mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
It will also be hard to keep straight while mounted on the side of your house. If it will be visible, use pvc.
upgrade partial 2 wire to 3 wire
- Thread starter kmehr
- Start date
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
The 360° Rule is in the Code.
I would have suggested that you use regular PVC conduit. Is there any chance you can return the NM Flex?
I would have suggested that you use regular PVC conduit. Is there any chance you can return the NM Flex?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yeah use PVC instead of LTNMFC
Yeah I can easily return it. One reason I went with it was that it didn’t cost a thousand dollars to get delivered like pvc would in these days of quarantine. I’ll probably just **** it up and make a Home Depot run in a few days. Figure I can do the garage side layout and wiring and trench digging first.
Terry D
Well-known member
If you are talking about installing that underground and then trying to pull wire in it for that distance, you would never get the wire through it, that stuff is made for short distances where a flexible connection is needed. Example, A/C condensers, Spas, motors.
Plus, it would have to listed and marked for direct burial for it to be legal, not all of it is. Just because the NEC says you can do it, doesn't always mean its a good idea. Its not a "how to" book
Plus, it would have to listed and marked for direct burial for it to be legal, not all of it is. Just because the NEC says you can do it, doesn't always mean its a good idea. Its not a "how to" book
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I'm staying subscribed just to see what comes next
This is almost as helpful as some of your other condescending posts. I've already fully admitted I'm a novice at this work and just came here for help. If your purpose is just to make fun of me because I'm asking dumb questions, then please take your internet trolling elsewhere.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Try asking for advice before making a purchase. You continue to make decisions that are not correct, seems contrary to your acknowledgment that you are a novice.
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We all do, some think their **** does not stink & do not make mistakes, and I am not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a observation.
Nutshell
Member
Just a suggestion. Go bigger if you can, 100 amp panel. I know it sounds excessive but if your going to take the time to dig and run conduit do it once. You never know what you may want to put in there in the future. At the very least, run a conduit large enough for a 100 amp sub panel. Also run a spare 1" just incase you need some low voltage wiring down the road.
Terry D
Well-known member
Terry D
Well-known member
Kmehr, We all make mistakes, boy I have my share of them. These forums are for members to ask for help, answer questions and to share there own experiences. Most of the people on here are actually trying to help you. I understand, all this information at once can be overwhelming. And I understand that I am going to be repeating the information you have already been given.
There are multiple conductors used for direct burial and also conductors that can only be installed in conduit. I personally am a fan of using conduit, but that doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with direct burial.
You have to ask yourself, how much power do you need now and in the future. If you are planning on air conditioning or heat down the road, these are things to consider now. It is way more easier now to spend the extra money to go a little bigger than trying to do it later. And should you go copper or aluminum. There is nothing wrong with aluminum. It is a lot cheaper, it is not the same aluminum that was around 30 - 40 years ago.
Defiantly go with PVC conduit buried 18" deep. Go with a 100 amp main breaker panel in the garage, this will satisfy your disconnecting requirements even if you don't take 100 amps out there. Make sure you have a separate ground bar. When you install the bar, this will bond it to the enclosure of the panel. Make sure you do not bond the neutral bar to the enclosure, this is done by a green screw or a strap that comes with the panel. Most, if not all panels these days come with the bonding means not installed.
Install 2 ground rods outside and use a #6 copper to connect the rods to the ground bar. All that is left is to decide how many amps you need.
1 1/2 PVC conduit with (3) #1 XHHW alum. and (1) #6 alum. XHHW EGC would give you 100 amps.
1 1/4 PVC with (3) #2 XHHW alum. and (1) #6 XHHW alum EGC would give you 90 amps.
1 " PVC with (3) # 4 XHHW alum. and (1) # 6 XHHW alum EGC would give you 70 amps. #6 is a 65 amp conductor, but since a 65 amp breaker is not a standard size, you are allowed to go up to the next standard size.
1" PVC conduit with (3) #6 XHHW alum. and (1) #8 XHHW alum EGC would give you 50 amps
These conduit sizes are the minimum size required. you could go a little bigger. I personally wouldn't go less than 70 amps, more if A/C or heating is a possibility. You're doing all this work, give yourself some power out there.
And a very good idea by Nutshell, while you already have a trench open, put a spare conduit in there for low voltage, something I wish I did when I wired mine years ago.
Hope this helps
There are multiple conductors used for direct burial and also conductors that can only be installed in conduit. I personally am a fan of using conduit, but that doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with direct burial.
You have to ask yourself, how much power do you need now and in the future. If you are planning on air conditioning or heat down the road, these are things to consider now. It is way more easier now to spend the extra money to go a little bigger than trying to do it later. And should you go copper or aluminum. There is nothing wrong with aluminum. It is a lot cheaper, it is not the same aluminum that was around 30 - 40 years ago.
