Ungrounded panel/house outlets

[htmdude57]

My son and gf are thinking about buying a recently remodeled house which was built in the 1920s. He sent me the inspection report, and it says that the 3 prong outlets have open grounds. The photo of the panel shows 2 feeder wires coming in, but I don't see any bare copper leaving the box going outside. Is it possible that an electrician could come and pound a grounding rod outside? Also, it looks like all the wiring leaving the panel is romex, so what are the chances that there are loose grounds in all the outlet boxes which could be wired to the outlet? Should he walk away from this house?

 

[Packard V8]

Two ways of looking at it:

Yes, ungrounded duplex wall outlets have worked satisfactorily in that house for a hundred years. Why would they be unsafe tomorrow?

Yes, run away, run away!! Any electrical component which does not meet the 2023 NEA code is likely to electrocute his entire family and/or burn down the house.

The reality is somewhere in-between. And yes, the owner and the electrician which replaced the original ungrounded two prong wall outlets with three-prong outlets cheaped out. And again, yes, ground wires can be added. It's just time and money.

jack vines

 

[htmdude57]

Just found this: panel was inspected in 1980. I assume this means it passed as existing? I'm guessing that it had 2 prong outlets at that time. So maybe the genius contractor last year changed them to 3 prong outlets so that they would look better? (white instead of black). But I'm also pretty sure that is in violation of code.

 

[htmdude57]

I guess it would be easy to attach the grounds IF there was sufficient wire inside each outlet, but if not, walls have to be opened up.

 

[SlappyWhite]

Local codes may say otherwise, this I cannot say.

You can use GFCI outlets on systems with no ground to provide three prong outlets and have protection. Basically, there is still no ground but if any current is going anywhere other than hot-neutral the outlet trips.

It can get expensive doing it for an entire house.

 

[htmdude57]

It appears from last week's inspection report, that gfci's are present, I'm guessing in bathrooms and kitchen.

 

[Innovate1]

A little hard to see but it looks like the cables leaving the panel includes grounds. It's hard to see what's going on at the red thing on the right side of the panel - is that a wire nut of multiple ground wires? If the cables have a ground wire you need to pull some outlets and see if a ground wire exists there. If so just extend it and hook to the receptacle. I suspect they may have just run the new wire with ground to the first outlet box. You can put a GFCI as the first outlet on each circuit to protect all the outlets downstream that don't have a ground connection.

 

[PCustoms]

I see quite a few pieces of "bare copper", but can't tell from a blurry pic where they go. Depending on requirements, the SE cable may be sufficient (i.e. my PoCo has the ground at the meter).

If your issue is ungrounded outlets, I'd be looking there, not in the panel.

 

[BillK]

If they like the house I certainly would not let this kill the sale. If nothing else they could pull one outlet out and see if there is a ground wire going to it or in the box. That would give them some idea as to what will be needed to make it up to date.

 

[Bert_]

A few of the romex's look old enough they might not have a ground

If the circuits with 3 prong outlets and no ground are GFCI protected then it's all legal and correct. Yes the tester will show "no equipment ground"

If there aren't gfcis then you can easily add them.

 

[yatg]

Unfortunately you don't know what the NM connects to. Its possible a 1920's house could have knob & tube and its been "artfully" (you can't see it) spliced to the NM.

An inspection sticker from 1980?
That yellow NM cable didn't appear until the early 2000s.

If they're really interested in the house they need to get somebody out there to dig deeper.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My son and gf are thinking about buying a recently remodeled house which was built in the 1920s. He sent me the inspection report, and it says that the 3 prong outlets have open grounds. The photo of the panel shows 2 feeder wires coming in, but I don't see any bare copper leaving the box going outside. Is it possible that an electrician could come and pound a grounding rod outside?

No a ground rod/electrode is not the same animal as an EGC. One doesnt take the place of the other.

Also, it looks like all the wiring leaving the panel is romex, so what are the chances that there are loose grounds in all the outlet boxes which could be wired to the outlet? Should he walk away from this house?

Could check the receptacle junction boxes for loose ground wires

 

[htmdude57]

I'm not suggesting that a grounding rod hammered into the ground is INSTEAD of grounds in the outlets. I realize the bare wire screwed to the ground terminal on outlets is needed too. But was just wondering if an electrician would want to "fix" the panel too. I realize that he could run a fat copper line to the water pipe entrance instead of the pounded in rod. Would a good electrician recommend these things?

And, yes, last week's inspector saw some unused knobs in the attic, but reported that he didn't find any knob and tube with live wires.

What it looks like to me is that there is a grounding buss bar along the right side of the breakers, behind where all the wires go into breakers (on the right side breakers). But I don't see any bare copper leaving the panel.

Thanks to everyone for their observations/recommendations. I will pass this along to my son. And ask him if he can get an electrician to look inside outlets, maybe give him a quote for some improvement work.

 

[PCustoms]

But I don't see any bare copper leaving the panel.

Is this a pic copied from a home inspection document?

I see lots of bare copper, some sure looks like it leaves the panel. If you can't get a better pic and/or are unsure of what is there, definitely call an electrician...most home inspectors are not qualified to properly inspect electric.

 

[sparky 1971]

This is my guess based on previous experience. 90% of the devices are going to be connected to the old two wire romex, and someone has decided to "upgrade" and changed the two wire receptacles to three wire. My advice is almost always change them back to two wire with exceptions for computers and TV's with three prong cord cap. Add a ground wire for those if it's reasonably easy to do, if not throw a GFCI on them. As far as the grounding, I can't make the picture big without it getting blurry, but it looks to me like there is a GEC connected to the top left of the neutral bar. Where does it go? It may be going out to a ground rod that's buried. If you can't tell, it won't hurt to plant two more ground rods, connect them with a #6 to the panel. If it has a copper pipe water service, run a #6 to it, connect it to both sides of the meter. If it's a plastic pipe, don't worry about it.

If the house is nice and priced right, the electrical shortcomings are nowhere near a deal breaker. I've seen a whole lot worse and didn't see cause for concern.

 

[Innovate1]

What it looks like to me is that there is a grounding buss bar along the right side of the breakers, behind where all the wires go into breakers (on the right side breakers). But I don't see any bare copper leaving the panel.

There are bare copper wires leaving the panel as part of other cables. There's a really obvious one with heavier wires in the lower left with the bare wire going across the bottom. And it looks like there are others. It looks like a fairly heavy gauge bare wire goes out the top just to the left of the main power feed - maybe to a ground rod or water pipe.

The bus bar on the right side looks to be connected to the bus bar on the left by a strap across the bottom - partly hidden by the breakers and the angle of the photo. That's pretty common. Since this looks to be the first disconnect the neutral and ground wires are all landed on the same bars.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not suggesting that a grounding rod hammered into the ground is INSTEAD of grounds in the outlets. I realize the bare wire screwed to the ground terminal on outlets is needed too. But was just wondering if an electrician would want to "fix" the panel too. I realize that he could run a fat copper line to the water pipe entrance instead of the pounded in rod. Would a good electrician recommend these things?

And, yes, last week's inspector saw some unused knobs in the attic, but reported that he didn't find any knob and tube with live wires.

What it looks like to me is that there is a grounding buss bar along the right side of the breakers, behind where all the wires go into breakers (on the right side breakers). But I don't see any bare copper leaving the panel.

Thanks to everyone for their observations/recommendations. I will pass this along to my son. And ask him if he can get an electrician to look inside outlets, maybe give him a quote for some improvement work.

Not sure what there is to fix. I see what looks like a solid copper wire probably #6, coming from the top of the left neutral bar exiting the panel at the top. It most likely goes to either rods or water pipe…