Unique barn quote 36'x36'

[MTNFRAMER]

Hi
I found this site while doing research for a building for a car collector. I am a 4x4/tool junkie and a GC that 40% of my business is barns, shops etc. Anyhow I got an interesting call from a guy who purchased a 36'x36' pole barn
kit. Normally I price building erection and sub concrete & electric. In todays
economy it is common for home owners to GC there own jobs and self perform what they can and sub what they cannot. This is a great way to save money but not for the timid.lol. Last night I meet with this couple who
are more ambitious than most, they asked me to bid;
1. layout posts
2. set posts
3. install trusses, braces and purlins.
4. sheet roof

Thats it, so when we leave it will look like a semi finished oversize carport.
I have built many ''shell buildings'' .. I spoke with my worry wart attorney &
he has reservations but said it is possible with the right wording in our contract.

I am curious what do y'all think? Good idea or too much liability for both parties?
Steve

 

[Stuart in MN]

So they would put up the tin on the walls, install any doors or windows, pour the slab and install electrical themselves? That's more than I'd want to do on my own, but maybe they have a brother in law who does concrete or something. As long as your contract specifically spells out what you will and won't provide I don't think you have any liability, but I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I dunno....From my point of view, I see no reason to NOT do it. Especially if you need/want the work.
I just finished Self Building a 30x50 garage myself. The only 3 things I paid someone to do were A) Pour & Finish Slab B) Crane Trusses up C) Bend Aluminum Fascia Trim.
It came close to me buying a brake and doing C myself...
When I say I did EVERYTHING, I mean it...even trenching & installing the electricity. BUT I know not everyone has a Mini-Ex sitting in the garage. And the tools required along the way to pull it off.

 

[larry_g]

Why would sign on to take any responsibility? Do the job as a laborer for the owner and put all the onus of the quality of work on him. At that point your just dumb labor with no responsibility/liability.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

they asked me to bid;
1. layout posts
2. set posts
3. install trusses, braces and purlins.
4. sheet roof

Thats it, so when we leave it will look like a semi finished oversize carport.


I am curious what do y'all think? Good idea or too much liability for both parties?
Steve

That's exactly how my Dad did his 40 x 64 pole barn - save money where the work is easy - my brothers and I helped do siding and everything else after the GC left. The GC who did his part had no problem with it....other than being a jackass who tried to add-on an equipment rental fee to lift the roof trusses AFTER his usual forklift broke down....buy that's another topic.....

 

[MTNFRAMER]

So they would put up the tin on the walls, install any doors or windows, pour the slab and install electrical themselves? That's more than I'd want to do on my own, but maybe they have a brother in law who does concrete or something. As long as your contract specifically spells out what you will and won't provide I don't think you have any liability, but I'm not a lawyer.

My advisor recommends completeing the roof. The guy wants to
do it himself and is leaning towards comp shingles which I would just sub
anyhow.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

I dunno....From my point of view, I see no reason to NOT do it. Especially if you need/want the work.
I just finished Self Building a 30x50 garage myself. The only 3 things I paid someone to do were A) Pour & Finish Slab B) Crane Trusses up C) Bend Aluminum Fascia Trim.
It came close to me buying a brake and doing C myself...
When I say I did EVERYTHING, I mean it...even trenching & installing the electricity. BUT I know not everyone has a Mini-Ex sitting in the garage. And the tools required along the way to pull it off.

Dave
Nice looking building I am sure you saved $$$$ and the job was done right.
Steve

 

[MTNFRAMER]

That's exactly how my Dad did his 40 x 64 pole barn - save money where the work is easy - my brothers and I helped do siding and everything else after the GC left. The GC who did his part had no problem with it....other than being a jackass who tried to add-on an equipment rental fee to lift the roof trusses AFTER his usual forklift broke down....buy that's another topic.....

HMD
Did your Dad finish the shell quickly? This is a concern of mine, his shipping date is before the holidays.. Overall was it worth your dads time and effort?
Unapproved change order AFTER starting the job. lol
Steve

 

[sublimate]

Sub the roofing back to the owner - with the appropriate markup, of course.
...then fire him from the job if he takes too long.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

I decided to go ahead and give him a price. More details if I get the job with pictures to follow.
Steve

 

[MTNFRAMER]

I dunno....From my point of view, I see no reason to NOT do it. Especially if you need/want the work.
I just finished Self Building a 30x50 garage myself. The only 3 things I paid someone to do were A) Pour & Finish Slab B) Crane Trusses up C) Bend Aluminum Fascia Trim.
It came close to me buying a brake and doing C myself...
When I say I did EVERYTHING, I mean it...even trenching & installing the electricity. BUT I know not everyone has a Mini-Ex sitting in the garage. And the tools required along the way to pull it off.