Defiantly go with PVC conduit buried 18" deep. Go with a 100 amp main breaker panel in the garage, this will satisfy your disconnecting requirements even if you don't take 100 amps out there. Make sure you have a separate ground bar. When you install the bar, this will bond it to the enclosure of the panel. Make sure you do not bond the neutral bar to the enclosure, this is done by a green screw or a strap that comes with the panel. Most, if not all panels these days come with the bonding means not installed.
Install 2 ground rods outside and use a #6 copper to connect the rods to the ground bar. All that is left is to decide how many amps you need.
1 1/2 PVC conduit with (3) #1 XHHW alum. and (1) #6 alum. XHHW EGC would give you 100 amps.
1 1/4 PVC with (3) #2 XHHW alum. and (1) #6 XHHW alum EGC would give you 90 amps.
1 " PVC with (3) # 4 XHHW alum. and (1) # 6 XHHW alum EGC would give you 70 amps. #6 is a 65 amp conductor, but since a 65 amp breaker is not a standard size, you are allowed to go up to the next standard size.
1" PVC conduit with (3) #6 XHHW alum. and (1) #8 XHHW alum EGC would give you 50 amps
These conduit sizes are the minimum size required. you could go a little bigger. I personally wouldn't go less than 70 amps, more if A/C or heating is a possibility. You're doing all this work, give yourself some power out there.
And a very good idea by Nutshell, while you already have a trench open, put a spare conduit in there for low voltage, something I wish I did when I wired mine years ago.
Hope this helps
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I'm not busting chops because he made a mistake, yes, we all do.
Alright thanks for all these helpful replies. My uncle that has done a lot of electrical work, and used to do fiberoptic installs is coming over tomorrow, so that should be helpful.
Here is what I have so far:
- #4 aluminum XHHW-2 (enough for 3 strands)
- #6 aluminum XHHW-2- for the ground connection
- #6 bare copper for the connection to the grounding rod.
- 8/2 for interior wiring on for the dedicated 220/230/240 circuits- one for welder, one for compressor
- 12/2 for all the 115/120v stuff
I returned the flex conduit this morning and got regular 1 1/2 in PVC.
Sub panel is a 12 space, 125 amp panel. Agreed that there will things I may want to do in the future.
60amp breaker to feed from the main box.
(2) 50 amp breakers for the air compressor and welding circuits (7.5 amp and 27 amp FLA respectively, so that's way over kill).
(2) 20 amp circuits- one for outlets, and 1 for lights.
I already installed 1 grounding rod (shocked how easy it was to drive in!)( do I really need a second one?), and I have already dug the trench between my house and garage- i had to go with a slightly different path after the utility company came out and marked the gas line. I've read that it can be ok to cross gas line, but I just didn't feel comfortable with that.
As far as potential upgrades, frankly the next thing would be tearing down the garage and expanding. The entry point of the current power supply won't change though, so I'm already in good shape when the time comes. I may get a bigger compressor someday, and maybe heat of some sort, but that's about it. My house doesn't even have AC, so i can't imagine adding it to my garage.
THe garage right now is frustrating is shape/size. It's 22x21, and 7 feet interior height. there is only one garage door, and it's tiny. The wife's car barely fits through the opening, my truck can forget about it. It used to be a 1 car size with a carport on the side, and someone knocked down most of one wall to make a two car size. But again only one door. And one side is wildly uneven brick floor, the other poured concrete with about 8in of the orignal wall separating the two "bays". At least it has a nice bit of storage in the attic. Dream is to someday tear it down, expand to about 30x30, with a flat roof to have a patio and garden on, but that's a thread for another time.
Here is what I have so far:
- #4 aluminum XHHW-2 (enough for 3 strands)
- #6 aluminum XHHW-2- for the ground connection
- #6 bare copper for the connection to the grounding rod.
- 8/2 for interior wiring on for the dedicated 220/230/240 circuits- one for welder, one for compressor
- 12/2 for all the 115/120v stuff
I returned the flex conduit this morning and got regular 1 1/2 in PVC.
Sub panel is a 12 space, 125 amp panel. Agreed that there will things I may want to do in the future.
60amp breaker to feed from the main box.
(2) 50 amp breakers for the air compressor and welding circuits (7.5 amp and 27 amp FLA respectively, so that's way over kill).
(2) 20 amp circuits- one for outlets, and 1 for lights.
I already installed 1 grounding rod (shocked how easy it was to drive in!)( do I really need a second one?), and I have already dug the trench between my house and garage- i had to go with a slightly different path after the utility company came out and marked the gas line. I've read that it can be ok to cross gas line, but I just didn't feel comfortable with that.
As far as potential upgrades, frankly the next thing would be tearing down the garage and expanding. The entry point of the current power supply won't change though, so I'm already in good shape when the time comes. I may get a bigger compressor someday, and maybe heat of some sort, but that's about it. My house doesn't even have AC, so i can't imagine adding it to my garage.
