Upgrading House Electrical

[bczygan]

House built about 1941.

No grounded outlets.

Main service is an inside 60A fused panel (I call it "Old Sparky").

Main panel will be replaced with a 200A QO main breaker panel 30/40

OH service drop and service entrance cable and meter box will be upgraded.

Existing sub-panel in the basement that serves dryer and stove will be eliminated as stove and dryer are gas, and new main will have needed capabilities for any future ovens or cook-tops.

Gas furnace and water heater.

Garage shop will be another panel just like the main panel.

I would like to see the rest of the house wiring brought up to date, with adequate lighting and power for modern uses. In addition, I will need to serve metal working machines in the one car garage and woodworking in a future detached shop.

Exterior walls are wood frame with brick veneer and cellulose blown in insulation. House is 2 story with basement and slab on grade garage with powder room and back hall over crawlspace. 1,250SF total.

Obviously all the receptacles need replacing, and all existing wiring is that old cloth covered stuff.

What would need to be used for new wiring? In fishing Romex, what happens with fastening? I suppose all the existing boxes need replacing with old work ones. Walls are plaster board with skim coat. Hardwood floors.

I am thinking of creating an attic to basement chase in a closet for electrical and other wiring.

What say the experts? What are some of the details of good practices?

Bill

 

[Mustang51js]

Just staple the wires where you can, it will be a lot of work if you don't plan on taking down old plaster. A lot of times you can snake up chimney, vent pipe,or check to see if you have balloon framing.

 

[Aceman]

That QO is a good choice for a main panel. Also be aware that back in the day they ran a lot of 3 wire SE cable for subpanels, which isn't okay, even though it's been that way for years. It's ultimately up to you or your inspector if it needs to be changed or not.

Any Romex that is fished does not need to be fastened. I also realized long ago that it's much easier and less backbreaking to rip the bottom 2' off the walls than trying to fish everything from the attic or crawlspace.

 

[Wirepuller]

Balloon framing is a time saver. Horsehair plaster? Smash holes and cover with 1/2" blue board + plaster is doable. Asbestos will be found. Secure the wires where you can. Don't over think it.

 

[bczygan]

Just staple the wires where you can, it will be a lot of work if you don't plan on taking down old plaster. A lot of times you can snake up chimney, vent pipe,or check to see if you have balloon framing.

I know the house will be like Swiss cheese with all the holes.

Going to have to get some long drills and good fish tape.

What's the best way to wire from main to sub panel?

 

[Mustang51js]

All depends on where you want the sub panel, since you have to patch things up later just cut out plaster where you think you need to drill the holes to go horizontal with the beams. Going up to second floor I would cut out a chase or a foot top and bottom of wall studs to be able to get drill in there. Get a fiber fish and a metal fish snake. If you have knob and tubing in your house you might be better off going room by room and removing everything and then replace with new Sheetrock later.

 

[bczygan]

All depends on where you want the sub panel, since you have to patch things up later just cut out plaster where you think you need to drill the holes to go horizontal with the beams. Going up to second floor I would cut out a chase or a foot top and bottom of wall studs to be able to get drill in there. Get a fiber fish and a metal fish snake. If you have knob and tubing in your house you might be better off going room by room and removing everything and then replace with new Sheetrock later.

It's not THAT old!

I'm going to go horizontal in the basement and the attic and stub up or down for each outlet. That way I don't have to go around corners.

It's not horsehair plaster. It is a very thin skim coat over a very thick plaster board, not drywall in the modern sense.

How hard is it to pull old metal boxes and replace them? Or should I leave them in place? Is it possible to use the old wiring to pull the new Romex through the existing box?

Any other advice from the pros?

 

[Wirepuller]

Try to use the old wire as a snake. Pulling out the old boxes could damage the plaster. Use plastic old works with the internal screw against a stud where you can. Watch for wind bracing in the corners.

 

[volleyball]

I would keep "other " wires away from the electrical if they are signal wires. I would get a good metal snake, some fiberglass rods and some of those 3 - 4' drill bits to help fish the wires.
I've cut clean holes in plaster by scoring very well before you chip or cut away the box hole.
Maybe plan on wiring first floor from basement and second floor by attic. If your baseboards are wide, you can remove those and fish wire that way. Also, pick the less critical room and you can cut holes and do both sides of the wall with one hole.
If you are going to do this , it would be a good time to run coax and ethernet cables

 

[theoldwizard1]

Garage shop will be another panel just like the main panel.

