Underground garage

[bgarrett]

Hi everyone, I've just found this site and have enjoyed mining it for information.

For many reasons, I want to build my new garage underground. This will be in north Arkansas, rocky soil, and built into the side of a hill. I want a nice size shop, maybe about 50' X 100'.

I am thinking of digging out the side of the hill (or slope) with my backhoe and bulldozer, then erecting a conventional steel building frame with purlins and girts on a conventional slab, deeper where the 2 post lift will be. Large gravel under the slab and french drains along the walls will be used to help drain water away from the building.

Notice I said erect the FRAME for the steel building. I am thinking of covering the frame of the roof and walls with Ferro-cement to serve as waterproofing. (There will be no sheetmetal on the walls or roof.) You may need to go look up Ferro-cement. I had to. It has been used for hundreds of years to make water storage tanks and Boats.

According to this website, http://www.ferroboats.com/ ferro-cement boats built before 1855 are still in existence and at least one is still afloat.

Ferro-cement should serve as waterproofing. Even though Ferro-cement has been used to contain or seal against water for hundreds of years, surface bonding cement could be used over the ferro-cement as an excellent insurance aganst water penetration. The next thing is roof and wall loading. This website http://steelbuilding.com/ is Very Good. Go to 'price building' and you will see that they can supply you with buildings designed to accept 56 inches of snow load for the State of Maine. This is comparable to the approximately 3 feet of dry earth (or its equivalent) that will be needed to cover the roof. Wet dirt is a LOT heavier.

Expanded polystyrene is readily available in sheets and blocks of any size. This can be placed around the walls before the dirt is backfilled and dramatically lessens sidewall loading and of course can be used to cover the roof too. It is obvious that the EPS will serve as insulation.

There are also membranes and shrinkwrap to form a waterproof cover for the entire building.

Fresh air intake is important to minimize the possibility of moisture buildup. This site, http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html does not mention fresh air intake, but it is easy to see that one or more of the tubes can be open to outside air.

Sunpipes and skylights http://www.sunpipe.com/30.htm can allow light into the workspace. The ground temperature is about 58 degrees year-round. The skylites can also allow some heat from the sun, which will be welcome to bring the temperature to a more comfortable level.

There are a hundred other details, such as escape hatches on the wall opposite the doors, but what do you think of this as a start? I am very concerned about moisture leaking into the building. The ferro-cement should bond to the slab and be OK but that is my biggest concern.

I welcome any comments, good or bad. Thanks Bruce

 

[krooser]

It looks to me like you are trying to re-invent the wheel.

I wanted to build an earth-shelter home back in the early 70's. While the world of building has changed alot, I would think you would have a hard time finding a bank to finance this project.

My bank wouldn't consider financing any project using unconventional building techniques. You may be in a position to finance this yourself without a mortgage but most lenders are cautious about financing stuff like this.

Why not just use a poured wall foundation built into the hillside? Perhaps using the styofoam wall form technique that adds insulation?

You can also put a grass roof on it and hire a few goats for lawnmowers...

Good luck...

 

[sberry]

I have to agree, I am not sure the specialty engineering it would require, design and special construction techniques would be worth it??? Remember, the shape and design of hulls and tanks lend themselves well to this, a flat wall will need a huge amount of reinforcing.

 

[bgarrett]

Please explain, sberry. When you follow the link I supplied, you will see that all the engineering has already been done. The ferro-cement is simply a waterproof skin that will be applied to the frame. There is no specialty engineering required, the design is a standard metal building, there are no special construction techniques required. As pointed out, ferro-cement has been used for hundreds of years by unskilled laborers.
Why do you think a flat wall will need reinforcing? As already mentioned, I plan to buy a steel building frame that is designed to take the heaviest snowload in America, then reduce the loads with Expanded Polystyrene. Snow loads are not only on the roof, but also pressing against the walls.
After doing a lot of research, I found that poured concrete walls are expensive, steel frame buildings are the cheapest way to put up a building.
The most important thing will be preventing water from getting inside.

 

[sberry]

Okay, but burying a steel building is different than a free standing, you can talk yourself into it if you want. I am all for inovative construction but I would be getting some legitimate engineering opinions if it was mine before I sunk my loot in something that may be a brain fart. Just going by some snow load figures seems a bit skimpy. How do you figure snow loads apply to lateral pressure against the walls? I just glanced at the links, am somewhat familiar with fero construction but I didnt see any design info compared to this project.