THe garage right now is frustrating is shape/size. It's 22x21, and 7 feet interior height. there is only one garage door, and it's tiny. The wife's car barely fits through the opening, my truck can forget about it. It used to be a 1 car size with a carport on the side, and someone knocked down most of one wall to make a two car size. But again only one door. And one side is wildly uneven brick floor, the other poured concrete with about 8in of the orignal wall separating the two "bays". At least it has a nice bit of storage in the attic. Dream is to someday tear it down, expand to about 30x30, with a flat roof to have a patio and garden on, but that's a thread for another time.
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Power supply is all in and one new 220v plug and circuit is run! My uncle was a life saver yesterday and we worked all day running wire and him doing the panel setups. Still need to rewire all the existing 110v plugs and lights, but serious progress was made! Plus i got to put dirt back in my trench before all of my grass in that area died. Very happy and excited to get my new welder setup (went with the Hobart 210mvp). Now I'm eyeing a big compressor and plasma cutter...
sberry
Banned
7.5 hp is kind of big for 60A service. 5 is doable and makes all the air it takes to do body work. Back in the 220 days when 60 to garages was typical 3 hp "mechanics" comps were common, they were 2 stage and could pump hi pressure truck tires. Run impacts and air ratchets, hoists. Fla was 18 and starts didn't insult the service. They were often wired to feed thru lugs with a 10 cable to a 1 armed bandit as a disconnect, and the 50 "range" fuses were 10 cable to a welder outlet.
A Hobart 210 is ideal for this as is the 375 plasma. If you wanted real monster tools the wire should have been a size larger. The 210 is modest, it works well. The goal here is to be adequate,, not to see how much you can use but size of service needs to be matched for intended equipment.
A Hobart 210 is ideal for this as is the 375 plasma. If you wanted real monster tools the wire should have been a size larger. The 210 is modest, it works well. The goal here is to be adequate,, not to see how much you can use but size of service needs to be matched for intended equipment.
dave*99
Well-known member
You mention a compressor, welder, and in the future a plasma cutter. These all run on 240 (as you know) and will be individually wired. So that's 2 spaces in your panel per machine. That totals 6
Then you mention 2 circuits for 120V. You may decide to add more as you progress in this work.
So now you are up to 8 spaces in your 12 space panel.
Do you have a circuit for the garage door opener?
Give some thought to a larger panel. They are cheap.
And yes you need 2 ground rods. Unless of course you have the equipment to measure and prove the impedance of the single rod is less than 25 ohms. Since few can do that, the easy thing to do that meets code is to use 2 ground rods.
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Terry D
Well-known member
Dont do all that work and put in a panel with not enough spaces, you will regret it. Panels are cheap. I wouldn't go anything less that a 20 space
Sent from my SM-G960U using The Garage Journal mobile app
Sent from my SM-G960U using The Garage Journal mobile app
Good advice to go even bigger, but the panel is already in and I think it will work fine for now. When I redo the garage itself, I'll probably put in a bigger panel. Honestly it wouldn't be all that hard to swap it out when the time comes.
My welder runs 27 amps maxed out. My current compressor runs 15. I have a dedicated circuit for the welder, and I'll use that same one for the plasma cutter. I won't ever be using both at the same time, and they'll be on a cart together, so that shouldn't be an issue. I'm about to pull the trigger on the Hobart 27i plasma cutter which is only 15 amps on its max setting.
The air compressor I'm looking at is 240v and is 15 amp at full tilt. That would run the same time as my plasma, but would only be 30 amps total. I have some overhead lights that are suing LEDs, so they draw less than 1 amp each. So two spaces for welder/plasma, two for compressor. One space for the 120V wall plugs, one space for lights and I can use the garage door on that circuit. That's six spaces, with six more left over and I can't really imagine what else I would use? Especially with my garage as is, and I'm just a single worker, I can only use so many tools at once haha.
My welder runs 27 amps maxed out. My current compressor runs 15. I have a dedicated circuit for the welder, and I'll use that same one for the plasma cutter. I won't ever be using both at the same time, and they'll be on a cart together, so that shouldn't be an issue. I'm about to pull the trigger on the Hobart 27i plasma cutter which is only 15 amps on its max setting.
The air compressor I'm looking at is 240v and is 15 amp at full tilt. That would run the same time as my plasma, but would only be 30 amps total. I have some overhead lights that are suing LEDs, so they draw less than 1 amp each. So two spaces for welder/plasma, two for compressor. One space for the 120V wall plugs, one space for lights and I can use the garage door on that circuit. That's six spaces, with six more left over and I can't really imagine what else I would use? Especially with my garage as is, and I'm just a single worker, I can only use so many tools at once haha.
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