Upgrade Service or New Second Service

[Mezz2006]

I need some input from you guys, I got my building up last summer, and am now working on getting power to it. I have 2 options for getting power to my new shed/shop/garage. Shop is 44x56x16, prepped for in floor heat, will eventually get a 2 post lift, and a 18x28 wood shop. I don't really need 200amps, but i am out of space in my existing house panel and would need at minimum a sub panel installed to pull from the existing 200amp house service.

Option 1 is add a second 200amp service direct to the shop. With this, power co is responsible for any future wire issues between transformer and meter. Power co would trench in the new cable to the meter socket. Rep came out, but did not measure to where I would want the meter, ~220ft. He gave me a price of $500 for the first 145ft, additional distance is $11.14/ft. I am estimating ~$500 for meter socket/pedestal/conduit and ~$1400 to PoCo. There is a daily meter fee of $0.17/day ($62.05/yr).

Option 2 is upgrade my existing 200amp service to 320amp. With this, the power co told me they will do all the upgrades on their end at no charge. I would need to upgrade my existing pedestal to a 320amp with mains and trench/pull wire to the shop at a distance of ~200ft. I am estimating ~$2k in materials, then another ~$1k for trencher/payment to electrician buddy.

At this time, I am leaning towards the second service because of lower install cost, and based on the costs I am estimating, it would take ~16 years of meter fees to equal out the cost of pulling wire from house to shop. Second service also could be beneficial if I ever were to use the shop for business purposes.

What do you all think?

 

[PCustoms]

I think you need to do a load calc in your house panel.

Needing to add a sub there to pull to the shop is not a reason to upgrade the service.

Hint: PoCo "told me they will do all the upgrades on their end at no charge" means they likely aren't changing anything

 

[manwithtools]

Hint: PoCo "told me they will do all the upgrades on their end at no charge" means they likely aren't changing anything

It could also mean PoCO's feeders from the transformer to meter are already sized for a 320 service. That was the case in my recent move from 200 to 320 amp service.

Load calc is not a bad idea, but going with a larger than needed service to the shop is not that much more expensive. I've decided on 150 amps to my shop to accommodate possible future need for EV chargers or other unanticipated electrical loads. Far cheaper to oversupply now than to re-do it later. In my case, going to the 320 amp service with two 200 amp panels on the house was less complicated than adding a subpanel to the existing house 200 amp panel. This was mainly due to the house's construction adding many constraints to re-working the existing panel.

 

[Mezz2006]

I think you need to do a load calc in your house panel.

Needing to add a sub there to pull to the shop is not a reason to upgrade the service.

Hint: PoCo "told me they will do all the upgrades on their end at no charge" means they likely aren't changing anything

Load calc comes out at 135 to 150 amps depending on whether electric vehicle charging is added in (possibility in the future). This does not include any shop equipment. This is based off the "ask-the-electrician.com" Load Calc form linked from Energy.gov.

Agreed, adding a sub panel is not a reason to upgrade service, however, due to house construction and current panel location adding a sub panel is a significantly more complicated thus just as costly, or possibly more, as upgrading the current service to a 320 Amp with pedestal that has (2) 200amp integrated main disconnects. The only price difference would be the cost of the sub panel vs the upgraded pedestal, and then I still have to do the finishing work to make it look nice in my finished basement. This is why I didn't give that as an option.

PoCo told me they would need to add a transformer at the end of my drive to accommodate the upgrade, so they are changing things.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

wait a minute, need to backup here

the load calc on the house came out to 135-150a? thats a lot for a house. What loads do you have in the house? electric or gas for heat dryer stove, etc? how large is the house? how many people?

As far as the shop goes, how many people working in there? what equipment specifically?

The panel being out of room is not a reason to upgrade the service size. usually you can combine 1 or 2 lightly used circuits to make room for a double pole breaker to feed the shop. or theres a few breakers that arent being used at all

 

[niget2002]

My shop has dedicated power. It makes it really convenient when looking at the electric bill to know what my 'hobbies' cost us each month.

 

[u2slow]

Review the cost structure rate of the 2nd service. My utility rarely allows it, and if they do, it's not the 'cheap' residential rate.

If you anticipate having backup gen power on your property to serve both, then a single electrical service is preferable.

 

[Mezz2006]

need to backup here

what was the load calc on the house?

and some random website told you 135-150a for a wood shop(without knowing what equipment), lift(which is not much of a load at all), some in floor heat that we have no clue what size load it is, and a possible EV charger in the future? I didnt see you list a compressor or plasma cutter either... Id be highly suspicious of those calcs from said website...

Hell we dont even know how many people are gonna be working in your shop. If its 1 person and occasionally 2, theres no way youll EVER use anywhere near 135-150a.... that is a ton of power.... and if your house load calc is low and you have natural gas, i highly doubt youll need to upgrade anything at all.

