Unpermitted work - it was there when i bought the place.

[duneslider]

Some places are less on top of things than others. This was a active house listing in Pittsburgh from a flipper. Inside was just as bad. It just gets worse as you look.



Rittman brings up a good point, the inspector only sees inside the house (or around the house depending) if they are asked to inspect. You can violate every code imaginable inside and no one will know.

That is some creative work there! Its funny/sad/unfortunate that you can see they knew things weren't "right" so they added metal brackets, etc to solve the issue.

 

[Innovate1]

That is some creative work there! Its funny/sad/unfortunate that you can see they knew things weren't "right" so they added metal brackets, etc to solve the issue.

I am just wondering why they stopped at 3 levels.

 

[engineer2]

Good info in this thread! It varies so much around the country. I see on those TV shows California can make you tear out unpermitted work.

They are fairly strict about permits around the Chicago area, but they admit they can't control what people do to the inside of their homes. For anything visible you may as well get a permit. If your contractor says "we don't need no stinking permit, you just hired a hack. DIY'ers around here avoid permits because it raises your property taxes. My property taxes increased about $130 a year for the privilege of having a permitted $2000 wooden deck (1994 dollars). It amounts to a 100% tax over the life of the deck. This is unusual, but I live in an area with one of the highest property tax rates in the nation (3.4%).

When it comes time to sell, it's up to the potential buyer and the home inspector (if they hire one) to find hackery. If the buyer wants to be a ****, he can seek out any permits that were pulled over the years. It has killed deals according to my realtor friend, but it is very rare. If someone wants your house, they generally aren't out to piss off the seller.

 

[rlitman]

I am just wondering why they stopped at 3 levels.

Budget ran short before they could add the stone top level.

 

[Feralghoul88]

So if you sell your house and someone dies from a electrical problem that you wired and never got inspected, you are fine with that? It's your property, you do what you want to?

What about the other side, what if one of your family members buys my house and dies because I thought I knew how to wire in a outlet or something? Oh well it was my property when I wired it, not my problem.

No....then you get held responsible. Not sure why its so hard to understand that just because you dont have something inspected would mean that you couldnt hold people responsible in the event that something goes wrong. Stop being ok with giving the government more of your hard earned money to babysit you and shrug off the responsibility. If I buy your house and something is wrong and I dont catch it in time thats my problem to deal with, but if I do catch it now I get to make you answer for it.

I also like the people that try to frame my position as not wanting codes to exist, codes are fine, I just don't want/need a government babysitting me. If you do, than you might just need that security blanket. What do you want next, yearly inspections to ensure idiot home owners aren't plugging too many electric heaters into one outlet in the winter? That kind of thing starts a lot of house fires every year, so by your logic then perhaps it would be best if they made you apply for a permit to buy one of them and then had to have an inspector come charge you some money to make sure you plugged it in correctly and its far enough away from the Xmas tree (which you better have your permit if you have a real tree or else you're getting a fine for that as well!)

How about a compromise. If you insist on inspections, then why dont we use some of the tax money we already pay into the system to fund the permitting and inspections instead of charging us more money on top of that? Im sure we can find some programs to cut to make the funding work.

 

[Uncle murph]

I noticed a lot of people said to say this. Does that mean you're off the hook if you tell them oh it was already there when I bought the house. They can't go after you or the previous owner?

I had a electrical inspector on a job years ago who was clearly digging around trying to find something to flag outside of what he was there to inspect (my electrician was total ocd and did beautiful work)In my opinion he was looking for a bribe,that or he was just a miserable mean spirited a-hole,either way he was shown the door empty handed.

 

[Innovate1]

I had a electrical inspector on a job years ago who was clearly digging around trying to find something to flag outside of what he was there to inspect (my electrician was total ocd and did beautiful work)In my opinion he was looking for a bribe,that or he was just a miserable mean spirited a-hole,either way he was shown the door empty handed.

There are definately extremes at both ends of the spectrum. I thought my recent inspections were moderate to lax. Plumbing inspector was very helpful and suggested a couple ways I could do things a little simpler. Electrical and framing was just a check the box. I realized after the final that I had a couple wires hanging out of a box high on the wall that he must have seen as it was behind me as I was talking to him.

