Upgrade from Fuses

[tmcquinn]

I once met an electrical inspector at a party and he explained to me some of the differences between "old work" and "new work" and told me that he never wanted to discourage someone from improving their property. I hope this is still a common attitude today.

I have inherited a house that my father built in the 50s, just before I was born. It has all 12 gauge wire (2 connector) and fuses. The real estate people, who may or may not be putting my interests first, are balking at the fuse box. Let me start with a very general question before I write a novel. I'm aware that local codes can vary from the national standard but this is a very basic question. You can't just install a new panel and hook up the old 2 conductor, right? One way or another everything will need to be grounded now?

My first house had knob and tube. I knew exactly what to do on it...

 

[75gmck25]

My 1940 house had been upgraded from fuse box to a newer split-bus panel (maybe in the 60's), but still had all the old wiring. Since the old panel was still kind of screwy (look up split-bus to see what I mean), I paid for a 200 amp Square D panel upgrade (electricians call it a heavy-up), and never looked back. The electrician connected all the old wiring to the new panel. In most areas that will cost you $2000-3000.

My house also had only 7 circuits, and the combination of devices was strange, as if the electrician routed diagonal lines through the house and connected up whatever receptacles and lights were close each run.

I had access through the basement and attic, so I first diagrammed out all the old circuits and figured out how to access the old metal-clad cable. As I slowly upgraded the wiring, I pulled new 12/2 or 14/2 for each added circuit, and replaced the old wiring wherever it was accessible. In a few cases I just abandoned the old cable in the wall and ran new cable in a parallel path. If I could not find an easy way to ground a receptacle using new wiring, I used a GFCI.

I now have wired smoke detectors, separate GFCI circuits in the bath and kitchen, more than one or two receptacles in each bedroom, and many other upgrades that make the house safer. Its a slow process, but works well if you are willing to take your own time and not pay an electrician. I've been through inspection for three different "projects" and the city seems to think my work is fine.

Bruce

 

[sberry]

You can replace the panel and hook old wire to it, its a start in the improvement process as the inspector said. No one would do it if it had to all be done at once.

 

[tmcquinn]

Thanks. I looked up split bus panel.

Could I still get a new panel and hook up the old 2 conductor wiring to it? (I'm holding back on all the details until I get this straight in my head.)

 

[tmcquinn]

You can replace the panel and hook old wire to it, its a start in the improvement process as the inspector said. No one would do it if it had to all be done at once.

Looks like we were both posting simultaneously. Thank you. This is where I wanted to start.

So I get a new panel and hook the old wiring to it. I can remember a time when people used to just pull a ground wire to their outlets instead of installing all new 3 conductor. The wiring still looks to be in good shape, it just doesn't have grounds, nor do the outlets. Is a separate ground still possible? The basement is unfinished and this might not be that difficult to do.

 

[sberry]

It is in some cases but there are some rules for it. My take on this is,,,, if I can get a new wire to it I do. New wire is a good thing, if its old enough not to have a ground its already old.
I just did a house I own, I started out to fix some stuff and ran in to some problems with the original install, wired just before ground also and finally just replaced it all. I have another one I am going to start off on that foot with.

 

[Dagny]

The wise old gentleman I learned the the trade from always said fuses are better because sooner or later someone will have to go to town and buy more fuses giving the wiring time to cool off. I would not let fuses stop me from buying a house.

 

[tmcquinn]

Fuses don't bother me. But this house is in the low end of the market and they are telling me that FHA won't finance it without an upgrade. And I'm just not sure how much work I can do and not take a bath on the selling price. If it's legal, safe, and able to be sold with a clear conscience, I'll be happy.

If I were moving into to it we'd be starting over from scratch. But I have a lot of gadgets and I'm spoiled!

 

[yeldogt]

Fuses don't bother me. But this house is in the low end of the market and they are telling me that FHA won't finance it without an upgrade. And I'm just not sure how much work I can do and not take a bath on the selling price. If it's legal, safe, and able to be sold with a clear conscience, I'll be happy.

