Universal Socket Set Missing Sizes

[thwaller]

I have seen a few threads mentioning these missing sizes, but my question here is does anyone know WHY these sizes are skipped?

Sets:
1. Craftsman 9pc. 3/8" Drive Universal Metric Socket Set
https://www.sears.com/craftsman-9-piece-metric-universal-socket-accessory-set/p-00902496000P
2. Craftsman 9-piece Inch Universal Socket Accessory Set
https://www.sears.com/craftsman-9-piece-inch-universal-socket-accessory-set/p-00924959000P

Lowes carries Kobalt sets mirroring this, so this is not really specific to Craftsman. Specifically, when you look at the metric set, it is missing the 12 and 15 mm. I included the Inch set as they might be implying to use them instead, but there is no inch socket included that is equiv enough to a 15mm, so I question that idea here.

It appears Craftsman in the past did carry the 12 and 15 mm socket for sale individually, but on the Sears site now they will show as not there, or if you can find the link it shows as currently unavailable. It seems there is some reason for this that I obviously am failing to recognize.

 

[gatlibs]

It is probably the same manufacturer. Some like to buy sets without the sizes which the buyers don't come across much. I don't and 15mm is a size that I find either way. The manufacturer is likely the same for both brands. The skips we're likely to make the two sets have an equal # of pieces.

 

[mudflap]

Those are spline drive..not really universal.. A great deal at that price, even with the skips. Some spline drives fit better than others..those fit good.. i use them at home ..

 

[Sevenhills1952]

There are good eBay sellers I've bought from recently who sell individual Craftsman sockets and tools.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[thwaller]

Thanks for the replies and information. What I am most curious about is why the 12 and 15mm are not even available for individual purchase anymore? The sizes are not only skipped, but not even available. There must be some sort of logic to completely remove sizes from availability.

It might make sense, as it does appear that Kobalt and Craftsman use the same manufacturer, that the 12 and 15mm are simily not used in the COO. But referencing here:
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/metric-bolt-head-size.aspx
JIS does list 12mm while the 15mm is not listed on any. But even with that logic, the set does include a 9mm which is also not used on any of those lists and seen far less than a 15mm (at least as it relates to my applications).

I also agree it is a great price right now. My concern is that it appears there is no support for that drive system as sizes have already been cut from availability ... vs other brands that still offer full sets and all sizes individually.

EDIT:

Those are spline drive..not really universal.. A great deal at that price, even with the skips. Some spline drives fit better than others..those fit good.. i use them at home ..

Yes I agree, those are really a spline drive. Universal sockets is simply the name/title they are sold under/as... and is quite confusing at first.

 

[bwringer]

I think this is just one of those things that's destined to remain a mystery. It doesn't make any sense. I've seen sockets manufactured in Asia that skip sizes that aren't used in JIS, like 11, 13, 15, and 16. And I've seen European sockets that skip 12 and 14. But never an inexplicable combination of skips in one set like this.

Of course, I think that may explain why it's on sale. No one bought this set because it's mostly useless, and now they're trying to unload a bunch of them to clueless people buying **** for Dad.

Craftsman has a tradition going back many years of putting out the most ridiculous gimmick tools around the holidays for unaware children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, and spouses to buy as gifts for hapless handymen. Useless "universal" sockets and wrenches of all descriptions, dogbone wrenches, spline drive stuff, ridiculous multipurpose tools, etc.


But... since these use that doofy sloppy spline drive, there's an outside chance that the theory is that the 13mm will also work on 12mm fasteners, and perhaps the 16mm (or 5/8") will turn a 15mm...?

 

[thwaller]

I think this is just one of those things that's destined to remain a mystery. It doesn't make any sense. I've seen sockets manufactured in Asia that skip sizes that aren't used in JIS, like 11, 13, 15, and 16. And I've seen European sockets that skip 12 and 14. But never an inexplicable combination of skips in one set like this.

Of course, I think that may explain why it's on sale. No one bought this set because it's mostly useless, and now they're trying to unload a bunch of them to clueless people buying **** for Dad.

Craftsman has a tradition going back many years of putting out the most ridiculous gimmick tools around the holidays for unaware children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, and spouses to buy as gifts for hapless handymen. Useless "universal" sockets and wrenches of all descriptions, dogbone wrenches, spline drive stuff, ridiculous multipurpose tools, etc.


But... since these use that doofy sloppy spline drive, there's an outside chance that the theory is that the 13mm will also work on 12mm fasteners, and perhaps the 16mm (or 5/8") will turn a 15mm...?

I agree totally on Craftsman and gimmicks. Do you feel the spline drive is a gimmick tool? I am honestly unsure myself. It is also offered in the tool truck brands, which makes me think it is not so much gimmick, but one can argue that the whole tool truck is a gimmick. But I have worked as a DIY for 20+ years and never needed or used a spline drive... so in that sense I could see it as a gimmick as well.

Your comment on the sizes being skipped is exactly my confusion. There is no clear logic. I see a lot of 9, 11, 15, 16, 18 type skips, but skipping (and being not available period) a 12mm is a new one for me. For me a 12mm is a common socket, one I would never leave behind in my box.