Years ago I went to the building department to ask a few questions about plumbing (different area) and was told if I was doing brain surgery I would have to go to medical school and they weren't there to teach me plumbing. Figured it was probably someone who thought I should hire a plumber rather than do it myself. Brain surgery is a far cry from plumbing so that seemed like a big leap. I dug around and found what I needed. Completed the job and called for inspection fearing some similar treatment. Showed up a few minutes late for the meeting and he wasn't there. Called in the morning and was told he got there a little early, the work looked great and he left the approval tucked under the siding.

Most of my interaction with permits and inspectors has been good. A few have been crazy. A few times they have asked me to do little things that I didn't think was necessary but easier to do it than argue. A bit of balance is needed.

 

[rlitman]

...How about a compromise. If you insist on inspections, then why dont we use some of the tax money we already pay into the system to fund the permitting and inspections instead of charging us more money on top of that? Im sure we can find some programs to cut to make the funding work.

And put the burden of this on ALL taxpayers, when the benefits are only to be had by the ones doing construction. I think not.

 

[billconner]

And put the burden of this on ALL taxpayers, when the benefits are only to be had by the ones doing construction. I think not.

Teed that one up good. Feralghoul88 doesn't want the safety for himself, but many made the case it was for others: family, visitors, future buyers. He finds no benefit. And of course he assumes liability, which I think he is fine with.

 

[Wheelingit]

The only thing I did was add an hvac and an extra sub panel about a year ago both are up to code but no permit and I can see why they didn't bother getting permits. I didn't care at the time but now that I'm adding a second building on the property I'm wondering if they will notice these things especially since the hvac is right next to the breaker box. Kind of hard to not see the ac condenser next to the breaker box.

In my area they generally are not looking at previous work. They inspect what they are there for and generally don't want to get involved in anything else.

 

[Jsf721]

I am in the begging stages of filing for a permit. My current contractor told me several areas that may have been code when built or by the previous owner, that are not, that will most likely be flagged and need to be upgraded once the inspector comes in from the town.

 

[tdkkart]

Good info in this thread! It varies so much around the country.

If the buyer wants to be a ****, he can seek out any permits that were pulled over the years. It has killed deals according to my realtor friend, but it is very rare. If someone wants your house, they generally aren't out to piss off the seller.

So far I'm in an area that doesn't make permits public record, but there's also counties all around me that barely have any permitting at all.
A lot of places here only require a septic permit for a new house, so the DNR knows where your sewage is going.

 

[billconner]

several areas that may have been code when built or by the previous owner, that are not, that will most likely be flagged

What a specific jurisdiction does is beyond me but generally if it met code at time it was done, it still does unless modified. That can get tricky of course. Here for instance, if I modify a circuit in anyway, like moving a device or adding an outlet, I have to change breaker to arc fault. But if I had a basement sleeping room prior to EERO being required, and redid kitchen, the basement does not need to be updated.

 

[reader2580]

My father started replacing the decking and railing on the deck at his (and my mom's) house in 2018 or 2019. He did not get a building permit. Someone from the city came by one day and gave him a stop work order. He had to get a permit plus pay a fine of the same amount as the permit fee before he could resume. He has no idea how the city found out, but the deck is clearly visible from a fairly busy county road. The city had no issues with his work except he had to add a light for the deck stairs.

The house has so much unpermitted work my parents will need an extra page or two for disclosures when the house is sold. I think that is the first building permit my father ever got for DIY projects. I don't think anything was ever done improperly. My father just didn't want his property taxes to go up with all the work he did. He finished the basement, partially remodeled the kitchen, removed a non-load bearing wall, and remodeled one of the bathrooms that I can recall. I am not sure if everything required permits or not, but the basement certainly did and probably removing the wall too.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

What do they do to keep track of these permits anyways? I find it hard to believe they can dig something up from 20 years ago.

 

[acer66]

What do they do to keep track of these permits anyways? I find it hard to believe they can dig something up from 20 years ago.

I am in a semi rural area and often they only have the septic on file if you go back a little bit further.

My house was originally build in 1901 but had numerous ad ons over the years that were more often than not done in a defying the laws of physics manner but nevertheless made it into the books at one point.

So I my uneducated guess is that they do not worry too much about the stuff done before they started keeping more track of things unless it is visible to the naked eye.

And with satellite images they do not even have to go to your place anymore or have someone call them.

I would not be surprised if they have a program that compares satellite images from different time periods and if there are changes it looks up if proper permits were pulled and notifies them if not.