Dave I see you used the zip system did you like it?

 

[Spudland_Dave]

HMD
Did your Dad finish the shell quickly? This is a concern of mine, his shipping date is before the holidays.. Overall was it worth your dads time and effort?
Unapproved change order AFTER starting the job. lol
Steve

If time is a concern, I'd suggest to him it may not be the best idea....I started the slab in the beginning of July, to this day I still cant park in it because of all the tools & materials in the way (you know what this weekend's project is..) this Spring I drove by one which was "professionally" built which was 28x44 if I had to guess and it was up and done in a single week.

Dave
Nice looking building I am sure you saved $$$$ and the job was done right.
Steve

Thanks...I saved 1/2, My dad had said to take whatever materials I had and double it for an "installed cost" and he was pretty much on the money. Had a real deal builder here Tuesday to do the Aluminum Fascia and I had asked him for a quote and he pretty much confirmed my dad's number. I sure saved $$, but I havent sat down and enjoyed a single weekend this summer. Trust me, I'm not complaining...but just sayin. Wife has to be on board as well...

Dave I see you used the zip system did you like it?

LOVED it. Sooo much better the installing Typar/Tyvek and then chasing tears and blows all summer. I went Zip for 2 reasons..First being cost...virtually the same cost after the current 3.00/sheet rebate (I bought mine before the OSB price spike this summer) and I'd argue a better/simpler/easier product. Secondly, because this was an owner build, I KNEW it wouldnt be roofed and sided within days of erection. ZIP is 100% protected when taped up for 180 days I believe. I had a weathertite shell instantly.
From a labor perspective (if I was a real deal GC) I'd use it just for the labor savings. Much quicker to just go around and tape up seams vs rolling on Typar/Tyvek and Roofing Felt.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

If time is a concern, I'd suggest to him it may not be the best idea....I started the slab in the beginning of July, to this day I still cant park in it because of all the tools & materials in the way (you know what this weekend's project is..) this Spring I drove by one which was "professionally" built which was 28x44 if I had to guess and it was up and done in a single week.

He is a sledhead with a cabin near Tahoe, so my concern is fresh powder and the top heavy structure sits in the wind and rain too long


Thanks...I saved 1/2, My dad had said to take whatever materials I had and double it for an "installed cost" and he was pretty much on the money. Had a real deal builder here Tuesday to do the Aluminum Fascia and I had asked him for a quote and he pretty much confirmed my dad's number. I sure saved $$, but I havent sat down and enjoyed a single weekend this summer. Trust me, I'm not complaining...but just sayin. Wife has to be on board as well...

Your dads rule of thumb is pretty accurate ""when times are good""



LOVED it. Sooo much better the installing Typar/Tyvek and then chasing tears and blows all summer. I went Zip for 2 reasons..First being cost...virtually the same cost after the current 3.00/sheet rebate (I bought mine before the OSB price spike this summer) and I'd argue a better/simpler/easier product. Secondly, because this was an owner build, I KNEW it wouldnt be roofed and sided within days of erection. ZIP is 100% protected when taped up for 180 days I believe. I had a weathertite shell instantly.
From a labor perspective (if I was a real deal GC) I'd use it just for the labor savings. Much quicker to just go around and tape up seams vs rolling on Typar/Tyvek and Roofing Felt.

I have been wanting to try, glad to hear you liked it

 

[IHI]

When times are tough people wanted us to bid aspects of jobs as well. initally i would depending on scope, but as time wore on it seems the requests got more ridiculous so i just started telling them we were'nt interested. most of the time it would've required us to come back to the job site 3 or 4 seperate times, doing the same tooling set's up/clean up's...just did'nt make any sense.

In a case like yours, so long as "walls" are braced 6 ways to sunday, you'll have 1 set up and one, about as good as it gets as sparatic aspect jobs go. it's when you have to make multiple trips back and forth, time lost for travel and set up....that is when you walk away since your margin goes away in a big hurry.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

When times are tough people wanted us to bid aspects of jobs as well. initally i would depending on scope, but as time wore on it seems the requests got more ridiculous so i just started telling them we were'nt interested. most of the time it would've required us to come back to the job site 3 or 4 seperate times, doing the same tooling set's up/clean up's...just did'nt make any sense.

In a case like yours, so long as "walls" are braced 6 ways to sunday, you'll have 1 set up and one, about as good as it gets as sparatic aspect jobs go. it's when you have to make multiple trips back and forth, time lost for travel and set up....that is when you walk away since your margin goes away in a big hurry.

