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Unexpected recommendation from insulation installer, thoughts?

c6matt

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I have had several companies quote spray foam insulating my garage, and I got this quote for a hybrid solution wit 3 types of insulation. What are your guys thoughts on this? I had been focusing on straight foam, I hand not thought about using cellulose in the attic/storage area...thoughts? the flash and bat seems like a tested and approved method, I hadn't run across this combo.

Project: Detached Garage

Exterior Walls / Combination of Spray Foam & Fiberglass

1.5” Spray Foam = R-10 + R-13 Fiberglass = R-23

Ceilings / Cellulose

Under Plywood Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-19

Outside Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-38

Note: Baffles and Blockers will be installed between every truss for maximum ventilation
 
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NUTTSGT

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Alot of people use cellulose and are quite happy with it. Personally I hate the stuff and have had to crawl through my share of the ****.

It should work quite well with your project.
 

brewchief

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I wouldn't be afraid of doing it that way.

How about foam on the underside of the storage deck?
 

mrpizza

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My dads newest business in a pole building had 2" of spray foam in it and it will stay 70 degrees without the air running in 85 degree heat.

I should add its about a 40x100 sheet metal skinned pole building and its finished on the inside, 4" smooth concrete slab. About a 25 foot section on the end is a garage but the entire shell was sprayed then the interior walls built out. The wall dividing the garage from the business has r10 foam and drywall separating it.
 
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c6matt

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good to know, the company did offer R21 fiberglass under the storage area floor, I am jut wondering if its enough insulation @ R19 (or 21) because the storage area is 1/3 of the ceiling area. Or if the blown in under the floor would be better due to complete fill, or worse because it could settle over time... also should I worry about the air leaks to the attic? the walls would have foam, but not the ceiling.
 

mikewatson

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i have freinds that built houses that say foam + fibergalss is the way to go . with just foam it echos in the room and you can here more road noise from outside .
 

bczygan

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I have had several companies quote spray foam insulating my garage, and I got this quote for a hybrid solution wit 3 types of insulation. What are your guys thoughts on this? I had been focusing on straight foam, I hand not thought about using cellulose in the attic/storage area...thoughts? the flash and bat seems like a tested and approved method, I hadn't run across this combo.

Project: Detached Garage

Exterior Walls / Combination of Spray Foam & Fiberglass

1.5” Spray Foam = R-10 + R-13 Fiberglass = R-23

Ceilings / Cellulose

Under Plywood Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-19

Outside Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-38

Note: Baffles and Blockers will be installed between every truss for maximum ventilation

Let's look at this a little more closely.

What is the depth of your wall cavity? If it's a 2x4 stud wall them you have a 3 1/2" space. If you use R21 insulation, then you have R21. If you add 1 1/2 inches of spray foam in the cavity, then you reduce the available space for the FG. It then must be compressed and loses R value. So there is no way to get R23 with that combo.

Your numbers are suspect, so the contractor is as well.

Do you have an energy truss?
 

DEnd

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The problem with flash and batt is getting the fiberglass batts installed correctly.

Yes you should be worried about air leaks to the attic, especially if you are heating the place. The "easy" way to solve this is to install osb on the ceiling with primed and taped seams and edges (edges taped to the top plate). then place 2" spacers across the osb to connect the ceiling to. the 2" space can then be used as a wiring chase.

R-19 is low, at least for energy use. If you are not conditioning the space 24/7 however I wouldn't worry too much about it. The big worry if you are only conditioning the space some of the time is creating condensation conditions. I don't know enough about your climate to say if R-19 is enough to combat those conditions or not.
 

yeldogt

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Why are you only spraying the walls?

I have done both full foam and foam and batt -- I did a foam and batt on an addition to my house a couple of years ago --- I have natural gas .. so the smaller increase in the R values with full foam was never going to pay back. A couple of inches of closed cell foam is unbelievable ...... I really think we are going to have different energy guides in the future .. so much of energy savings is stoping air flow ... and fiberglass just does not stop air flow/leaking. The codes are all "R" value based. Closed cell stops the sir leaking

I have nothing other than my experience .. but I would take the 2" of foam over whatever "R" value you can get to fit with fiberglass.

I'm going to do full foam on my next project -- I'm going to be keeping it for a png time and no NG service
 

theoldwizard1

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This insulation contractor knows his stuff. A combination of foam, to fill small gap, and fiberglass/cellulose is probably the most cost effective solution.

I am a little curious about cellulose "Under Plywood Storage Deck". You can apply cellulose "wet" so that it sticks, but it has to be covered (dry wall, OSB, etc) within a few days before it will dry out and fall off.
 
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c6matt

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Thanks for all the responses.