The panel being out of room is not a reason to upgrade the service size. usually you can combine 1 or 2 lightly used circuits to make room for a double pole breaker to feed the shop. or theres a few breakers that arent being used at all

That is load calc on the house only, no shop equipment included. I checked a couple different load calc sites and they were pretty consistent. Do you have a preferred method for doing a load calc?

1 to 3 people working in the shop (if my kids show interest when they get older). Lets say table saw and planer at the same time, or table saw and welder (two separate areas), plus dust collector. And maybe the air compressor kicks in while this is going on.

 

[Mezz2006]

Review the cost structure rate of the 2nd service. My utility rarely allows it, and if they do, it's not the 'cheap' residential rate.

If you anticipate having backup gen power on your property to serve both, then a single electrical service is preferable.

2nd meter is same rate as first.
Good thought on the generator. No back-up generator at this time, probably won't be in the shop if I need to be running a generator.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

mike holt has a really good load calc on a spreadsheet

you must have a large all electric house...

 

[Mezz2006]

mike holt has a really good load calc on a spreadsheet

you must have a large all electric house...

Checked out the Mike Holt Spreadsheet and also got 130amps, house only. House is ~3000sqft, NG heat and water heater, electric dryer, well pump. Currently have gas stove/range, but also setup for electric/dual fuel, I don't want to rule out switching to this when the current stove gets replaced. A/C is a big consumer ~30% of the year. Down the road, I may eventually do A/C in the shop as well.

 

[DC73]

One thing to keep in mind is that by going with two meters, you'll generally have two base charges. If you go the 2nd option with just one meter, you'll save the second base charge. Might double check with the power company as to their rates and how they work. Some PoCos will "add consumption" and thus treat two meters as one which might help if you really want the two meter option. Good luck.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I didn't vote, BUT I did just put 2- 200a panels in my house and garage.
The house was a glass fuse panel and only 100a. Lots of add-ons and half-taps by the previous owner. I knew the wife was planning on putting in a hottub and god knows what other accessories. I knew I would be putting a pole barn up and wanted no less than 100a service as just one of my welders can pull that, let alone the air compressor and whatever else I may need. I don't plan on any electric vehicles but if I ever need to put in a charger, they are 80amp alone.
So the house got a 200a breaker box and the detached garage got its own 200a panel. Both have their own meter, currently the garage meter is only costing $13 a month. The polebarn is up but I'm still putting in the tool room to keep my tools from sweating and rusting, so I have yet to put it to good use.

 

[beltfeed]

I need some input from you guys, I got my building up last summer, and am now working on getting power to it. I have 2 options for getting power to my new shed/shop/garage. Shop is 44x56x16, prepped for in floor heat, will eventually get a 2 post lift, and a 18x28 wood shop. I don't really need 200amps, but i am out of space in my existing house panel and would need at minimum a sub panel installed to pull from the existing 200amp house service.

Option 1 is add a second 200amp service direct to the shop. With this, power co is responsible for any future wire issues between transformer and meter. Power co would trench in the new cable to the meter socket. Rep came out, but did not measure to where I would want the meter, ~220ft. He gave me a price of $500 for the first 145ft, additional distance is $11.14/ft. I am estimating ~$500 for meter socket/pedestal/conduit and ~$1400 to PoCo. There is a daily meter fee of $0.17/day ($62.05/yr).

Option 2 is upgrade my existing 200amp service to 320amp. With this, the power co told me they will do all the upgrades on their end at no charge. I would need to upgrade my existing pedestal to a 320amp with mains and trench/pull wire to the shop at a distance of ~200ft. I am estimating ~$2k in materials, then another ~$1k for trencher/payment to electrician buddy.

At this time, I am leaning towards the second service because of lower install cost, and based on the costs I am estimating, it would take ~16 years of meter fees to equal out the cost of pulling wire from house to shop. Second service also could be beneficial if I ever were to use the shop for business purposes.

What do you all think?

Only thing I will say is your cost estimates for all three options are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay low!

 

[Max]

@Mezz2006, what equipment do you plan for your shop? I do woodworking in my shop, and 60A meets my needs. My largest power hogs are my 3 HP Unisaw that will run concurrently with the 2 HP dust collector. Together I think that's roughly 30A. I also have a small minisplit for the shop which if I remember right is about 10A @ 240V. I've also got a small planer, 17" bandsaw, and 8" joiner but they use less power than the unisaw. I've never popped a breaker in 7 years using my equipment. Lights are a pretty minimal load, but they are on a house circuit and not the shop subpanel.

If you've got larger equipment like a 5 HP table saw, or maybe a 5 HP planer than you might need more than 60A. Or if you were going to have multiple machines running at once with multiple operators than you'd need a more. I can't say how much your in floor heat will pull as I use my minisplit for heating in the winter, but obviously that has to be factored in.