 

[swgray]

You seem worried about snow loads and not the least bit worried about pressure from the earth.

An underground garage/house/room will have to be a retaining wall on most if not all walls. My garage is in effect a big retaining wall, which is why I paid an architect to do the number crunching for it. It's a poured lower level with a room above. It also holds back a hillside.

I would think if any standard building was buried up to its roofline (even on level ground) the pressure of the earth and ground water would eventually crush the building.

 

[sberry]

This type of building does not go on a typical slab, it sits on piers and footers that need to be engineered.

 

[Luckydevil]

Steve (screen name "Ultgar") built a VERY nice underground garage for a client of his. Might want to shoot him a pm and see if he'll do some consulting work for you.

 

[Hamptons]

I've never heard of anyone trying to 'bury' a steel frame building in the manner you described. There must be a reason why. If it is that much more cost effective, you would think someone would be marketing this. I know of no commercial or residential builder who is using this techique. Therefore, I would exercise caution.

My concerns would be:
- whether the installation requirements suit your situation (ie: on a poured footer)? You also need to consider post installation ground settlement and its effect on your structure and the integrity of the attached ferro-cement
- moisture barrier and drainage considering there will be cracks in the ferrocement
- corrosion protection - all buried metal requires some sort of cathodic protection
- soil pressure - it sounds like you want to use the ferro-cement boards as a sort of exterior sheathing. Don't underestimate the weight of the overburden. Fill and gravel at the base of your structure with over 8 ft of soil on top of it will be WELL over the weight of 56 inches of snow. Also consider the ferro cement. Check its tensional strength. All cement is brittle and is strong in compression but not in tension. This is why cement foundation walls are poured 8 inches thick with rebar to increase its strength rating. My guess is the ferro cement will break and the structure may buckle at the base when you backfill.
- frost heave; and last but the most important
- does this sort of thing meet code where you live?

Personally, I think you should go with the conventional technique in your area for foundation walls and basements (if applicable).

 

[DynoDave]

Bruce, sounds like an interesting project. I love the unusual, so it has a certain appeal to me. Also, there's a sub near me that I would love to live in some day (Big $$$), but no detached buidlings. Lots of rolling lots with walkouts though, so I've already warned the wife if we ever get there, that the walkout is mine as a second garage.

Anyway, are there any links to this process used in the manner that you propose? Have you talked to any of the boat builders about your application?

 

[sberry]

I commend bgarret for thinking out of the box here, thats a good thing. But the design expertise and the skill factor and even the specialized equipment wouldnt make this practical. He assumes after reading some snow load figures thats all there is to it. Most of the highlights were pointed out so far and there is no way the steel building people are going to sign off on this for several reasons so it would take outside engineering and its kind of obvious the word amateur was misinterpreted for unskilled, in fact there are several examples on that page that show what can happen, that is with a realatively small boat compared to the size of this structure. I would feel fairly safe saying that a lot of people on this board may be considered amateur but highly skilled. Just finding the manpower skilled in this technique for a job this size would be quite a challenge all its own. You are correct that in many cases a steel building can be as economical or more so than other types but it wont be here. Think of sitting a cement block on a shoe box and then kick the sides in. That is a rudimentary analogy but likely fairly accurate. We have found several issues and havnt even put a pencil to it yet. You asked for the good and bad, you got the bad first, I am going to try to come up with something on the upside?

 

[the intimidator]

mayby im not thinking rite but the side walls would need to built like every basement under a house using cement and forms. im sure you could do it in steel too but would cement not be cheaper and easyer to put up {if your highering a contracter} and for the roof could you not do the span-crete precast panels like i have seen mentiond in other posts for constructing a basement under a garage? span-crete i would definatly want a enginer to draw up the plans though because the load would be immense on the roof expecially at 50x100 feet

 

[sberry]

Yes, its not that an underground garage is a bad idea, very good one actually but yes, the walls will need to be thick and part of the roof structure will be a factor in keeping the walls from collapsing. The side walls could be used to react against each other but the one endwall would need special consideration. I would certainly want to look at some various approved designs, maybe even a combination of tilt slab, pre-cast, poured in place,, who knows. I am sure a legitimate engineer and and architect would look at things we havent even thought of here. Its a great thought, needs a little research.

