Underground service cable, conduit or not?

[acer66]

Sarcasm? or have I missed something?

No, I ran three extra pipes since digging is the hardest part for future extensions like water, ethernet, etc. and since I pulled the wire, mhf, myself I went with 2” pvc for the electrical run.

 

[RPH]

Conduits fill with water due to condensation. Unlike water pipes that condense on the outside electrical conduits are open to air infiltration along with the humidity in that air. Once cooled underground the humidity condenses.

 

[mcspeed]

Conduits fill with water due to condensation. Unlike water pipes that condense on the outside electrical conduits are open to air infiltration along with the humidity in that air. Once cooled underground the humidity condenses.

Makes sense in theory. In reality, there is not enough air movement to create sufficient condensation to fill with water. Additionally, sealing the ends would be an easy fix.


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[Bert_]

Makes sense in theory. In reality, there is not enough air movement to create sufficient condensation to fill with water. Additionally, sealing the ends would be an easy fix.


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You don't have to believe it but it still happens. During very dry weather the water might evaporate but if it's humid you can be sure it will fill up.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Makes sense in theory. In reality, there is not enough air movement to create sufficient condensation to fill with water. Additionally, sealing the ends would be an easy fix.


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Believe it or not.

Ive seen it many times. Even with sealed conduits

 

[Innovate1]

Not sure why. There is no one to inspect it.

I lived in a rural area like that about 20 years ago. I put a new main panel in the house because it was undersized and the house had a good sized addition. The power company just sent a couple workman out to hook up the new feed line. I asked them if they wanted to look at the panel and they said, no, they were just there to hook things up and had other work to get to that day. Everything was fine and no issues with selling because the whole county was that way.

 

[rburke65]

No Sarcasm.......you can never go wrong with an extra....or two.....conDuits. How many times do you want to trench ? PVC is Inexpensive

 

[dutchgray]

Believe it or not.

Ive seen it many times. Even with sealed conduits

Don't think I have ever pulled wire or a draw cord out of an underground conduit and not had it come out wet. They are considered a wet location when it comes to cable requirements.
They are not always full if they have a way for the water to escape somewhere, but there is almost always a low point that fills up.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

No Sarcasm.......you can never go wrong with an extra....or two.....conDuits. How many times do you want to trench ? PVC is Inexpensive

You can never have too many conduits! I ran four. One for power, one for cable/ethernet, one for an air hose, and one for a beer line from the basement kegerator.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can never have too many conduits! I ran four. One for power, one for cable/ethernet, one for an air hose, and one for a beer line from the basement kegerator.

A beer line? lmao thought i heard it all before.

 

[misterfixit]

An update FWIW. Got the electrical line from the disconnect to the soon-to-be shop, have it stubbed up. Conduit all the way. On that note let me say that in my opinion 2" conduit is too small to pull 4/0 4/0 2/0 with a #2 ground. I pulled through one section at a time because I had 3 90's and a 45 to get through to get around the concrete parking area. I would have hated to have tried to pull through all that at once.

 

[bigdav160]

You can review the diagrams on this thread, post #3:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

Just curious, I am not a licensed electrician, but why, in the first picture, is the subpanel neutral bonded to ground?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Just curious, I am not a licensed electrician, but why, in the first picture, is the subpanel neutral bonded to ground?

Because it's a 3 wire feeder and the neutral is used also as a ground.
The use of 3 wire feeders were discontinued as of the 2008 NEC's adoption

 

[bigdav160]

Because it's a 3 wire feeder and the neutral is used also as a ground.
The use of 3 wire feeders were discontinued as of the 2008 NEC's adoption

But it's my understanding that the neutral and ground should not be bonded in the subpanel of a detached structure. Am I wrong?

I guess the millions and millions of 3 wire service are suddenly a death sentence.

Reminds me of a picture on this fishing forum where a member was having a house built on the coast in Mexico. There didn't appear to be any grounding at all. But hey........

 

[wyliesdiesels]

But it's my understanding that the neutral and ground should not be bonded in the subpanel of a detached structure. Am I wrong?

I guess the millions and millions of 3 wire service are suddenly a death sentence.

Reminds me of a picture on this fishing forum where a member was having a house built on the coast in Mexico. There didn't appear to be any grounding at all. But hey........

Thats correct, neutral should only be bonded in one place- the main service panel or first means of disconnect

The existing 3-wire services to detached structures are not "suddenly death sentences."

they actually always had potential for shock or electrocution. It all depends on whether the neutral develops a bad connection. People just didnt know better and the CMPs realized this shock potential so the code changed.