Overall, unless you have some very large machines with multiple operators I think that it'd be very hard for you to use over 100A in your shop.

Your house load calc also seems high to me. I have a larger house than yours with similar loads - two ACs and a heat pump, gas furnaces, gas range and water heater, electric dryer and it (plus my shop) all runs great on 200A. I don't have an EV, but on the other hand wouldn't you be charging at night for lower rates? And the AC load will be much less at night, plus no washer/dryer/stove running.

If you have the skill and equipment I'd be tempted to use a clamp on meter to measure your current load with everything running. Or alternately you could have an electrician do the measurement for you. In any case, given how my house and shop work I'd be tempted to put in a 100A subpanel in the shop that's fed off the house main panel. And then only if I needed it would I upgrade to 320A...

 

[Mezz2006]

@Mezz2006, what equipment do you plan for your shop? I do woodworking in my shop, and 60A meets my needs. My largest power hogs are my 3 HP Unisaw that will run concurrently with the 2 HP dust collector. Together I think that's roughly 30A. I also have a small minisplit for the shop which if I remember right is about 10A @ 240V. I've also got a small planer, 17" bandsaw, and 8" joiner but they use less power than the unisaw. I've never popped a breaker in 7 years using my equipment. Lights are a pretty minimal load, but they are on a house circuit and not the shop subpanel.

If you've got larger equipment like a 5 HP table saw, or maybe a 5 HP planer than you might need more than 60A. Or if you were going to have multiple machines running at once with multiple operators than you'd need a more. I can't say how much your in floor heat will pull as I use my minisplit for heating in the winter, but obviously that has to be factored in.

Overall, unless you have some very large machines with multiple operators I think that it'd be very hard for you to use over 100A in your shop.

Your house load calc also seems high to me. I have a larger house than yours with similar loads - two ACs and a heat pump, gas furnaces, gas range and water heater, electric dryer and it (plus my shop) all runs great on 200A. I don't have an EV, but on the other hand wouldn't you be charging at night for lower rates? And the AC load will be much less at night, plus no washer/dryer/stove running.

If you have the skill and equipment I'd be tempted to use a clamp on meter to measure your current load with everything running. Or alternately you could have an electrician do the measurement for you. In any case, given how my house and shop work I'd be tempted to put in a 100A subpanel in the shop that's fed off the house main panel. And then only if I needed it would I upgrade to 320A...

Shop equipment would include table saw and dust collector, planer, possibly a drum sander, welder, possibly a plasma cutter, air compressor, lift, possibly a/c to take some humidity out in the summer.

Currently it is just me, but I can see my 2 boys doing projects with me when they are a little older.

I understand it is very unlikely that I would ever need 200a out there, but if I need to dig a trench and pull wire, I'm going to oversize so I won't have to do it again if I ever needed more power. Add in another panel in the house so I have space to pull wire out to the shop (maybe I could make space with some dual breakers without having to rewire the entire panel).

If the cost is almost equal, I guess I don't know why I would only run 100amp if I can get 200amp and do less of the work myself.

 

[Mezz2006]

Only thing I will say is your cost estimates for all three options are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay low!

Not sure why you say that. Prices are what the PoCo gave me and what current material prices are. I have a couple electrician friends to do the tie in for a fee.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Shop equipment would include table saw and dust collector, planer, possibly a drum sander, welder, possibly a plasma cutter, air compressor, lift, possibly a/c to take some humidity out in the summer.

Currently it is just me, but I can see my 2 boys doing projects with me when they are a little older.

I understand it is very unlikely that I would ever need 200a out there, but if I need to dig a trench and pull wire, I'm going to oversize so I won't have to do it again if I ever needed more power. Add in another panel in the house so I have space to pull wire out to the shop (maybe I could make space with some dual breakers without having to rewire the entire panel).

If the cost is almost equal, I guess I don't know why I would only run 100amp if I can get 200amp and do less of the work myself.

well you could always run the wire needed for 200a but breaker it at 60a or 100a and do the service upgrade later if you need it.

 

[ericm]

Not sure why you say that. Prices are what the PoCo gave me and what current material prices are.

The utility prices you gave are less than my Oregon utility charges for similar things. I will need the transformer to the house upgraded to deal with solar and they will charge me about $5k for that. They used to upgrade them for free until last year. I haven't priced services or upgrades for my California utility but I expect they cost much more than the Oregon one.

Lucky you!

 

[gregs]

Overhead or underground service? I ended up changing from overhead to underground service which gained my own pad mounted transformer. It also got read of the visual part that made the wife happier. I ended up going with a 320a service, meter at the house. Then I have 2 exterior disconnects (1-house, 1-shop), 200 amp panel in the house and 200 amp panel in the shop with just one meter. Been happy with it for the past 20 years.