If I were moving into to it we'd be starting over from scratch. But I have a lot of gadgets and I'm spoiled!

The FHA requirements make buying a "fixer-upper" difficult ... this is a shame because buying correctly and improving has been a time proven wealth builder.

FHA's theory is .. we know better and we don't want you do buy a house with any issues. It's also a way to protect FHA from getting back a house that has needs. Sadly, the net effect is the house becomes more expensive with corresponding higher monthly mortgage.

If FHA requires an upgraded service they will not provide a mortgage for your property .. you should ask your RE agent what other items may fail the FHA inspection. If someone is getting an FHA loan -- it gets an independent inspection just for the FHA requirements.

I have run into this with my rentals .. I'm slowly selling them off -- they are in very good condition ... but, I was surprised at what kinds of things FHA looks at.

 

[tmcquinn]

Yes. I'm just trying to get it straight what I'm going to spend, what I'm going to DIY, and what is and isn't worth fooling with. I wasn't sure if circuit breakers hooked to 2 ungrounded outlets is even doable, legally.

I also am aware that not every low end property is financed through FHA. My first property wasn't. And it isn't a situation where I have to get it sold ASAP.

So I might be able to put in a new panel with circuit breakers, pull a ground wire to the downstairs outlets and install new ones, and not have to fiddle with the ceiling lights and the wires for the switches? This might be doable for a reasonable sum.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like we were both posting simultaneously. Thank you. This is where I wanted to start.

So I get a new panel and hook the old wiring to it. I can remember a time when people used to just pull a ground wire to their outlets instead of installing all new 3 conductor. The wiring still looks to be in good shape, it just doesn't have grounds, nor do the outlets. Is a separate ground still possible? The basement is unfinished and this might not be that difficult to do.

Yes code allows a separate ground wire to be pulled for retrofitting.

But you said you have MC. Are the boxes metal? If the MC goes all the way back to the panel unbroken, then that is the ground. Have you checked to see if the boxes are grounded?

 

[sberry]

I believe you are allowed to ground an outlet or device with a wire back to the panel. Daisey chaining to multiple devices not acceptable.
I am not sure how much you can recoup in a sale but anything new is certainly a selling point, new wire would be an asset instead of a point to debate discounting over.

 

[James-W]

When the wife and I bought the house we live in now, it only had 4 circuits and only one or 2 outlets per room. The house was built in the late 1940's, had lathe and plaster walls and ceilings, what little wiring it had was only 2 wire, and it had very little insulation.

We gutted the whole house, insulated the walls and ceilings, rewired everything, replaced all the windows, replaced the front door and the back door, then put up drywall. We remodeled the kitchen and the bathroom, replaced all the plumbing, added a water softener, ripped out the funky green carpeting and found hardwood floors which we had sanded and refinished. We also bought a new furnace along with central air.

We did most of the work ourselves, but even so, it still cost a lot of money. HOWEVER, regardless of what it cost, we ended up with a much nicer house that was much cheaper to heat and cool and we have a much safer house in that the wiring is all up to code. The money we spent I am quite certain we would recoup if we decide to sell the house. Plus, we live in a lot nicer house that costs us less to run than if we had not done what we did.

My suggestion would be this; since you have an older home it is most likely not all that well insulated. Knock down the walls and ceiling, insulate and rewire everything. It will cost you some money up front, but in the long term you will get the money back in heating/cooling savings. Plus you will likely have a safer house once it is rewired because then the wiring will be up to the current electrical code.

If you can't do it all at once, then just do one room at a time. It will take awhile to get it all done, but once it is finished you will be glad that you did it.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm sure there are a lot of houses around that still use fuses ... my local hardware store has an area .. so I know they are still around.

You can change out the panel and keep the wire ... I did it with a property a few years back. ground fault breakers will give protection when no ground.

 

[tmcquinn]

[/b]

Yes code allows a separate ground wire to be pulled for retrofitting.