 

[GearHead_1]

Not simply echoing the sentiment here. I would love to have a shop the size you are planning on building but I think I would have to pass on the less than conventional construction also. I'm all for inovation and technology I just prefer not to be the first guy to get his bumps and bruises on it. I know you're not the first but this type of construction has to be a very small percentage of shops and garages. It would be very well insulated.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Over on the Fine Homebuilding forum there's a guy who builds energy efficient homes, and he seems to know quite a bit about the kind of structure you want to build. His own house is built into the side of a hill, with a reinforced concrete roof that's very strong (he's posted pictures of his car parked on the roof.) There's some pictures of his house, along with his email at this link: http://paccs.fugadeideas.org/tom/index.shtml

Another guy on the Fine Homebuilding forum builds thin shell concrete domes that may be another interesting way to go. His website is http://www.cloudhidden.org/

 

[imported_banzaitoyota]

It can be done with rammed earth tire walls, but for that span you'll need some hefty beams

 

[bgarrett]

I appreciate the comments, well not the non-thinking ones. They frustrate me and I know it shows. Sorry. I publicly apologize to Kroozer.
Some of you are extremely negative, with nothing to back up your opinions. I am supplying you with links backing up my concepts. Where are your proofs? As usual *some* people are eager to be negative without doing any thinking or checking of the facts.

I also see some posters offering positive thoughts. Thats the kind of thinking that has produced automobiles, electricity and tall buildings. I thank 'the intimidator', and Stuart in MN for the links.

Theres no re-inventing the wheel here, just tying proven techniques together.

There are no banks involved. There are no building codes involved, its way out in the country.
Maybe I should have included the link showing a quonset hut that has been buried. http://home.earthlink.net/~dectiri/MTQuonst.htm

Some of you are making things up. "Eight feet of load on the roof??' Where did you come up with EIGHT feet?? I mentioned 3 feet of dirt or its equivalent.

"You seem worried about snow loads and not the least bit worried about pressure from the earth" I am not worried about snow load at all. There will be no snow load on this building. Load is load, earth or snow. If a building is designed for snow load, you can substitute the weight of dirt, sticks or clueless forum readers. Maybe you didnt read the part about Expanded Polystyrene?

"This type of building does not go on a typical slab, it sits on piers and footers...." No kidding!!! Maybe I should give up on this forum for intelligent thought on this concept. . It seems to me that people intelligent enough to build cars and their garages would be a little bit more intelligent than most sheeple. Several of you seem to think this is being done with no engineers being involved. I do not expect the engineers to do all the thinking for me.

One of you even said that since he never heard of it, it must not be feasible. "I've never heard of anyone trying to 'bury' a steel frame building in the manner you described. There must be a reason why."
With that kind of logic, how did we ever invent cars and electricity and tall buildings? No one had heard of them either.

"- moisture barrier and drainage considering there will be cracks in the ferrocement" I covered moisture barrier (ferro-cement, Surface bonding cement, membranes and shrinkwrap). I covered drainage, (gravel under and french drains for the walls)

....."considering there will be cracks in the ferro-cement,,,," where do I begin rebutting a statement like that? Go read up on ferro-cement. Your fears are unfounded.

....." it sounds like you want to use the ferro-cement boards as a sort of exterior sheathing...." I dont see how you translated my words like that. Even though 3 engineers have suggested using FC panels, and SIPS, I do not find information showing any advantage for this design.

One guy suggested going with conventional methods. That is where I started. The usual method is to drystack cinder block and coat it with a fibreglas slurry, Surface Bonding Cement. I calculated the cost of the cinder blocks at about $30,000, thats thirty thousand dollars for cinderblocks, plus the slurry and the labor and the rebar. I have considered all known types of construction and this concept as emerged as the best approach.

Even though Ferro-cement has been used to contain or seal against water for hundreds of years, the surface bonding cement could be used over the ferro-cement as an excellent insurance aganst water penetration.

I can understand *some* of your negativity, When I started this I had never heard of ferro-cement. I realize that doubters serve a purpose and that doubters are not going to spend the time to follow the links and research this as much as I have. I suspect doubters are the 1-800-credit card car builders.

