Underground elecrical and water distribution box

[psu927]

Hey guys, getting ready to bury electrical and water out to my new pole barn. Its about 200' from the house to the barn, and in the middle I want to install an underground access/distribution box. From the house I will install spare electrical conduits, and I want to be able to tap into the waterline there as well. (future garden, and volleyball court)

Looking for ideas for the cheapest way I can do this. I thought about a 500 gallon septic tank. Cost for this would be a bit more than I want to spend, and the tank is a bit larger than I need. Basically I figure 4X4X4 with a 24" access would be adequate.

 

[Firebrick43]

Precast concrete man hole and vault . But I don't suggest it. Many professionals have died in them do to poor air quality and therefore suffocated to death before rescue. Some rescuers have died right along with them. Unless you have confined space training, harness, rescue tripod/winch, and an air quality sniffer I would highly discourage buried vaults.

 

[psu927]

Precast concrete man hole and vault . But I don't suggest it. Many professionals have died in them do to poor air quality and therefore suffocated to death before rescue. Some rescuers have died right along with them. Unless you have confined space training, harness, rescue tripod/winch, and an air quality sniffer I would highly discourage buried vaults.

No different than a well pit correct? They are very common in this area. (well pits are more expensive)

 

[Stuart in MN]

You don't want water and electrical in the same enclosure. For electrical, typically a handhole is used, it's just a square box mounted flush with the surface. For water you need to be below the frost level but that depends on what state or country you live in.

 

[larry4406]

Not sure of the proper spelling, but for electric I'm familiar with a "quazite box" which is not quite plastic and not quite concrete. Weird material. These are flush at grade with removable lid. Conduits turn up inside. You would need water proof splice IF you splice there.

For the water, I would just put the tee in now and a curb box with shutoff valve and leave it closed and hard capped. Ready for when/if you connect. You will want a valve anyway

 

[slow]

Curious why a bare conduit run next to the main wires to the garage with a cap for the power and a T for the water are not an option. Not sure where you live or if a frost line is a concern, but that is how I would handle the situation. Pictures of the trench with the empty electrical conduit is now, in case of questions later when/if you need to permit the electrical later.

 

[rockwithjason]

Google hand hole vault fir electric and you will get a variety of options. Use one for electric and one for water

 

[Firebrick43]

No different than a well pit correct? They are very common in this area. (well pits are more expensive)

Yes an no. People die in well pits the same, unfortunately many time children playing and are not big enough. There is a reason there has not been a well put in a pit in 60 years around here. Further more many pits are brick/block sides and the top of the pit set above ground. This means the vault is not nearly so tight and better atmosphere (although cause frozen pipes which is why many pits have a heat lamp in them).

 

[psu927]

Good input. I am running my water line in 4" drain pipe. (cheaper than sand or screenings). Have to mull over this. I will say I have no problem using a pit as far as danger, and I also have no problem running my water and electric through the same pit. But thinking it may be overkill, as the very least unnecessary.

 

[rockwithjason]

a pit is overkill to the extreme.
https://shop.chapmanelectric.com/quazite-box-with-divider-p-8572.html
this is what is used in the industry. we also use them for utility water taps. stub up for a hose bib and enough room to store a short hose. do not put your water stub in the same enclosure as your electric.

 

[dw1]

Do the "Electrical Tap Box" like others have suggested, you could put in a Frost Proof Yard Hydrant next to the box for your water.

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Woodford-46-5-in-L-3-4-in-Female-Brass-Frost-Proof-Yard-Hydrant-Valve/999946246?cm_mmc=SCE_BINGPLA_ONLY-_-RoughPlumbingElectrical-_-SosPipeFittingsAndIrrigation-_-999946246:Woodford&CAWELAID&kpid=999946246&CAGPSPN=pla{ifdyn:dyn}&CAWELAID=320011480007089899?k_clickID=f8be6389-9b77-4e98-948a-5bbd405014d4

 

[Stuart in MN]

I'll quote myself:

For water you need to be below the frost level but that depends on what state or country you live in.

We don't know where you are located in the world, but if there's a frost issue a handhole at grade level won't work.

 

[wssix99]

I think you are over-engineering this...

Looking for ideas for the cheapest way I can do this.

Assuming that you don't know what kind of fittings, etc. you'll have when the volleyball court goes up, I'd do the following:

- Put a "T" fitting the middle of your water line where you want the future tap to be. Put a threaded fitting there and cap it.
- Run a separate empty conduit from the house to the same area (off to the side) and cap it off. Hook the conduit up to a pull box inside or on the side of your house.
^ bed the above in sand, bury them in a layer of sand, with dirt in top of that. Put birdbath or attractive sculpture on top or bury a large metal plate at the surface, etc. so you can locate the spot in the future.

When you want to tap in to these in the future, you can use heavy equipment to dig down to the sand layer and then easily get to your fittings with hand tools. Make your hookups in the dugout pit - and then you don't need to worry about any of the expense or grief associated with vaults.

IMO - The only reason you'd need a vault is if you would need valves or have to perform some kind of service to the lines. Utilities just bury these things, using the method above and go back in when they need to make additions or subtractions.