EDIT: I do also see that Lowes sells the missing sizes and more that Craftsman no longer offers. Although their sets, Kobalt brand, skip the same sizes, you can still get them at least.

 

[mudflap]

How much support do you need for a $5 socket set..? I think spline drive is here to stay..not a gimmic.. The quality ones grip a fastner better than a 12pt socket..but obviously not as good as a 6pt. They feel a little sloppy because they need more rotation to grip farther back on the flats. I wasnt sure about them at first either...but used them enough now on crusty bolts/heavy equipment to give them a thumbs up.. I hate the skips too, and your "pro" tool companies dont do that, the weekend warrior brands do it to save a buck..and hope driveway dave wont notice until 6 months later...when he needs that size.. I was just saying for the quality/fit/price on those..its a no brainer..

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

because 15/32 and 19/32 fasteners are obsolete, but they haven't yet realised SAE is also obsolete.

 

[thwaller]

How much support do you need for a $5 socket set..? I think spline drive is here to stay..not a gimmic.. The quality ones grip a fastner better than a 12pt socket..but obviously not as good as a 6pt. They feel a little sloppy because they need more rotation to grip farther back on the flats. I wasnt sure about them at first either...but used them enough now on crusty bolts/heavy equipment to give them a thumbs up.. I hate the skips too, and your "pro" tool companies dont do that, the weekend warrior brands do it to save a buck..and hope driveway dave wont notice until 6 months later...when he needs that size.. I was just saying for the quality/fit/price on those..its a no brainer..

Let me explain, because at face value, I agree with you....
First, my initial query is more as to WHY there is no 12 and 15mm socket in the set, and in addition, the 12 and 15mm socket is not even available for purchase. The fact that it is not even an option is the main point there. The 12 is avail in 1/4 and the 15 avail in 1/2, but not in the 3/8 while the immediate surrounding sizes are. And as pointed out above by Ole Slewfoot, there really is no SAE options or alternatives in play here.. metric sets really need to be complete as the primary measuring system has shifted. Unless the implication is that 12 and 15mm are sizes are obsolete along with the SAE.

But to the point of support ... this metric set is $5.80. Then to get the 12 and 15 from Lowes, that is ~$8 more for each.We are now at a ~$25 set. At $25, the deal aspect sort of disappears, and this is the sort of thing Craftsman/Sears is known for. Get you in cheap and charge you thrice the cost of each missing piece. But to your point, I believe you are simply stating that for the price, it is just random sockets to toss in the box that will likely have a use. To my point, I am still without a set, and left unable to make a set. This was not the intent of my query, but I was in fact looking at possible purchase so it is relevant.

 

[thwaller]

Having said that... estate sales are packed with SAE. 90% of your socket budget should be for metric. I would say that tap and die and wrenches should be the same. There is a TON of cheap SAE out there.

Sears also has been doing huge markdowns on SAE sets while leaving the metric sets at regular price or a few dollar markdown only. As it relates here, the 1/4 drive inch set is cheap, the metric is basically full price.

 

[Tonyuk]

Spline drive is certainly no gimmick. It grips better than any 12 point I've used.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Thanks for the replies and information. What I am most curious about is why the 12 and 15mm are not even available for individual purchase anymore? The sizes are not only skipped, but not even available. There must be some sort of logic to completely remove sizes from availability.

It might make sense, as it does appear that Kobalt and Craftsman use the same manufacturer, that the 12 and 15mm are simily not used in the COO. But referencing here:
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/metric-bolt-head-size.aspx
JIS does list 12mm while the 15mm is not listed on any. But even with that logic, the set does include a 9mm which is also not used on any of those lists and seen far less than a 15mm (at least as it relates to my applications).

I also agree it is a great price right now. My concern is that it appears there is no support for that drive system as sizes have already been cut from availability ... vs other brands that still offer full sets and all sizes individually.

EDIT:

Yes I agree, those are really a spline drive. Universal sockets is simply the name/title they are sold under/as... and is quite confusing at first.

Check ebay...I found this in less than a minute...

K Tool 20712 Chrome Spline Socket 3/8" Drive 12mm
Brand New
$5.96  18% off
Buy It Now
Trending at $7.25
Free Shipping
Free Returns

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[Sevenhills1952]

K Tool 20715 Chrome Spline Socket 3/8" Drive 15mm
Brand New
$6.76
Buy It Now
Free Shipping
Free Returns

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[shanny19]

but one can argue that the whole tool truck is a gimmick. .

Quoted for posterity.
That deserved to be in a much less obscure thread than this one, alas.

 

[thwaller]

K Tool 20715 Chrome Spline Socket 3/8" Drive 15mm
Brand New
$6.76
Buy It Now
Free Shipping
Free Returns

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

I am aware I can get the sizes in other brands, like Kobalt as another example. I was more referring to the lack of availability from Craftsman. I find it strange that they do not even offer the sizes. I mention Kobalt as I would likely get that brand due to them being the same design, look and likely even same manufacturer.