But you said you have MC. Are the boxes metal? If the MC goes all the way back to the panel unbroken, then that is the ground. Have you checked to see if the boxes are grounded?

Sorry if I've used the wrong terms. MC?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry if I've used the wrong terms. MC?

Sorry. I confused you with the person on comment #2...

MC= metal clad cable

 

[Bert_]

I see no reason to replace any other wiring unless it is in bad shape or inadequate. If the two conductor wiring is in good shape leave it, maybe install some GFCI's if the two prong outlets are an issue for you. (If you GFCI protect a circuit, you can install 3 prong outlets on wiring with no ground wire.

I have replaced many panels in this manor. If it's a real old house and there's a lot of knob and tube I'll try to clean up whats in the basement and pull a couple new circuits to the kitchen/bathroom and maybe some downstairs outlets. Rarely do I run any new wire to any lights or upstairs outlets unless they are gutting it.

 

[tmcquinn]

I see no reason to replace any other wiring unless it is in bad shape or inadequate. If the two conductor wiring is in good shape leave it, maybe install some GFCI's if the two prong outlets are an issue for you. (If you GFCI protect a circuit, you can install 3 prong outlets on wiring with no ground wire.

I have replaced many panels in this manor. If it's a real old house and there's a lot of knob and tube I'll try to clean up whats in the basement and pull a couple new circuits to the kitchen/bathroom and maybe some downstairs outlets. Rarely do I run any new wire to any lights or upstairs outlets unless they are gutting it.

It's in great shape and it's all 12 gauge.

And the upstairs was done in the 70s with modern wiring.

 

[tmcquinn]

I see no reason to replace any other wiring unless it is in bad shape or inadequate. If the two conductor wiring is in good shape leave it, maybe install some GFCI's if the two prong outlets are an issue for you. (If you GFCI protect a circuit, you can install 3 prong outlets on wiring with no ground wire.

I have replaced many panels in this manor. If it's a real old house and there's a lot of knob and tube I'll try to clean up whats in the basement and pull a couple new circuits to the kitchen/bathroom and maybe some downstairs outlets. Rarely do I run any new wire to any lights or upstairs outlets unless they are gutting it.

This is definitely something I want to look into. I'll stock up on some GFCIs the next time I see them on sale. I have pulled a lot of wire in my life and there are always a few places where it takes forever because you're hitting Godknowswhat behind the wall. I'd rather put in a GFCI than spend hours trying to pull a ground...

 

[75gmck25]

When I upgraded my 2nd floor circuits I pulled two 12/3 wires up to the attic, wired as MWBC circuits (total of 4 circuits). I broke out each MWBC with a junction box in the attic. That gave me two bathroom circuits, (heater/fan combo, and GFCI receptacle) and two 20 amp circuits for bedroom receptacles. I left the old wiring in place for the ceiling lights. The only catch was that I didn't have head space in the attic near the roof eaves to drill down into the wall, so all the new receptacles are on inside walls or the end wall of the house. I later pulled another 12/3 to the attic (I could have used smaller) to interconnect the B/R smoke alarms with the basement and 1st floor.

Bruce

 

[SIX225]

While I don't have a problem with a fuse box, many insurance companies do. When I bought my place State Farm wanted 100 amp service with breakers. Too many people have upped the sizes of their fuses with no regard to wire gauge.

 

[tmcquinn]

While I don't have a problem with a fuse box, many insurance companies do. When I bought my place State Farm wanted 100 amp service with breakers. Too many people have upped the sizes of their fuses with no regard to wire gauge.

I'm pretty sure that other houses in the 'hood are selling as is, including fuses, but I might be able to find out for sure. It's on my list. I'm just trying to educate myself before I pick up a tool or a phone. It seems like a lot of insurance companies have an issue with this or that. I had some surprises in that area after we got a Pitt Bull. He's the friendliest dog you ever saw and he's terrified of nearly everything, including little girls, but most companies didn't even want to discuss it.

Is there an easy way I can determine how many amps the current service is?