As I have learned two people can exchange ideas, even when both have unworkable ideas and a new workable idea can pop up. I encourage more comments and I apologize if I dont seem to have people skills.

what seems impossible to imagine only means that imagination is lacking

 

[the intimidator]

hmm i just got what you were after with the steel building lol "There are no banks involved. There are no building codes involved, its way out in the country.
Maybe I should have included the link showing a quonset hut that has been buried. http://home.earthlink.net/~dectiri/MTQuonst.htm "

i myself dont see much of a proplem with this type of structure being burried they are a very strong structure and from the link above it apears they are able to take the stress of being burried i would still talk to the manufactur and a private enginer or archetect to determin the loads that this garage will see and what if anything will need to be modifyed ex. extra support, thicker material, galvinized metal, stainless steel fasteners ect the last thing you want in 10-15 years is rusty fasteners.

 

[imported_banzaitoyota]

Here is a link to say YOU CANT just bury a Quonset style building:

http://www.pioneersteel.com/accessories.php#

Can I bury my building underground?

No. Burying the building underground means that it is under constant weight, pressure and stress from the earth in which it is buried. Pioneer buildings are not engineered for this kind of use.

 

[sberry]

I welcome any comments, good or bad. Thanks Bruce

You got some stuff you didnt like and your not happy, oh well. As for research clipping a website or 2 and quoteing some vague numbers doesnt qualify as "research" and if it did amount to anything substancial you would have soon come to the conclusion that while this kind of thinking can be good excercize the basic particular concept as a going concern is a brain fart at best. Thats certainly an opinion, want what we are really thinking thats it, no sugar. Simply burying a steel bld wont get it.
Having said that the concept of underground structures have great legitimate merrit and there is room for some exceercize in creativity. Because both sides and an end will be filled, maybe one endwall open one could dig a footer and foundation, after that was set or maybe even some kind of monolithic pour one could basically pile a huge mound of shaped and compacted dirt, round endwall, cover it with plastic, 2 layers oof engineered rebar and pour a foot of concrete tappered to buttress style bearings at the footers over the whole thing. Throw thick foam over it on top, cover with a pit liner after to waterproof then take a payloader in from the open end and excavate the dirt out after it has set. Even reinforcing type beams fould be poured by countouring the earth prepour, engineering would be simple and it could be a DIY construction job with marginally skilled labor, simple equipment. Easy to insulate, very strong, very well proven, easy to build. Almost no constructed form work.

 

[sberry]

I would pour about 3 big grade beam style stiffner rings in it. look similar to a quanset and bomb proof strong. You could internal a bunch of piping work and wire raceways pre-pour and save gobs of labor, do it all on the roof before the pour, could even box in a lot of fixture work that would be difficult to reach from underneath. There would be a lot of innovative options. You could even damm near use a quanset building as a form, you might have to put some falsework in but pour a cap right over it.

 

[sberry]

Now in all fairness to garret the basic concept in the beginning was a good one, it just needed some work. I would look at 8 ft poured walls with this quanset on top. Fabricte in some beams, formed for pour, then resistance weld about 5000 metal studs to the quanset, then add a layer of rebar and pour a cab with any fixtures pre-engineered in. You could curve the endwall even. This would give 8 ft of straight wall and make for tall center ceiling height, lets add some in floor heat, you could drive a tank over it.

 

[sberry]

His idea might not be totally flawed with ferro type or better yet with shot crete. You might use a steel skeleton that was specially designed for this application, create a tublar structure using the framework. You are not going to be able to bury a common building and sheet it with ferro as it was suggested in the beginning though.

 

[sberry]

I looked at the links above, I like the bar joist design, thats beautiful, simple strong for backfill and got some healthy endorsement from the zoning people. The material cost would be reasonable for sure.

 

[sberry]

I looked at the bar joist house again and the more I look at that the better it looks. There is a lot about that is really good.

 

[bgarrett]

hmm i just got what you were after with the steel building lol .

You have me completely scratching my head over this comment. After looking at all types of building, this is the least expensive.

 

[bgarrett]

Here is a link to say YOU CANT just bury a Quonset style building:

http://www.pioneersteel.com/accessories.php#

Can I bury my building underground?

No. Burying the building underground means that it is under constant weight, pressure and stress from the earth in which it is buried. Pioneer buildings are not engineered for this kind of use.

