Understanding inspection

[koditten]

I just had a private inspection done on a house I have for sale. Unfortunately, I'm 150 miles from there so I have no way to snap a pic or 2.

the question I have is what does the following phase mean. This is the quote on the inpection list and I have no way to contact the inspector to ask for details:

"(main panal) have ground and neutral wires properly seperated."

Can any anyone enlighten me a bit?

I have wired a few panels so I understand the basics.

Many thanks in advance

Kirk

 

[koditten]

I should note the home is around 20 years old.

 

[koditten]

The realator for the potential buyer has that info. I'm stuck at work behind a keyboard.

I get the seperate the 2 different wires part, it says that right in the ****** description.

Seperate from being in contact with each other on the bus, or seperate them to different busses?

I want the thing sold. I want as much info as possible so when I go up there next week to bang out the punch list.

 

[sberry]

It depends on the panel, on a 4 wire sub fed they need to be separate, on a service main if it is the first means of disconnect and fed 3 wire they can land on the neutral bar,,, or a ground bar and the can or box and this bar must be bonded to neutral.

 

[volleyball]

It sound like he was complimenting you on doing it right. It is odd but maybe it is one of his details or there is someone, either bank or government asking that question.

 

[sberry]

The ground wire must in the end land back at neutral main and ideally with 4 wire subs you want the neutral currents running all down insulated wire vs being shared an alternate pathway be it the ground wire or other metallic pathways that may be shared between buildings,,,, gas lines, metal water lines or phone lines.

 

[koditten]

I was kind of wondering if the inspector was thinking this was a sub. I haven't looked at it in about 5 years, but nothing looked any differnt than what I was used to seeing.

Anyways, Cary, Ill be up your way deep into next week if I get this BS work out of the way. I need to stop in for a cup of coffee.

I'll try to find out the inspectors number on monday.

Later

Kirk

 

[sberry]

Cool. I can give you a spin about electric panels if you want.

 

[koditten]

It sound like he was complimenting you on doing it right. It is odd but maybe it is one of his details or there is someone, either bank or government asking that question.

I don't think it was a complement.

In context with the 5 other issues that need dealt with, I think it is something the bank is requiring me to do. The potential new buyer is getting a loan and I think there might not be much down payment money.

I did have issue with them telling me I had to complete the subfloor insulation in the crawl space. The place is hydronicly heated via pex tubes stapled to the bottom of the subfloor. I left strategic sections uninsulated to radiate heat to the domestic water pipes. I would have been easier on my end to insulate it all, but I need some heat down there.

In 10 years I had no freeze ups and the place was stupid cheap to heat year round.

 

[Rock knocker]

You're only required to separate neutral and ground if it's a sub panel.

 

[koditten]

Thats what I thought. I think the inspector is not a true electrition.

This the main and only panel on the place.

A few pics of what we are talking about...if anyone cares Unfortunately non of the panel.

 

[larry_g]

You're only required to separate neutral and ground if it's a sub panel.

I THINK Not true if it is a manufactured home in this state..

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Mustang51js]

The only thing I can think of is the neutral and ground under the same screw,or multiple neutrals under one screw. Around here you can have one nuetral per screw,and two grounds per screw, they won't let you have both under same screw. The inspector is looking at it as it's supposed to be up to today's code. You should be able to leave it or if it's a deal breaker pay someone a couple dollars to move some wires

 

[Bmwsyc]

You're only required to separate neutral and ground if it's a sub panel.

Or if bonding takes place somewhere else, like in the meter socket, or service disconnect if separate from the main panel.

 

[walrus]

I wonder if there is a ground and neutral under the same screw

 

[ForceFed70]

Really weird. Ground and Neutral are required to be bonded at the service entrance (main panel). From the sound of it - he thinks differently.

As others have said - who knows what he's looking at. Could be that neutral and ground busses in the panel were used interchangeably?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If there is a disconnect switch outside with the meter, then that is the "main" and the breaker panel, even though it is the only one, is the "subpanel"

If there is not disconnect or other interruption between the meter and the main breaker in the circuit breaker panel, then it is oK to have have both neutrals and grounds on the same bar, but..... they cannot be under the same screw. The placard on the inside of the panel door will give you torques for the screws, and it will have some thing that tells you "Neutral, (1) #14-#10, *** lb/in" and "Grounds (1 or 2) #14-#10 *** lb/in"

The number of wires (1) or (1 or 2) defines what can be put under one screw.