Wizard, I have storage trusses and OSB laid down as a floor, and will be putting up a metal ceiling before they insulate. He is talking about blowing in between the ceiling and storage area floor where he is limited in depth by the 2x6 bottom cord of the truss. I believe all the cellulose is dry .

yeldogt- I have NG, and will be running a 60K BTU overhead radiant tube to heat the garage to 50* full time.

storage area

from bottom

 

kj_mustang

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I would recommend 2" closed cell. I read a scientific study online that I can not find now that found it took a minimum of 2" closed cell to achieve a complete air and moisture block. Plus your installer will have some thickness variations, so requested 2" could end up being 1.5" - 2.5" in areas. My 2" job came out at least 2.5" in most areas.
 
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yeldogt

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I don't understand why you are not spraying the ceiling -- since you are not doing the roof deck -- it will make a huge difference.

I have been away from my studio for two weeks -- I have a new Santa Fe dehumidifier in the space and needed to check out how it was working out .. we have had hot weather recently.

Building was 77 inside -- 1800sf ... The AC has never been turned on this year.
 
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kj_mustang

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It was 94F and sunny on Tuesday and I went to my building around 6:30 pm. The barn has been closed up with no ac on and it was 82 on the second floor. That is with no ceilings or wall covering, just insulation.
 

theoldwizard1

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He is talking about blowing in between the ceiling and storage area floor where he is limited in depth by the 2x6 bottom cord of the truss.

Yep, one of the down sides to trusses. In metro Detroit, to keep heating costs down, you really want 12-18" of insulation in your ceiling !
 

yeldogt

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I can't see having a spray truck show up and not spray the ceiling -- I would do a skim coat and then batts
 

DEnd

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I don't understand why you are not spraying the ceiling -- since you are not doing the roof deck -- it will make a huge difference.

I have been away from my studio for two weeks -- I have a new Santa Fe dehumidifier in the space and needed to check out how it was working out .. we have had hot weather recently.

Building was 77 inside -- 1800sf ... The AC has never been turned on this year.

Since he is using the attic for storage all of the foam must be covered with a thermal barrier, if he weren't using the attic for storage he could just have the foam covered with a spray applied ignition barrier.
 

DEnd

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c6matt you could do a detail like this:
1to9dd.jpg


Basically that's 2x6's across the trusses with the decking on top.

If you don't want to loose that 6" of height then you could put up the decking with some 2x6 blocking where the deck ends in the truss bays (under the decking) to create an enclosed area you can spray foam, that should get you to about the same R-value as the cellulose in the rest of the attic.
 
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c6matt

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thats a neat idea... but space is a preimum. I emailed the company and asked for a price on 1.5" of foam on the ceiling, that would help with the R value, and also make sure the cieling is sealed as tight as the wallls. I have no idea if i should worry about the cieling sealing or not, I could always caulk all of the seams and call it good...thoughts?
 

Beaumont67

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We fully insulated our sunroom, last year...2x6" walls, 2x10" stick framed ceiling & floor crawl space.
The cellulose quote really seemed on the high side (for what it is, recycled paper) / so we installed Roxul bats, ended up cheaper than the shredded paper insulation contractor (there stuff will settle, over time).

There are better reasons to use Roxul over pink:
- easier to work with (for DIY'ers)
- fire proof (I've seen a blow torch running for 5 hours against this stuff at the home depot, and nothing happen to it)
- mold/water resistant (really important in basements)
- a bit better R value than pink for the same thickness
- it's made from recycled materials! Better for the environment
The only negative thing for Roxul is price.
 

yeldogt

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I needed to do 2" to guarantee the dew point .... I did more on the ceiling.

Maybe DEnd has some information on the code interpretation .. I own homes in three different states and they look at the exposed foam differently. Although it is very common to see conditioned attic spaces with HVAC equipment and foam also used for occasional storage .. pull down steps in all of them.

I had a major house fire .. and I will be rebuilding shortly ... the whole house was fully foamed .. the fire started outside .. and the foam did not burn. The fire burned off the wood siding and then onto the wood roof of the modern addition .. eating through the windows. The main house was stone with slate roof and the fire could not get under the deck of the roof because of the foam .... the foam saved the old historic structure -- although it was still heavenly damaged by smoke and water.

In my neck of the woods they are more concerned about the crawlspaces
 

DEnd

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Like I said before yes you should worry about air sealing the ceiling, otherwise you risk rotting your roof, from the inside.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...air-leaks-your-home-your-attic-need-be-sealed

I dislike caulk for the job because the metal will expand, and over time the caulk will fail. you will also have more penetrations if you place any fixtures in the ceiling. The easy way to do it is like I said before and put up a layer of osb or plywood and primer and tape the seams and edges (edges taped to the wall top plate) with a product like Siga-Wigluv air sealing tape. Then put in 2" sleepers to attach the ceiling to, giving you a good space to run your wiring.