Pioneer left out the "Earth has corrosive chemicals" argument

I spent 1 1/2 hours on the phone with the engineer at steelbuildings.com yesterday
His suits at 'corporate' totally ignored the fact that no earth will touch any part of the building. In the beginning, building codes were to insure a good, safe building. Now EVERYTHING is driven by the insurance industry.

Pioneer has taken the easy way out. I suspect the manufacturer of the Montana buried Quonset would say the same thing. http://home.earthlink.net/~dectiri/MTQuonst.htm

The posters on this site sure do harp on having everything approved by 'engineers'. Evidently, it hasnt occurred to them that I am an engineer. I do have several engineers involved but I do not expect them to do all the thinking for me.

This is my baby. I will not blame engineers or expect insurance companies to give me money if the building collapses.. I will not be suing the county. I take responsibility for my actions. I hear that isnt being done in America now-a-days. I believe insurance is a socialist concept. Take from many, give to a few.
I am not interested in trading my ability to take care of myself for the false security of government approval and insurance coverage.

The bottom line is This building is going to happen, it is not going to collapse.

 

[GearHead_1]

The bottom line is This building is going to happen, it is not going to collapse.

Well then, I guess there's nothing left to say.

 

[sberry]

Some people know more about this sort of thing than most other people do, I got a couple engineer buds that we suggested they dont guit their day jobs to become builders. Its going to happen, ya, ok, now you figure to dig in and prove something,, good as basis for critical design work as there ever was and computer software engineer dont count here. Even the building company says they dont want anything to do with this, with good reason, sounds like solid advice to me. As for the quanset it is 30 ft wide which needs to be about a third as strong, he had some concept about backfill requirements, has a foot of dirt on top at center and he just didnt pick some snowload numbers from a hat. The quanset guy actually did some real research. I would like to see the conversation with the building inspectors over this. I can visualize this 1 1/2 hr discussion from here, one hour and 20 minutes of you trying to convince them you know more than they do, Good luck, send pictures.

 

[sberry]

Logic is a miracle and I been working on it as I dont have any extra brainpower to spare, there are a lot of people that are a lot smarter than I am, I understand that, I respect that and I accept that. I can say that as a matter of basic logic and rudimentary statistical fact. My ego screams against this, its something I have to continiously learn and be told, my guys tell me all the time, you aint listening. Being stuborn can be an asset as well as a liability. Now, I think like Bruce here does too, I can tell he is a smart guy, probably 10 points beyond myself for sure. I come up with ideas too, just ask anyone here, they get tired of it. There is usually the grand scheme to start with or the cost is prohibitive, any number of things could make an idea impractical or given some time things will work themselves out to a realistic level. Now I am a firm beliver in statistics and realistic gambling odds and since I aint Einstien the chances of inventing something revolutionary or ever particularly innovative are short and I play the simple odds, I make the best bet including letting some people do my thinking for me and I keep some basic poker numbers in my mind that I apply to almost everything, this applies to maint work as well as construction, including what are the real chances I can do this, even down to logic as to when someone is blowing smoke up my ***. I dont take every concept or statement when BSing ideas literal, it takes time to refine any new concept or application. When this guy says you cant bury the quanset he made a good judgement call based on several things, one bieing who he was talking to, the info provided and the obvious oblivion to any kind of realistic issues considered by the guy that asked the question, banzitoyota has some poker sense, I seen him around, he isnt full of bull****, I have read a lot of his posts, he basically said you got your head up your *** as is pretty much the common concensus. If you would have come along with some practical design criteria and some basic proven concept, who are you. Frank Loyd Wright in your spare time? He built some overpriced junk as practical concerns but WTF, seems no one but "all these other engineers you know" think you have a snowballs hell of building an outhouse let alone something as sophisticated as this based on,, all the engineering has been done, not one real sketch even, how easy its all gonna be, well the odds being, if I was gonna place bets here I would bet you are full of ****. Lets take a pool up here, I bet a couple of these guys here would give odds that 8 out of 10 people that actuall knew you would say you were full of ****, not including your wife and kids. This means I would have to have at least a 10 to one to bet for you and that still leaves 10% fudge factor for gut instinct that follows my first impression which is usually right 50% of the time. You wanted honest opinion, thats it.

 

[Luckydevil]

Alright, this one is going nowhere.

bgarrett- Shoot Ultgar a pm and see if he might be able to give you some advice. He has built an underground garage before.