 

[Feralghoul88]

I would not be surprised if they have a program that compares satellite images from different time periods and if there are changes it looks up if proper permits were pulled and notifies them if not.

Ha, not in rural areas. They barely have the desire to do septic in my county. A guy i know has a property and he tried to inform them that there is a few structures after he bought so that he doesnt get surprised with a tax bill for several years back or anything and they just kind of shrugged him off.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

So if they don't keep track then how do you prove it was permitted? Do they give you paperwork for your own record keeping?

 

[reader2580]

What do they do to keep track of these permits anyways? I find it hard to believe they can dig something up from 20 years ago.

Most cities keep a physical or digital building file on every property in the city. When I was buying my house in 2014 I asked for copies of the building file for each house from the respective city. All but one city had digitized everything. The cities with digital records just emailed me a copy of the building file. Everything they had on the property was scanned in, or a digital PDF if done more recently. The city with physical files I would have had to go down to city hall to see what was in the file folder.

They have things like any building permits, inspection records, septic tank permits, well permits, and the like. They also have septic pumping records and sometimes septic designs too. No blueprints though. I was told by most cities they only keep them for a few years.

The housing market was not hot in 2014 like today so I had time to get this information if I was interested in the house. If I lost out on a house it was usually because it sold before I could even look at it. I found out my house was reroofed in 2003 because there is a permit in the building file.

 

[reader2580]

And with satellite images they do not even have to go to your place anymore or have someone call them.

I would not be surprised if they have a program that compares satellite images from different time periods and if there are changes it looks up if proper permits were pulled and notifies them if not.

Counties in the local metro area have definitely used satellite imagery to look for exterior improvements not permitted like a new deck. It isn't about permits for the counties. They are looking for improvements to increased your estimated market value for property taxes.

I seem to recall them doing this with aerial photography before satellite imagery was available.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Counties in the local metro area have definitely used satellite imagery to look for exterior improvements not permitted like a new deck. It isn't about permits for the counties. They are looking for improvements to increased your estimated market value for property taxes.

I seem to recall them doing this with aerial photography before satellite imagery was available.

Yeah luckily Google earth made it so you can only zoom in so far now into someone's property. You used to be able to zoom in so far they could see your dog in the backyard.

 

[racecougar]

Counties in the local metro area have definitely used satellite imagery to look for exterior improvements not permitted like a new deck. It isn't about permits for the counties. They are looking for improvements to increased your estimated market value for property taxes.

I seem to recall them doing this with aerial photography before satellite imagery was available.

That has been in practice in my county for quite some time. I'm sure it is elsewhere as well. It's a simple way to quickly find potential violations and pull in revenue for the county. Cars that haven't moved in over a year are flagged as well, and the county DOES send out an inspector to have the owner prove that the car is either capable of moving under its own power or move the car into a building (with four walls...carports do not satisfy the inoperable vehicle storage requirement).

 

[billconner]

That has been in practice in my county for quite some time. I'm sure it is elsewhere as well. It's a simple way to quickly find potential violations and pull in revenue for the county. Cars that haven't moved in over a year are flagged as well, and the county DOES send out an inspector to have the owner prove that the car is either capable of moving under its own power or move the car into a building (with four walls...carports do not satisfy the inoperable vehicle storage requirement).

Jumping Jiminy, every farm and a lot of houses around me has rows of highly likely inoperable vehicles - including a lot of boats and trailers - lined up in the yard or field.

 

[racecougar]

Jumping Jiminy, every farm and a lot of houses around me has rows of highly likely inoperable vehicles - including a lot of boats and trailers - lined up in the yard or field.

It's common here, too. All it takes is one call/report from a pissed off neighbor though...

 

[reader2580]

Yeah luckily Google earth made it so you can only zoom in so far now into someone's property. You used to be able to zoom in so far they could see your dog in the backyard.

The counties almost certainly pay for the full imagery. I believe courts have ruled that views from overhead are not considered private.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

The counties almost certainly pay for the full imagery. I believe courts have ruled that views from overhead are not considered private.

Well then let me buy a foil tarp and place it over the house.

 

[yatg]

Well then let me buy a foil tarp and place it over the house.

You'll need a permit for that.

 

[jar944]

The counties almost certainly pay for the full imagery. I believe courts have ruled that views from overhead are not considered private.

Google has not restricted the imagery. It's the same resolution based on specific image that it has been for years.