The approach is shown in this house:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/homes/passivhaus-budget

You could put spray foam on the ceiling but you need to cover that with a thermal/ignition barrier since you are going to be using your attic for storage. I'm fairly certain that a cover of cellulose won't cut it as a thermal/ignition barrier.

You really need the full R-value over the entire ceiling as well. Honestly I'd like to see you at something like R-60 in your ceiling, and R-40 for your walls.

You could also add the 2x6 on top of the trusses instead of at a 90º angle to them, though you will need to add blocking between them on each side at the ends. I would run which ever option you decide on by your truss manufacturer, as they change how the trusses are loaded in the storage space. The spray foam under the decking with blocking at the bay ends of the decking would be fine without running by the manufacturer.

I think the details I've laid out are just about the least expensive options to do a good job, easily at air sealing. The cheapest option by far is airtight drywall, but that takes skill and attention to detail to perform correctly, and the correct paint.

One other thing that you should consider doing now is adding in a bath fan. It seems counter intuitive to spend all this money and effort to keep air in only to expel it through a fan, but you need ventilation. Garages are full of VOCs and you need a way to get them out. If you weren't insulated they could easily escape and be driven out of your roof vents, but by insulating and doing the required air sealing you almost eliminate air exchange in the garage which will cause them to build up. A bath fan will allow you to ventilate the space reducing the VOC buildup, which will keep you healthier.
 

DEnd

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Maybe DEnd has some information on the code interpretation .. I own homes in three different states and they look at the exposed foam differently. Although it is very common to see conditioned attic spaces with HVAC equipment and foam also used for occasional storage .. pull down steps in all of them.

Just because it is common to see doesn't mean it fits with code. Often code inspectors don't know what the code means. :headscrat Also not every jurisdiction follows the IRC, or the most current version of the IRC.

Since you are going to be rebuilding I highly recommend you read up on Green Building Advisor (also subscribe to their sister magazine Fine Homebuilding). I'd also recommend you get an architect and builder who has experience with building really tight houses (like less than 1 Air Change per Hour at 50 pascals of pressure), unless you live in San Diego... in which case you could live comfortably in a tent...
 
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c6matt

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What was the price of the first estimate?

~4400, so with options

1)4800 with 2" foam walls

2) 5100 with the 2" foam walls and R21 batts under the storage area and the rest the same..

Option 2 is the way I am leaning right now. I know its not how it works, but it would roughly give me an "average" of R30 ceiling and R23 walls....I think its the best I can do without eating up attic storage. :dunno:


Revised Quote
Project: Detached Garage

Exterior Walls / Combination of Spray Foam & Fiberglass

1.5” Spray Foam = R-10 + R-13 Fiberglass = R-23

Ceilings / Cellulose

Under Plywood Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-19

Outside Storage Deck: Cellulose = R-38

Note: Baffles and Blockers will be installed between every truss for maximum ventilation

Price: $4,460.00

Option to increase Spray foam in Exterior walls to 2” Thick+ R-13 Fiberglass = R-26

Add: $400.00

Option (A) to increase Fiberglass under Plywood Storage Deck to R-21 High Density

Add: $350.00

Option (B) to increase Insulation under Plywood Storage Deck to:

1.5” Spray Foam = R-10 + R-13 Fiberglass = R-23

Add: $1,150.00

Note:

* Phase #1: Install Baffles & Blockers AND Insulate under Plywood Storage Deck so you can install ceiling.

* Phase #2: Insulate Walls and balance ceiling with Cellulose.

* All Windows & Doors will be sealed with Low Expanding “No-Warp” foam.
 
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yeldogt

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If it was me I would go with the minimum spray foam over as much as you can ... if the guy who is doing the foam knows what he is doing ... and works in your area and says the 1.5 works .... then I would do this.

I can only tell you that with 2" of foam in my addition .. after they were done we had a heat wave and in was in the 90's for days .... so no AC except what was coming in from the main house and no batts installed ... it was in the high 70's inside the whole building ... including the attic!

The ability of the closed cell foam to stop air movement is a huge part of energy efficiency -- I understand the whole R thing .. maybe it makes more of a difference when it is 110 or -15 out -- but I really think that first 10-15 R of foam is the key.

I would love HUD or some Govt. agency two build two identical houses -- one with 2" foam and the other with as much fiberglass as they can get into it .. and see what house performed better. My guess living in four with foam -- is the foam.

We did not really notice any difference after they installed all the batts -- but I needed the batts for code.
 
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