My brother was in a similar situation but the shop was built further from the house and closer to his power pole. So he went with a separate meter on his shop, but he also runs a side hustle business out of it as well so it was better for that purpose.

 

[Mezz2006]

Overhead or underground service? I ended up changing from overhead to underground service which gained my own pad mounted transformer. It also got read of the visual part that made the wife happier. I ended up going with a 320a service, meter at the house. Then I have 2 exterior disconnects (1-house, 1-shop), 200 amp panel in the house and 200 amp panel in the shop with just one meter. Been happy with it for the past 20 years.

My brother was in a similar situation but the shop was built further from the house and closer to his power pole. So he went with a separate meter on his shop, but he also runs a side hustle business out of it as well so it was better for that purpose.

Underground service here. Shop is between house and transformer. Transformer is Blue dot, existing Meter on house and Panel in shop locations indicated by Red dots.

 

[gregs]

Another consideration... At the time I did mine, I was required to upgrade to current code which required an outdoor disconnect which I did not have. As soon as that goes between the meter and your existing panel, your ground and neutrals have to be isolated. I was lucky that my meter was very close (less than 6 feet) to my panel and that they used metal conduit. So I was able to use the conduit as my 4th "wire" from the new disconnect. Then I had to go in my panel and ad seperate isolated bars for the neutrals and grounds and reconfigure all that.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Poco around here will only add a second meter/service for "agricultural" buildings.

 

[NUTTSGT]

My shop has dedicated power. It makes it really convenient when looking at the electric bill to know what my 'hobbies' cost us each month.

Review the cost structure rate of the 2nd service. My utility rarely allows it, and if they do, it's not the 'cheap' residential rate.

If you anticipate having backup gen power on your property to serve both, then a single electrical service is preferable.

Yes and yes.

I have separate service for my garage as it was when I bought the place. It's nice having a second service at the shop. If something happens or doing certain work at one or the other, I still have power on the property.

The garage is rated as a "small general service." Not business but it is slightly higher and I do pay redundant charges that I would have if I only had one service here. I'm not changing it from what it is.


Seeing what I have and if the future holds up, we will buy my parents house which has a 200A service including a 60A off of is to the small bldg out back. I will need to build a new shop for what I need and considered another 200A service like I have here but it will be closer to the pole and basically between the pole and house. I believe I would seriously consider a 320A at the shop and run to the house or somethin along those lines. Time will tell.

I voted the 320A option but would do the 2nd 200A if need be.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Friend of a friend ...

Built a large garage/shop set back behind the house. The power pole was at the back of a "large" suburban lot (200'?). He ran overhead 400A service to the back of the garage into a large outside combination meter base/panel. In the panel were 2 - 200A breakers, one feed the garage (through the wall), the other feed the house, underground.

I am sure this was not cheap, but he is a sparky, so ...

 

[nadogail]

In my humble opinion you will be better off financially by having only one service and meter.
The second service might be billed at a Commercial Rate as opposed to a Residential Rate.

 

[Mezz2006]

In my humble opinion you will be better off financially by having only one service and meter.
The second service might be billed at a Commercial Rate as opposed to a Residential Rate.

Second service would also be billed as Residential Rate, with a 2nd meter fee of $0.165/day or $60.23/year.

 

[CoogarXR]

Second service would also be billed as Residential Rate, with a 2nd meter fee of $0.165/day or $60.23/year.

That's nice.

When I bought my current house, it had a 2nd service to the shop, and I was billed $50 a month base rate! That was using nothing but the garage door opener and a single florescent shop lamp when I first moved here. I ended up trenching and connecting the shop to the house. That work paid for itself pretty quickly with the savings.

 

[My Old Tools]

I have a 4000sf home with geo-thermal heat pump, resistance heat backup, double electric oven, washer/dryer, etc. Shop has 36k heat pump for AC/heat, welder, 13" metal lathe, mill, PM 66 saw, 18" planer, 16" jointer, 32" bandsaw, 14" bandsaw, 12" RAS, wood lathe, 10HP 3 phase gen, etc, etc, etc. Everything runs off a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp sub to the shop, all backed up by a 37kw Generac. You don't need two services or a service upgrade. You might want them, but you don't need them.

 

[RegeSullivan]

If I were as confident about the additional monthly fees for a second meter as you... I'd go for the second meter. That said it sounds to good to be true especially with no minium use charge.

 

[Mezz2006]

If I were as confident about the additional monthly fees for a second meter as you... I'd go for the second meter. That said it sounds to good to be true especially with no minium use charge.

Found on Alliant's website. Same as what the "Engineer" told me when I talked to him.

 

[RegeSullivan]

Found on Alliant's website. Same as what the "Engineer" told me when I talked to him.

My electric bill shows a similar fixed cost for the meter but it also has other fixed cost that total much more than the few cents/day meter cost. I am very happy for you if it works out the way you expect.