 

[Bert_]

An update FWIW. Got the electrical line from the disconnect to the soon-to-be shop, have it stubbed up. Conduit all the way. On that note let me say that in my opinion 2" conduit is too small to pull 4/0 4/0 2/0 with a #2 ground. I pulled through one section at a time because I had 3 90's and a 45 to get through to get around the concrete parking area. I would have hated to have tried to pull through all that at once.

Pulling one at a time is much harder than all at once unless they run is only a few feet.

I can't count the number of times I've tried to add wire to an existing conduit only to end up pulling it all out, tying on the new wires and pulling it all in together.

 

[misterfixit]

Pulling one at a time is much harder than all at once unless they run is only a few feet.

I can't count the number of times I've tried to add wire to an existing conduit only to end up pulling it all out, tying on the new wires and pulling it all in together.

All 4 wires went at the same time. what I meant was I would have hated to have to pull the entire distance at once, I had about 150', and did one 10' section at a time. Don't think I could have pulled through all the bends and distance.

 

[Bert_]

All 4 wires went at the same time. what I meant was I would have hated to have to pull the entire distance at once, I had about 150', and did one 10' section at a time. Don't think I could have pulled through all the bends and distance.

I see. Technically a code violation but how would anyone know you glued the conduit together around the wire. As long as you didn't go over 360* of bend I don't consider it a huge deal.

No you probably wouldn't do it by hand. Wire pullers are made for the job but there's a lot of equipment that will motivate it pretty well.

 

[b-boy]

I see. Technically a code violation but how would anyone know you glued the conduit together around the wire. As long as you didn't go over 360* of bend I don't consider it a huge deal.

No you probably wouldn't do it by hand. Wire pullers are made for the job but there's a lot of equipment that will motivate it pretty well.

I used a pickup truck, a pulley attached to a joist, and a hitch to 'motivate' mine.

 

[rlitman]

Why is that? I mean that would require some kind of joint or glue failure. That isn't happening in houses with plastic plumbing glued under pressure joints so why in the ground?

Condentation. Even if they're perfectly sealed in the middle, airflow at the ends will allow warm air entering to condense in the cool underground region. Heck, if the ground water table is below the conduit, there's a good change it may remain dryer if it's cracked.

edit:

Conduits fill with water due to condensation. Unlike water pipes that condense on the outside electrical conduits are open to air infiltration along with the humidity in that air. Once cooled underground the humidity condenses.

LOL, I was replying the post on the previous page, never having seen that you beat me to it.

 

[sberry]

If I was gonna run extra conduit so I could add a water line seems I might just run a water line.

 

[My Old Tools]

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. First let me say that I'm not questioning Wylie, just making sure we are using the same terms and speaking of the same things. A pretty good friend of mine has been an electrician for as long as I have known him. He doesn't run a full time business anymore, hey we all get old. He's the one who told me how to do it.

Second, I intend to do it right.

As far as inspections, I don't know what to tell you. There isn't one, I'm not skipping it, or not calling, there is no one to call. Who inspects your television installation?

As for the cable and whether to bury it or not.......it will be as deep as the trencher will put it which should be around 36" deep. I'm also burying a new water line at the same time (have to move my water meter, long story, so new 1500' water line to house. At that point I will also take water to the shop). The area is pretty much rock free, sandy loam.

I fully understand the lack of electrical permit and inspection in Kaufman County. Hunt County was the same. However, when we sold our home in Quinlan, the inspector for the buyer did flag some things that had to be corrected to complete the sale, and our house was built by a current electrical contractor. Go figure.

 

[misterfixit]

I fully understand the lack of electrical permit and inspection in Kaufman County. Hunt County was the same. However, when we sold our home in Quinlan, the inspector for the buyer did flag some things that had to be corrected to complete the sale, and our house was built by a current electrical contractor. Go figure.

Right. And just so everyone is on the same page, there can be inspections when selling as part to the contract. The result of any issues found in that type of inspection is only that the buyer and seller have the option to negotiate the price or make repairs or agree to leave as is. The inspectors are private companies that do real estate inspections. They have no enforcement authority.

As far as permitted and required inspections from an AHJ who enforces codes, that doesn't exist where I am, as I know most here understand.

At least in Kaufman County, the Fire Marshall's Office is the agency who issues permits and requires inspections for commercial buildings in the unincorporated areas of the county. There are none required for residences or buildings not falling under a 'business' or that will be open to the public. The Fire Marshall's Office does do the fire code inspections themselves, as well as the final CO inspection, the mechanical, electrical and plumbing inspections are handled by Bureau Veritas (I believe).

 

[bigdav160]

Plus the "permit" are just acknowledgment of increased property tax appraisals.