So true IHI. The reason this may work out both ways is I have one trip AND if I am too busy I can squeeze it on a weekend or between two jobs if needed.
I will be honest this is a very practical DIY, if I completed the roof the danger for the DIY drops dramatically. On a side note I may design and install the rebar for a oil change pit for his snowmobiles with or without the project

 

[IHI]

So true IHI. The reason this may work out both ways is I have one trip AND if I am too busy I can squeeze it on a weekend or between two jobs if needed.
I will be honest this is a very practical DIY, if I completed the roof the danger for the DIY drops dramatically. On a side note I may design and install the rebar for a oil change pit for his snowmobiles with or without the project

They still allow you to do pits? They outlawed them here years ago due to the heavy flammable vapors traveling and seeking the lowest point creating a bomb oven for lack of better terms, and of course insurance companies jumped on board and said they would refuse any coverage if pit was installed due to it's accelerant design. then they also attacked the fact of injury of vehicles falling into pit, people becoming trapped, etc.. so many businesses and residents that came into garages with a pit had no choice but to fill them in. might want to do some research on the issue so if something ever did happen you dont spend your time/money wrapped up in court and attorney visits since you were the GC that designed/installed the pit....the attorney for the HO will instantly say the HO was not educated and trusted you since this is what you do for a living and will try to put you at fault for the problems/damage repair if anything should happen.


just food for thought, but if the state/town allows it, your insurance covers your *** if things go south then obviously it will get bid, but as sue happy as america has become, it might be a wiser descion to just wash your hands completely from this aspect and let the HO find some hack with a truck and a saw that is willing to roll the dice.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

When times are tough people wanted us to bid aspects of jobs as well. initally i would depending on scope, but as time wore on it seems the requests got more ridiculous so i just started telling them we were'nt interested. most of the time it would've required us to come back to the job site 3 or 4 seperate times, doing the same tooling set's up/clean up's...just did'nt make any sense.

In a case like yours, so long as "walls" are braced 6 ways to sunday, you'll have 1 set up and one, about as good as it gets as sparatic aspect jobs go. it's when you have to make multiple trips back and forth, time lost for travel and set up....that is when you walk away since your margin goes away in a big hurry.

I'm not a GC by trade...but how do you guys price things out? Sounds like set bid? This type of job I'd do hourly...1 trip or 15 trips...not gonna "cost you nuttin". 'Round here most carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc are all hourly. ESPECIALLY on weird jobs. I think the only time you'll get a set bid is on building the entire structure utilzing a GC. Even then...when we built this place, alot of things were priced/quoted hourly or for "** hours" for example...I had them forget about building the back deck and spending that time doing some other things we wanted in the kitchen.

It may be nice to want to do the whole shootin match, but it seems like those "all or nothing" guys are hurtin these days, while the "customer gets what they want" ones are busier then heck and all have new trucks..

 

[MTNFRAMER]

Thanks for the tip on the oil change pit.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

I'm not a GC by trade...but how do you guys price things out? Sounds like set bid? This type of job I'd do hourly...1 trip or 15 trips...not gonna "cost you nuttin". 'Round here most carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc are all hourly. ESPECIALLY on weird jobs. I think the only time you'll get a set bid is on building the entire structure utilzing a GC. Even then...when we built this place, alot of things were priced/quoted hourly or for "** hours" for example...I had them forget about building the back deck and spending that time doing some other things we wanted in the kitchen.

It may be nice to want to do the whole shootin match, but it seems like those "all or nothing" guys are hurtin these days, while the "customer gets what they want" ones are busier then heck and all have new trucks..

Dave I used an hourly formula and gave him a hard bid with stipulations. Unfortunately I had a nice long project put off indefinately so passing up
any work is not an option today, next week things could change.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Dave I used an hourly formula and gave him a hard bid with stipulations. Unfortunately I had a nice long project put off indefinately so passing up
any work is not an option today, next week things could change.

I think thats where being in a different location with different "ways of doing business" changes my point of view. For example, my aluminum fascia this past Tuesday...he came on a Sunday AM to take a look at the job and give me a quote (he admitted to me that he came because when I said I had built it myself, he didnt know what to expect)....Luckily when he came, he spent 2 hours less then he thought and things went very good all around, I wrote a check for 150.00 less the originally quoted. Had it gone the other way...I could very well have written a check for 150.00 more.
I was just happy that a genuine carpenter gave me a pat on the back for the work I did.