 

[matt_i]

Personally I'd makeup everything now and place capped stubs as close to the area you are going. Install waterproof pull-ropes for future, in conduits. Obviously this requires another conduit run but I'd think that cheaper and better than any kind of underground Tee. Along the same lines if running a flex pipe for water, I'd run a parallel line in the same trench and makeup as many joints above ground as possible, and keep unbroken/continuous wires and tubes underground. Exploratory digging to find problems down the road *****.

 

[wssix99]

Along the same lines if running a flex pipe for water, I'd run a parallel line in the same trench and makeup as many joints above ground as possible, and keep unbroken/continuous wires and tubes underground.

Good point. My frame of reference (for the tee fitting) was large copper pipe. (We aren't allowed to use plastic pipe here - but I realize that's uncommon.)

 

[slow]

union driven as well? I always found cook county funny that all wiring had to be in conduit, never thought about water pipe.

 

[joe_padavano]

As far as water service, I think an underground box is overkill. I have several multi-hundred foot runs of underground 1" plastic well pipe that feeds hydrants at various pastures and at outbuildings. When I installed the pipes, I put caution tape about a foot above in the trench for later ID. When I ran water to my shop, I simply dug down to the existing pipe, spliced in a tee, and ran that pipe to the shop. No muss, no fuss.

 

[nh_yota]

You are overthinking this way too much.

Which is closer to the future garden/tennis court? The house or the barn? You should run dedicated water and electric conduits/lines between the house and barn, and then run a separate set of them just for the garden/tennis court from either the house or the barn. This will give you the option of shutting off and draining the water line to the garden so it won't freeze during the winter. For the electrical, remember if you run it from the barn circuit you will need to factor that into the sizing of the barn circuit. I wouldn't tap into the middle of the barn conduits because it introduces another point of failure that could impact service to the barn.

Conduit is cheap. Since you're already digging a trench, run a few different conduits to various points and cap them off a foot below ground level. If they're unused you don't need to cover them with a quazite box yet.

My father and I ran various conduits between his house and different points on his property at different points in time while the ground was being dug up for various reasons. When the driveway was being excavated and repaved 15 years ago, we ran drainage pipe for the gutters and also some empty 2" gray conduit for future electrical use. When he was installing a new septic system, a new well and a new addition to his house, we also took the opportunity while the ground was dug up to lay more conduit for future use. Although it's probably against code in many places, out in the country we can use black poly irrigation pipe for either water or electrical lines and decide at a later time what to actually use them for.

 

[Jess]

I don't think you would want to use anything other than a precast box and lid for what you need. Don't put in anything that is deep underground and manhole access because of entry issues. A manhole can be a killer and unless you own the proper ventilation equipment and gas/ oxygen detectors, you should never climb down into one. Same for septic tanks and other enclosed spaces. For your use, one each of the 24Wx36Lx36D precast boxes and lid would do for electrical. These can be obtained for use in driveways, properly engineered and will last a lifetime. Even if you don't think you will ever drive over or near it, having one that you could will save possible issues in the future. In my past career with a major utility, we replaced a lot of cheap fibreglass and light concrete boxes because somebody drove over them and collapsed the lid or box sides. Many of these utility boxes are designed to bury the lid under the lawn if necessary. A good pull box makes access to the conduits easier in the future. If you need to go deeper, the box should be larger, so you can stand in it and would have two covers. Design and availability will vary based on you location.

 

[psu927]

Good input. I think I will just bury an extra conduit from the house, and "t" off the 1" water line in the ground. I am still going to put the water line in 4" pipe

 

[sberry]

Some rather interesting ideas here.

Conduit is cheap. Since you're already digging a trench, run a few different conduits to various points and cap them off a foot below ground level. If they're unused you don't need to cover them with a quazite box yet.

My father and I ran various conduits between his house and different points on his property at different points in time while the ground was being dug up for various reasons. When the driveway was being excavated and repaved 15 years ago, we ran drainage pipe for the gutters and also some empty 2" gray conduit for future electrical use. When he was installing a new septic system, a new well and a new addition to his house, we also took the opportunity while the ground was dug up to lay more conduit for future use. Although it's probably against code in many places, out in the country we can use black poly irrigation pipe for either water or electrical lines and decide at a later time what to actually use them for.

Just out of curiosity,,, how many of these "various conduits" has one used since?

 

[sberry]

I haven't had a single piece of underground pipe or wire fail in several decades of installs, cannot recall I ever used a piece I installed just in case, not 1. Sure its a good idea to add a pipe if something is on the books but you do not need a spare water line for the water line.

 

[psu927]

I haven't had a single piece of underground pipe or wire fail in several decades of installs, cannot recall I ever used a piece I installed just in case, not 1. Sure its a good idea to add a pipe if something is on the books but you do not need a spare water line for the water line.

In my case I only need 1 water line (which will be in 4" sewer pipe because it is all shale here and that is cheaper than stone screenings or sand)

The spare electrical conduits, in my case, 1 is for future communications (phone, cable) and the other is for future switch travelers to the shed for 3 way control of outside lights, and a generator backfeed from the garage where the generator will be. (to a interlock on my main panel inside)