 

[yeldogt]

I'm pretty sure that other houses in the 'hood are selling as is, including fuses, but I might be able to find out for sure. It's on my list. I'm just trying to educate myself before I pick up a tool or a phone. It seems like a lot of insurance companies have an issue with this or that. I had some surprises in that area after we got a Pitt Bull. He's the friendliest dog you ever saw and he's terrified of nearly everything, including little girls, but most companies didn't even want to discuss it.

Is there an easy way I can determine how many amps the current service is?

Insurance companies are always afraid of two things ... anything they don't know or understand ... anything that has produced recent losses.

What people don't understand is you are insured against being stupid -- plugging in larger fuses to run AC units and heaters is "stupid" .. so they want to eliminate the possibility of people doing the first .. because they will do the second. In areas where there are many very old houses .. it's always on the inspection lest.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Fuses don't bother me. But this house is in the low end of the market and they are telling me that FHA won't finance it without an upgrade. And I'm just not sure how much work I can do and not take a bath on the selling price. If it's legal, safe, and able to be sold with a clear conscience, I'll be happy.

I have seen every combination ! 2 wire to a newer panel with some new 3 wire, 3 wire to a fuse panel, etc. It is all safe and legal (I am living in case #2). Whether the FHA inspector would approve it, is an unknown.

The other one the FHA inspector may require is GFCI receptales in the kitchen and bathroom. Those are easy, just do NOT install to GFCI receptacles on the same circuit.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Perhaps a hybrid approach would work. Bring in a new service 100, 150 or 200Amps and then one 2 pole breaker feeds your existing fuse panel. Anything new you add would go into the new panel and you could upgrade the fuses when and if you decide to. This would allow you to work in the fuse panel cold with no worries. Hope this helps.

 

[rburke65]

YEARS ago....'71-'81 .... The company I worked for rewired lots of houses for FHA qualification. I'm sure those requirements have been changed by now. Relatively sure that if the upgrades don't pass the FHA inspection, then the house won't be eligible for a FHA loan.

 

[tmcquinn]

Guys, don't get me wrong. I'm going to take a run at some of the low hanging fruit here but I'm not going to knock myself out to please the FHA. People are buying the other houses in the neighborhood and I don't have to be in a hurry to sell.

So there's no easy way to just look at the panel and tell how many amps the existing service is?

 

[sberry]

How big are the main fuses?

 

[yeldogt]

Guys, don't get me wrong. I'm going to take a run at some of the low hanging fruit here but I'm not going to knock myself out to please the FHA. People are buying the other houses in the neighborhood and I don't have to be in a hurry to sell.

So there's no easy way to just look at the panel and tell how many amps the existing service is?

Why does the current service amps matter ? When I was doing rehabs we always replaced the old service -- what went back was dependent on current common practice. At the time that was 100amp .. today, everything around me on the bigger places is 200 amp .. but they are still using 100 amp on the smaller rehabs and rows in the city.

The common configuration is always the cheapest -- the parts for a service change can be had for little $$

 

[tmcquinn]

How big are the main fuses?

****. I was just there. One of the neighbors called saying there was a problem but it was another nearby house... I will check that. I did try to take a photo but it didn't come out too well. It looks like the main panel is rated for 100 amps. It's a very small house and I'm guessing 100 amps is better than most of the houses in the neighborhood that haven't been upgraded.

 

[Bert_]

How big are the main fuses?

That may be a bit misleading in some cases. In the 50's-60's there where quite a few 100A fuse panels that had a "Lighting" main and a second "Range" pullout which was also a main , normally with 60A and 40A fuses =100A.

Earlier panels would have the range pullout on the load side of the main fuses so there would only be one main, usually with 60A fuses.

 

[sberry]

Yes good point. I am aware how they were built. Did some actually have 100 fuses, I cant recall ever seeing them in resi come to think about it.

 

[tmcquinn]

Well, then maybe it isn't what I was hoping.

I'm reaching out to find an electrician to work with. I just like to do my homework upfront. I do appreciate the help from you folks.