 

[cyamaha2007]

Pole barns a pretty easy. I just finished my 36x56x14h. My fiancee and i did everything except finishing the floor and putting on garage doors. My labor cost was less than 1000 bucks. I think any able bodied couple could complete a job like that. Heck there is a 70yr old couple building a large post and beam barn by hand.

 

[IHI]

I'm not a GC by trade...but how do you guys price things out? Sounds like set bid? This type of job I'd do hourly...1 trip or 15 trips...not gonna "cost you nuttin". 'Round here most carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc are all hourly. ESPECIALLY on weird jobs. I think the only time you'll get a set bid is on building the entire structure utilzing a GC. Even then...when we built this place, alot of things were priced/quoted hourly or for "** hours" for example...I had them forget about building the back deck and spending that time doing some other things we wanted in the kitchen.

It may be nice to want to do the whole shootin match, but it seems like those "all or nothing" guys are hurtin these days, while the "customer gets what they want" ones are busier then heck and all have new trucks..

I literally had to LOL at the "new truck" part...I've been in this game since I was knee high, growing up in construction with my grandfather, and spent 20yrs with my own residential construction business....I'm not going to bore you with the stories of all the "new trucks" i've seen with lettering that come...and go EVERY YEAR...read into that and take it for what it's worth, but I would never have been able to grow my business if i had new truck/insurance payments...all that is less money that could be reinvested into my business..mainly tooling upgrades/replacements/new for new aspects we would take on. Just like snow removal, we did that for 20yrs as well, and just like the new construction companies popping up and going every year, plowing was full of new trucks/and new plows on the road at first snow fall...oddly enough, we traveled the same routes to all our accounts, and oddly enough by mid winter you never saw those new trucks and new plows doing the lots you passed by on the first storm.

Which leads into what did I charge to stay operational. I was a 100% licsenced and legit business, workers all covered by proper insurance, all got W2's. I tracked every expense since I started my business so I always knew what to expect as a general operating cost....which I then was able to turn into a daily average. When we were busy, I only had a 3 man crew plus myself, it cost me $600/day to break even, meaning I made zero profit, it just covered overhead. As with anything, you have good days, REALLY good days, bad days, and REALLY bad days...but everything is an average. Could we put in 1 entry door per day and stay open, no...i would've lost $400/day. BUT, these small jobs were used as fillers between delays on large jobs, to keep my guys busy, stay in the public eye, and typically lead to more work down the road...

Bidding work is different for everybody, there is no secret I'm holding out on telling, but locations vary the cost since permitting is based differently, scope of work varies, duration of project, materials on project...sadly unless a homeowner owns a business/previously owned a business there is no way to convey what goes into a bid/proposal. I had set overhead to factor in, and I could'nt stay open without a profit even though 90% of HO's want you to lose your *** for them on their project...just one of many reasons I finally closed the doors. We did alot of insurance work, which requires line items on bids, i carried that over for HO bids, won alot of jobs just because of the fact the HO could see where every penny they were about to trust me with went to vs a "it's going to cost $**,*** for this" take it or leave it.

I hate being sold to, you cannot imagine unless you have a business, how many times the phone blows up all day with sales pukes trying to push junk on you, how many times these pukes would stop by my jobsite to sell ****...so when I did my sit down with homies to go over the proposal, I did'nt sell, I explained and also explained that was the price WE needed to perform the job, it is priced fairly, and if it's out of your budget we can find places to make cuts in scope or lower material quality, but the labor is what it is and I cannot change that.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I literally had to LOL at the "new truck" part...I've been in this game since I was knee high, growing up in construction with my grandfather, and spent 20yrs with my own residential construction business....

I know where your coming from and see what your saying, I didnt mean to ruffle your feathers...I have the pleasure of working with various contractors in my job, so its not my first day at the rodeo...what I meant with the new truck thing was more a figure of speech then anything.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

IHI
Really well put. I am lucky to have low overhead
and a working spouse with bennies.
Steve

 

[IHI]

I know where your coming from and see what your saying, I didnt mean to ruffle your feathers...I have the pleasure of working with various contractors in my job, so its not my first day at the rodeo...what I meant with the new truck thing was more a figure of speech then anything.

Alot depends on the market your targeting. If your the handyman type, work alone, zero overhead persay, you can make a pretty good living at that and small projects...on the flip side, I was very passive until my last 5 years at watching all these unlicesenced guys doing work and charging high rate...so, i got very proactive and calling in every address that had work being performed with unnamed truck and no permit hanging...sure these guys were picking the low hanging fruit, but I literally spent thousands to get licsenced, spent over ten grand a year for proper insuances to protect me and the homeowners...so after talking with more local contractors we decided to try and make life harder on the jacklegs by ratting them out every chance we had...trying to level the playing feild and make them and the homeowners more accountable.