There are usually extra holes in the back wall of the panel board for threading in self threading machine screws that are used to mount ground bars. Get a ground bar for that brand of panel, install it and move the grounds to it. Cheap and easy and gets the bank off your back.

Charles

 

[madosta]

The only thing I can think of is the neutral and ground under the same screw,or multiple neutrals under one screw. Around here you can have one nuetral per screw,and two grounds per screw, they won't let you have both under same screw. The inspector is looking at it as it's supposed to be up to today's code. You should be able to leave it or if it's a deal breaker pay someone a couple dollars to move some wires

This is what I thought initially when reading the quote.

 

[malibu101]

The only thing I can think of is the neutral and ground under the same screw,or multiple neutrals under one screw. Around here you can have one nuetral per screw,and two grounds per screw, they won't let you have both under same screw. The inspector is looking at it as it's supposed to be up to today's code. You should be able to leave it or if it's a deal breaker pay someone a couple dollars to move some wires

Yep.

What you are saying is the same in my area and always something home inspectors write up if it exists.

 

[RECox286]

If the garage panel is fed from the house panel, then it is a sub-panel,

and must be treated as any other electrical (metal) box such as is used

for switches, receptacles, etc. The neutral wires must be attached to

an isolated, insulated (from the panel chasis) bus bar. All the grounds

need to be attached to a grounded bus bar.

Uncle Bob

 

[Rock knocker]

Yep.

What you are saying is the same in my area and always something home inspectors write up if it exists.

A home inspector shouldn't even open the panel if he doesn't have an electrical license

 

[volleyball]

The seller doesn't have to do anything the bank wants. You can find the cost and now your sale price is that much higher now. If something is worth it to you to facilitate the selling process, you do have that choice.

 

[sberry]

I would like to find out where in the code the word sub panel is used?

 

[koditten]

I'm not an electritian. But I'm pretty sure I never meantioned there being a sub panel. With that I'm starting to get a bit confused.

Sub panel=grounds and neutrals need to be seperate.

Main panel= grounds and neutrals can be together.

Am I inffering correctly?

KO

 

[ForceFed70]

I'm not an electritian. But I'm pretty sure I never meantioned there being a sub panel. With that I'm starting to get a bit confused.

Sub panel=grounds and neutrals need to be seperate.

Main panel= grounds and neutrals can be together.

Am I inffering correctly?

KO

That is correct except that code says "Service Entrance" not "Main Panel". Most of the time your main panel is considered the service entrance, but there are situations as described above where that is not the case.

 

[koditten]

Here is a pic of the panel. Like said earlier, I see neutrals and grounds together.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

It looks like you have only the two hots and the twisted bare ground coming in, so its OK for grounds and neutrals to be on the same BAR, but NOT under the SAME SCREW. A few minutes with a screwdriver will fix that situation.

Put one neutral per screw, nothing else, then put grounds one per screw till you run out, then put two per screw to finish it out if needed.

Charles

 

[porschedude996TT]

First of all, I am not a fan of Home Inspectors. I think they went into the job because they couldn't do the work. (Insert "**** and a hole in the ground" saying here)

I suprised he didn't write up the stairs being too steep.

The panel does look messy to me, but I layout my wiring with nice bends at right angles with little extra wiring lenght. It would take me a 1/2 hour to make it look "Purdy". Since the Ground and neutral are on the same buss, they are bonded together, there is no reason to have all the grounds at one end or separate from the neutrals.

 

[koditten]

I agee, this is a messy panel. I didn't wire it. I did label the breakers, the previous owners writing on the inside of the panel was illegible.

I will have those neutrals and grounds under their own screws by the end of the day.

Thanks for all the comments.

Don't get me started on the home inspector buisiness.

 

[Falcon67]

Having sold a few houses, I'd have told the buyers that unless the inspector sites some specific code violation by section and number reference, I'd not be doing anything. Mumbly messages in an inspection report say "I did a crappy job and got paid anyway".

 

[Rock knocker]

One is not obligated to do any correction noted by a home inspector. The sale may fall thru because the bank may revoke the loan, but that is at the peril of the parties involved

 

[Falcon67]

I'll clarify that an inspection report is usually used as a negotiating tool. A poorly done report is worthless. Last one we had done for a potential purchase, I hired a guy that was an ex builder with current certs. The report had multiple notes including pictures and notations on problems with references to either UBC or NEC. That kind of report with flaws exposed is nearly like pointing a gun at a seller. A good $250 report could be worth $2500 at the table, or get your earnest money returned.