 

[tmcquinn]

Yes good point. I am aware how they were built. Did some actually have 100 fuses, I cant recall ever seeing them in resi come to think about it.

My father was into TV repair and ham radio. If they offered 100 back then it's possible he would have gone for it. I know he told me that he used all 12 gauge wire, just in case he needed it some day. He was a very frugal man so it must not have cost much more back then.

 

[jbwilkins]

The FHA requirements make buying a "fixer-upper" difficult ... this is a shame because buying correctly and improving has been a time proven wealth builder.



FHA's theory is .. we know better and we don't want you do buy a house with any issues. It's also a way to protect FHA from getting back a house that has needs. Sadly, the net effect is the house becomes more expensive with corresponding higher monthly mortgage.



If FHA requires an upgraded service they will not provide a mortgage for your property .. you should ask your RE agent what other items may fail the FHA inspection. If someone is getting an FHA loan -- it gets an independent inspection just for the FHA requirements.



I have run into this with my rentals .. I'm slowly selling them off -- they are in very good condition ... but, I was surprised at what kinds of things FHA looks at.

The FHA no longer requires an inspection and hasn’t for several years....basically if a house meets code then the FHA is fine with It.....however the appraisal process is more rigorous and the appraiser can recommend an inspection....to the buyer....

The agents are just trying to get all the possible hurdles out of the way before listing.....I had a friend whose breaker panel was in a closet....when it was built it met code, but now that’s a no-no (fire hazard) ....the agent pointed it out to him and suggested he move it....instead of having the buyer try to use it as a negotiating item or walk after an inspection he coughed up $3k and had it moved...

 

[Bert_]

Well, then maybe it isn't what I was hoping.

I'm reaching out to find an electrician to work with. I just like to do my homework upfront. I do appreciate the help from you folks.

I would guess it's rated for a total of 100A based on both pullouts saying MAIN.

Those 30A fuses in there are the main reason the insurance companies do not want to cover houses with a fuse panel. 99% chance those fuses should be 15's or 20's.
Aside from the trouble with people installing oversize fuses, they are very safe and often more reliable than breakers.

Yes good point. I am aware how they were built. Did some actually have 100 fuses, I cant recall ever seeing them in resi come to think about it.

I have seen a few with 100A main fuses, but the majority of 100A fuse panels I've seen used the 60A + 40A main set up. I would assume it was cheaper to build a panel that way.

The panels with a single 100A main seemed to be made later. So it is possible that breaker panels were gaining popularity during that time. I've seen fuse panels that were installed well into the end of the 70's but they were definitely a minority. In those later years there must have been quite a variety of fuse panels made, nicest one I've seen had a 200A main breaker and ~30 fused branch circuits. It was totally adequate f or the house and was in very nice shape with no overfusing, but the insurance still wanted it replaced.

 

[TractorJeff]

Even though it says "Main" It is also stamped Range meaning in my opinion, its a 60/40 style box! YEP! Them 30's in there will get you into trouble!

 

[tmcquinn]

I'll have a closer look but I think the 30s are driving sub panels that were more recently installed. But thanks for pointing it out. I do want to know.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Even though it says "Main" It is also stamped Range meaning in my opinion, its a 60/40 style box! YEP! Them 30's in there will get you into trouble!

I have almost the identical panel (Wadsworth), except that it has 12 screw in glass fuses (all 15A). The "Main Range" cartridge fuses have been downgraded to 20A (circuit has been repurposed), but I don't recall what is in the "Main Lighting" fuse holder. Two 60A cartridge fuses, in theory, would only be adequate for 8 - 15A circuits.

I don't want to pull this fuse holder out (especially while SWMBO is watch some old movie), so what size do you think they are ?

 

[tmcquinn]

Ok, does this help? I was there briefly today. I pulled "Main Lights" and the stove still worked. It looks to me like Main Lights have 60 amp fuses and Main Range has 40 amp. Do I maybe have 100 amp service?