follow them to the security room or be searched without consent. As well as it being criminal assault for them to "touch" you. Granted, some places do hire off-duty police officers, who generally still have powers of arrest.
Regardless though, it's understandable why some places have it, as both petty and organized theft is rampant.
Hopefully he filed criminal assault charges against the individual, and contacted a lawyer to draft a nice letter for Home Depot.
kythri
Well-known member
One would think that it would be a conflict of interest for an off-duty cop to utilize his arrest powers in benefit of a private corporation paying him for those services.
One would hope such a corrupt individual would be placed behind bars himself.
The legality varies by state and police jurisdiction, but it's often considered a "benefit" to the community to have a clothed police officer out in the community at the expense of a business.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
In Kentucky a merchant can demand to search bags or parcels of someone on their premises. They have the right to detain a bona fide shoplifter but I don't think this extends to tackling someone, putting them in restraints, etc. The text of the law says that a merchant may use "reasonable means" to detain someone for a "reasonable length of time". A bona fide shoplifter who runs away with merchandise after being told to stop by a merchant can be charged with robbery, not sure how often that actually happens. Most shoplifters are surprisingly cooperative with store security. As I said, I believe its in your best interest to immediately call the police if security or store personnel accost you.
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Davi
Well-known member
Once when I was about 12 I popped into an auto parts store after school to look at a couple things and within minutes of walking in I had an employee tailing me about 6" off my ***. At the top of my voice I said to my mate "I'm outta here here, I'm not gonna buy anything if I'm going to get followed around like scum". I never spent another penny in that store right up until the day it closed down.
Here'd be my counter-proposal: "I have a better idea. Why don't you call the police right now, and detain me until they get here. Once they arrive I will, under protest, empty my pockets in front of them, using them as a witness. When nothing relevant to you or your organization is found, I will then demand the name of your immediate supervisor, that person's supervisor if any, the store manager, the regional manager, and the contact information for your company's legal department. I will then call my counsel and initiate a lawsuit against your store, your parent company, and then you personally for slander, and I will contact the state's Attorney General office to report you and your store for unlawful detention, seeking to have you criminally prosecuted. Or, as the loyal customer I've been for more than a decade with thousands of dollars in purchases, you get out of my way. Your choice."
I've been waiting, just WAITING, for this to happen at Fry's Electronics. I don't show my receipt at the door because there's no legal reason to do so at a non-membership store, so all it would take would be a young, inexperienced clerk being assigned to the exit to cause this to happen. I could use a couple hundred thousand dollars extra because of their stupidity.
Fry's Electronics is definitely the worst for employee theft. I had a couple of friends over the years who worked there and apparently it was rampant. Fry's didn't help matters by treating their employees poorly and paying them poorly, to the point that employees wanted to actively get back at the parent company. I tried to buy a Super-VHS VCR there once- the computer showed something like ten of the model I selected on a pallet in back but none could actually be located- the clerk that time offered to sell the next model up for the same price ($10 off basically) and they couldn't find any of THOSE either. Terrible store. Unfortunately given Radio Shack's slow demise into the Cell Phone Store, not a lot of other options for immediate discrete components from a local retailer...
I used to wear a trench coat almost regardless of the weather, and I'd find the loss prevention people looking at me in bookstores and the like. I'd mess with 'em by going up to them and asking them for assistance finding merchandise. Usually they freaked out, stammered something, and walked away.
Fordman7795
Well-known member
In my younger days I would frequent meijer when I was bored, usually a few times a week. This same manly looking woman always seemed to be there when I was there. Then it dawned on me she was plain clothed security. So i played a little game where I pretended I was the security and I was spying on her.
Most companies are afraid of lawsuits. Best Buy security for instance, are not allowed to touch you. All they can do is ask you to stop and step inside their office. If you continue, they have to let you go. Many will follow you into the parking lot to get your license plate number, but even that is against company policy and they can be terminated for endangering the safety of employees.
To even stop you, there is a list of 5 things they have to do. Among others, they have to visually have witnessed you concealing the product and have never let you out of their sight (so you couldn't dump the product).
To even stop you, there is a list of 5 things they have to do. Among others, they have to visually have witnessed you concealing the product and have never let you out of their sight (so you couldn't dump the product).