I got so tired of hearing and still do get so tired of hearing the porr me pity party so many HO's cry about getting screwed over, crappy job was done, etc...and in about 99.9% of the cases it boiled down to them using the cheapest bid they could get....but you wont hear that side of the story because people wont intentionally make themselves look out to be the fool, it's easier to one side the story and say that contractors are the hacks...which leads to people not trusting us that take pride in what we do and critque our job worse than you or any HO ever could...I figured if it passes my expectations, HO will be happy; and truth be told I did lose money tearing stuff apart or redoing something I did'nt figure in if I saw it would make better sense, look better/function better for the customer......that is the difference between low bid and mid-to high bid. Low bid does bare minimum and does'nt care so long as the check cashes, I realize my name was on your home long after you sell it, so it was a must, not an option to do good work.

 

[IHI]

IHI
Really well put. I am lucky to have low overhead
and a working spouse with bennies.
Steve

That is exactly how I got my start. Once i granduated HS and could focus full time on construction with gramps, I quickly got bored of the same types of jobs over and over. I wanted to do more, he was older and content. So started doing more side jobs, and then officially broke away and went on my own...1 man, 1 truck, jobs that I could easily attack alone...then I started bidding work that lead to jobs i needed a hand or so for a day or two, then that lead to bidding jobs I needed a full time guy, then 2 full time guys...so on and so forth.

the bad part with getting away from 1 man and 1 truck- overhead and babysitting, took me 15yrs to get the small crew I had I could trust with my attention to detail/make sure things were done right once, the first time since call backs took time away from a current project and dug directly into profits from that job at that time. As I was told from the old timers, "you either have to stay a one man show or go big...in this line of work financially it does'nt work being in the middle". Was'nt until I was smack dab in the middle did i understand it LOL, you have the big boy bills with legal overhead/operating expenses, but dont continually have the big boy jobs to carry it. i made it work for alot of years by doing good work that justified my higher bids, was always told I was never the highest bid, but I was up there. So there is a market for customers that are willing to pay more, but it's a much smaller market, i needed jobs we would be at 1-2 months at a time, and in '08 is when we started to see a decline in calls coming in, smaller scopes of work- banks got caught over valuing property for equity loans giving away fake money, so when that stablized, folks were either upside down on their mortgauge or did'nt have enough equity to do what they originally called us for in the first place.

I hung on until '10, but jan '10 i told the guys to start looking for other jobs because things just are'nt coming in for me to cover the expense and i can only go backwards to a point...had been going backwards slowly to this point over that 2 yr span. My guys had families, so I kept them doing "busy work", even around my place so they could make a paycheck, and luckily my last guy finally got a job and I was $28K in the red at that point (combination of small jobs, then jobs that would break us even or give a push, but always making sure my men had checks to take care of their family.) 2yrs later I'm still paying off that lice of credit at the bank that carried them, and everybody calls me stupid for carrying them until they got a job, but I know what it's like during hard times, and wanted to make sure i did everything possible to take care of the guys that helped grow my business. It was a bad business practice, but I sleep good knowing I did what I could for them, and to this day if I need a hand, any of them will drop what they're doing and jump on board.

So stay small, but legit if you can..less headaches and any problems you only have yourself to blame LOL. Stinks with the limited types of work, but trust me, looking back, those were the easy days Now I'm a machinest in a union shop and I hate it, I like the work, always loved learning/trying new things, but the employee's are terrible. 30-50yr old toddlers that cry their asses off about any and everything, dont expect them to work, that might make them sweat, and they dont get paid to sweat The funny part, I'm the bad guy because I do my job and do what my supervisor/ops manager ask of me...I've been told to say no, refuse to do what I'm told, but ethically I cant, just not wired that way. My advice, if your self-employeed and finally throw in the towel, stay away from a union shop, you will fit in like oil and water, it's digsuting to see such a large group of people that do nothing, act like they do everyting, and get paid extremely well to do nothing, well, 30% effiecencey anyways, but hopefully you get my point LOL. They are completely disconnected from the real world, esspecially the guys that have had no other job BUT this union gig.

 

[MTNFRAMER]

IHI
I took a different path I worked for years as a carpenter then foreman then superintendent with a GC, I left corporate construction because I was on the road 300 days a year and my family felt like a stranger. I rarely miss my sons
baseball,football and basketball games + I am no longer expected to work 70 hours a week.
SC