 

[thwaller]

Spline drive is certainly no gimmick. It grips better than any 12 point I've used.

I ended up getting the 3/8 inch and metric sets, and the 1/4 inch set. Those are the ones on super sale. In regard to that portion of the post, statements from those here like this got me to just get them and ask questions later.

At a worst case, I can fill in gaps with Kobalt and RE Craftsman, if spline drive is here to stay, I would assume SB&D Craftsman will have the same product to carry on at some point. Not only is faith in Sears gone due to business troubles, the removal of common sizes in the entire product offering is not so reassuring of the specific product line.

 

[CBassB]

One possible explanation is the ISO system (International Organization for Standardisation). Since it’s « international » it might be their baseline. And pretend that everything is built with ISO fasteners there is no need for a 12mm or 15mm socket. 6mm bolt=10mm socket, 8mm bolt=13mm socket, 10mm bolt=16mm socket.

It’s not very useful, because many standards are used, and parts are made for special purposes, they are not your standard nuts and bolts, so the need for 12 and 15 does arise.

S

 

[mudflap]

One possible explanation is the ISO system (International Organization for Standardisation). Since it’s « international » it might be their baseline. And pretend that everything is built with ISO fasteners there is no need for a 12mm or 15mm socket. 6mm bolt=10mm socket, 8mm bolt=13mm socket, 10mm bolt=16mm socket.

It’s not very useful, because many standards are used, and parts are made for special purposes, they are not your standard nuts and bolts, so the need for 12 and 15 does arise.

S

15mm is common for bicycle axle nuts.

 

[thwaller]

15mm is common for bicycle axle nuts.

and oil drain plugs, like Ford for example.

 

[thwaller]

My GM has a 15mm oil drain plug.

Apparently Craftsman does not see oil changes as something people would be doing. There are much more uses for the 11 and 9mm sockets [sarcasm and much of it].

 

[5ktq]

Yeah, it goes back to competing metric standards.

Germans basically never used 12mm, it's pretty rare. japan loved it, for example.

 

[Tonyuk]

German vehicles mostly use ISO, torx & spline.

10,13,16,18,21 etc.. are very common sizes. 11 for brake bleeders, 14 for flare fittings, 19 for drain plugs (amongst others)

 

[finn]

So the conclusion must be is that Sears is going with leading edge technology rather than retro technology in determining which sockets to include in these kits.

It’s all clear, now.

 

[Nineeightyone]

Is it possible that it's simply because of "close enough" sizes, i.e. where a 13mm can be used on a 1/2" fastener head? Or maybe I misunderstood the OP.

 

[IdahoMan]

I'd like to know where there is a complete list of all driver types and sizes. Seems many of the lists out there don't list them all.

 

[5ktq]

German vehicles mostly use ISO, torx & spline.

10,13,16,18,21 etc.. are very common sizes. 11 for brake bleeders, 14 for flare fittings, 19 for drain plugs (amongst others)

That's true now, but before they.. harmonized, older DIN things (eg 80's cars and probably near current german/swiss industrial stuff?) used 17/19 over 16/18.

Back then I always wondered why dad's no-skip wrench set had 16/18, as I'd never seen a matching fastener in my life.

 

[thwaller]

That's true now, but before they.. harmonized, older DIN things (eg 80's cars and probably near current german/swiss industrial stuff?) used 17/19 over 16/18.

Back then I always wondered why dad's no-skip wrench set had 16/18, as I'd never seen a matching fastener in my life.

This is why skipped sizes like this really get to me, things do change. I have learned that if you work on cars for long enough, you will need all of the sizes. But if you are buying for a single car or just cars you are likely to buy, skips might be ok.

My 16 and 18mm sockets are well used. I cannot say exactly what they were well used on, but given the time frames I would assume it was with 80s Toyota cars.

 

[Tonyuk]

You can get complete spline sockets sets relatively easily, i have a set that goes from 10-19 with no skips and it wasn't that expensive.

Larger sizes are harder to find here, hopefully more manufacturers will start adding to the spline sets soon.

 

[thwaller]

You can get complete spline sockets sets relatively easily, i have a set that goes from 10-19 with no skips and it wasn't that expensive.

Larger sizes are harder to find here, hopefully more manufacturers will start adding to the spline sets soon.

I found in my looking that Lowes has a decent selection of sizes available, but their sets have the same issue as Craftsman. So in the end, a complete and/or larger set ends up being expensive. Neiko has some nice sets in completeness, large sets in metric. Did not see inch sets as I do with others, maybe a reason for that.

 

[thwaller]

I wanted to share this with all here. I received the items mentioned in this thread. I am attaching here the sizing charts for each. There is a good deal of overlap, but there is in fact no mention of the missing sizes on the opposite set. Meaning, the 12mm and 15mm are not specified on the inch set anywhere. I have not tested these yet to see if the missing sizes can in fact be accommodated by any of the inch sizes, but I can share the intended uses.

Metric Set

Inch Set

EDIT: If someone could kindly inform me how to easily do images where I can post a thumbnail but have the link when clicked provide a full sized image, it would be appreciated. Or if I could just enter raw HTML this would be easy.