Davi
Well-known member
20 years ago I worked in the tool department at a Sears. The security guys would occasionally call me on the department phone to ask if I knew anything about a customer they saw putting something in their pocket or purse. Sometimes it was a warranty replacement or a broken tool we couldn't replace (out of stock, whatever), sometimes it was a real theft. The security guys would dress like regular customers so if they saw something on video they could come out and "shop" in the area and keep an eye on whoever they were after. They were definitely not 15 year old kids back then.
I think the real losses came from the delivery guys. Fairly regularly they would bust the drivers who would double load something that was purchased for delivery. 1 refrigerator would go to the customer, the other would be dropped off at the drivers house. Or the refrigerator would be full of tools that would be unloaded before getting to the customers house.
I think the real losses came from the delivery guys. Fairly regularly they would bust the drivers who would double load something that was purchased for delivery. 1 refrigerator would go to the customer, the other would be dropped off at the drivers house. Or the refrigerator would be full of tools that would be unloaded before getting to the customers house.
Brentocool
Well-known member
A friend of mine works at Menards part time. He says u cant believe the security they have there. mainly camera's. The crooks have all kinds of angles to steal stuff!! Heres what there doing now. One guy comes in the store and shops around for what he wants.Then he will go in a isle and open a big box,say a fan. Fill the box with the **** he wants to steal and tape it back up with the tape he took also from the store. Put the fan back on the shelf Behind other fans And leave the store! Not against the law right? Store cant do ****!! Didnt steal anthing right? Ok the next day his buddy comes in and buys that fan. Didnt steal anything right? He didnt know? Store cant do anything.
A friend of mine worked for CompUSeless for several years, and there was a theft ring doing this in that era when they'd morphed into a consumer electronics store. A customer would buy an LCD or plasma TV and the warehouse worker would bring out two and load the first one into the customer's car, then push the other one over to his own car and load it. Apparently they got away with it for years before a customer actually asked the store manager why two TVs were brought out instead of one... Jail time was sentenced in this case...
You're right, most companies have been sued before so they have policies in place. In practice though, employees do all kinds of stuff they aren't supposed to (chase shoplifters, go out into the parking lot,etc.). I've seen quite a few events personally, and I only worked retail for a year. It's not a big deal until someone gets hurt or sued, which is actually pretty rare IMO.
It's my understanding though, in regards to detaining shoplifters, that using physical force is accepted (depending on the company), but you better be darn sure that all of the 5 steps are followed!! I would imagine it is fairly hard to keep a constant eye on someone though without them getting spooked. It seems like loss prevention is a hard job if you do it right and follow the rules.
My turn. I went in a JC Penny to look for a pair of shoes for my toddler. When I couldn't find what my wife wanted me to get, I left. As I exited the little alarm sounded. There happened to someone else going out at the same time with a bag and she stopped and an employee began looking through it. It never crossed my mind that I might have been suspected of setting it off until another customer yells at me across the parking lot that she knows I stole something. I turn around quizzically and she practically takes off running between cars. I guess I look like a bad dude. It was about an hour later that I remembered that the alarm went off when I walked in the store, too. Guess I had something in my wallet that set it off.
Who knows, if you have a nice wallet, there very well may be a sensor placed in your wallet.
You'd be amazed at how many people set off the EAS going into a store. A lot of items have sensor tags/stickers in or on them, and they need to be taken out. For example, some retailers put them on cosmetics and expensive vitamins/supplements, so if they are not deactivated properly a woman may have one in her purse and set off the alarm every time. For the life of me though, I can't figure out why someone would not want to figure out why they are setting off the alarm every time (no offense to on1wheel).
Practice is illegal in a few states, thinking Tenn or Ark, not sure.
Stores shop each other, tracking unadvertised prices, product layout, all sorts of issues. I was in a ToyRus years ago with a little flip notepad writing down the rules to board games to see which were old games with new names. Manager comes over and wants to know what I am doing, and to look at what I was writing down. As long as it wasn't prices he said have fun.
Greatbear
Well-known member
Most power tools, chargers, batteries and similar products now have the anti-theft sensors placed inside the products rather than the packaging. A friend of mine who works with telco/networks would often trip up exit alarms with this tool set. I told him to either have his tools (it was a DeWalt cordless drill) run over the deactivating pad at a register or physically remove the tags from the tools.