County/ state gis and planning dept usually contract out for aerial photo updates ever so many years at the sub meter resolution. You can read a license plate number with the state air photos.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Well then let me buy a foil tarp and place it over

Google has not restricted the imagery. It's the same resolution based on specific image that it has been for years.

County/ state gis and planning dept usually contract out for aerial photo updates ever so many years at the sub meter resolution. You can read a license plate number with the state air photos.

Yes it has I used to be able to zoom in more before. Now I can't zoom in past like 300ft above the yard

 

[jar944]

Yes it has I used to be able to zoom in more before. Now I can't zoom in past like 300ft above the yard

Then something is wrong with your Google earth app, or they updated to a newer image over your place that has some resolution issues. Are you confusing Google earth and Google maps?

Cars in Google earth

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Maybe that's what it was. Google maps. I may have been on the wrong one or something.

 

[u2slow]

The house has so much unpermitted work my parents will need an extra page or two for disclosures when the house is sold.

Ummm... really? Have you checked your local real estate laws? In my area, disclosure only goes back 2 years.

So if they don't keep track then how do you prove it was permitted? Do they give you paperwork for your own record keeping?

The owner should have a permit copy, and it should be on file with the building office. It would be up to the prospective buyer to suss out details, consult building office, etc for any work more that 2 years old.

Edir: google's map detail/resolution may be better than what the general public can view for free. Street view is also hopelessly behind vs satellite view.

 

[bigdav160]

To the OP's question, if the work is done properly and to the safety standards at the time, of what is the purpose of a government issued permit?

Is there anyone here that thinks that the deck above wasn't built from a tinker toy set? If you can't perhaps you need to hire an inspector.

Personally, I'm just fine where I live (not that far from the OP).

 

[Wrench97]

I bought a house once that had PVC plumbing pipe run to a new addition bathroom.
The township had to inspect the house before they would issue a occupancy permit, the township inspector was happy to tell me he use to be a plumber in the township and did the work on the addition, of course the inspection passed.
2 years later I sold the house and the new inspector came, he said PVC pipe was a no-no in this township and it had to be removed and replaced with copper by a licensed(by the township) plumber........................it didn't matter the house passed the previous inspection, or that the previous inspector actually did the work in the house(new inspector stated yea he's flunked a lot of houses around here for having PVC and quite a few for nonconforming lot setbacks..................had to have the PVC ripped out and copper installed on my dime.

 

[driftpin]

What I would have done:
Ask for the code section adopted by the town for no PVC. When I was doing plans review, I was required to tag plans with labels showing the part of the code with which the plan was not-compliant. The local government may have an ordinance adopted to that effect, but if they don't have it, then it's whatever edition of the code that the state adopted.

 

[acer66]

It is sometimes weird at least to me how things go.
Here we have to run pvc from the meter to the house up to the pressure regulator and from there on it can be everything else but pvc.

I am working of approved plans for an addition and when the inspector came out everything came to a screeching hold because the plans even approved were wrong in a sense that they compromised the existing structure.

Friends of mine build a second story on an existing garage, plans approved and followed.
When completed all exterior sheeting a different inspector filling in for the main inspector deemed the foundation of the garage not save for a second level.
That was a few years ago and they gave up for now to find an engineer who would touch this in this market.

 

[larry_g]

I would not be surprised if they have a program that compares satellite images from different time periods and if there are changes it looks up if proper permits were pulled and notifies them if not.

They do. I have two different friends that have experienced this. One was getting a permit and they looked up the satellite pictures and then asked what the extra roof was on the side of his barn? He had added a leanto 15x40' or so on the barn to park implements in. He had to pay for a permit for that.
The next door neighbor showed me a letter with satellite pictures in it from the tax assessors that had circled areas in it where they were changing some of the land from farm to forest.

So yes they are spying on you from space. Big Brother is watching.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[u2slow]

Some jurisdictions may spy from space or google... for taxation and retro-permits... but many do not. (Based on direct personal experience.)

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Luckily around here they don't seem to want to leave the office unless they absolutely have to.

 

[jjrbus]

I feel sorry for you guys that live in places where this over reach occupies your thoughts and has you living in a state of almost paranoia.

The permitting and such can be a real pain and some of the inspectors should be fired. I can give numerous examples. Until you live in an area where no permitting is required and your nice meticulously maintained castle ends up with a carboard and cow dung stuffed used tires structure next to it. I can't believe what people try to get away with in FL.