Way over kill ! 100A more than adequate unless you plan on having several major tools running at the same time.

Obviously all the receptacles need replacing, and all existing wiring is that old cloth covered stuff.
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I suppose all the existing boxes need replacing with old work ones. Walls are plaster board with skim coat. Hardwood floors.

Depending on who is doing the plaster repair. It might be easier to make a large hole around the existing box (12"x12" ?) with a drywall saw or an oscillating multi-tool or a small router with a special "sideways" cutting bit. The point is, make it neat and reasonably square. Remove the old box and but back the cloth covered Romex. Drop in new Romex. Attach to stud if possible. Install new box. Cut blue board to fit your large hole with cut out for electrical box. You will need some kind of reinforcement behind the blue board where is meet the old plaster board/lath and of course drywall tape/mesh embedded in the first layer of mud.

A lot of this has to do with the person doing the plaster work.


You will need a good 1/2" drill. You might need a 3/8-1/2" 90° drill also. You will need a good auger bit and a couple of decent drill extensions. I also recommend a 72" flexible shaft, auger/spade bit. You can drop it through a hole in the wall, even at switch height, and it can drill through the bottom or top plate into the basement or attic.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Pulling out the old boxes could damage the plaster.

It is inevitable !

Make a big hole that is easier to patch.

 

[dfiler2]

I've replaced all the wire in two houses, the one I'm living in and a rental (I'm guessing there are electricians here who have done dozens or hundreds). One of the big challenges for me was the lights. In the rental the up stairs did not have hardwood floors so I pulled up strips of flooring over the downstairs lights and smaller sections over where the switches were located. I think I only had to cut about 4 long strips and a few smaller spots to drop wire down to the switches. I was able to fish wire between the floor joists from light to light in some cases. The house I'm in has hardwood upstairs but it has a knee wall and storage on each side so I was able to cut holes and push the wire between the joists. I was able to do both homes with almost no drywall/plaster repair. One tool I found really handy besides the fishing tape was one of these. http://www.datacomtools.com/store/540-15.html

A couple of months after I finished the last one I ran into this, which would have come in pretty handy.

 

[mdbeck1]

I've replaced all the wire in two houses, the one I'm living in and a rental (I'm guessing there are electricians here who have done dozens or hundreds). One of the big challenges for me was the lights. In the rental the up stairs did not have hardwood floors so I pulled up strips of flooring over the downstairs lights and smaller sections over where the switches were located. I think I only had to cut about 4 long strips and a few smaller spots to drop wire down to the switches. I was able to fish wire between the floor joists from light to light in some cases. The house I'm in has hardwood upstairs but it has a knee wall and storage on each side so I was able to cut holes and push the wire between the joists. I was able to do both homes with almost no drywall/plaster repair. One tool I found really handy besides the fishing tape was one of these. http://www.datacomtools.com/store/540-15.html

A couple of months after I finished the last one I ran into this, which would have come in pretty handy.

Thanks for the link. Pretty cool video. The link on the video leads to a website but not to the tool without some looking around. Magnepull http://www.specialized.net/Specialized/Magnepull-XP1000LC-LSS-Wire-Pulling-System-4792.aspx.

It's going on my Christmas list. I've got to wire the garage and there's already sheetrock on the walls. I would also like to redo the wiring in my house sometime in the future.

 

[Zeke]

It's not THAT old!

I'm going to go horizontal in the basement and the attic and stub up or down for each outlet. That way I don't have to go around corners.

It's not horsehair plaster. It is a very thin skim coat over a very thick plaster board, not drywall in the modern sense.

How hard is it to pull old metal boxes and replace them? Or should I leave them in place? Is it possible to use the old wiring to pull the new Romex through the existing box?

Any other advice from the pros?

That wall system was the bridge between gypboard lath, brown coat and putty coat and today's drywall. It was called CalWall and consisted of the board, a coat over the seams and a skim coat over the entire surface. The blue board system of today is just about the same. With some BB, mesh tape and some finish putty plaster you can make quick repairs to your walls.

Very forgiving and actually easier than finishing drywall. No sanding. Just not that many interior plasterers anymore. Best to DIY or find someone that can do Venetian plaster. They will be fast, especially if you run the patch panels.

 

[MadMechMaster]

I'm not too familiar with wiring from that time period, but is there conduit to all the outlets? My parents place, built in the 50's, had what looks like rubber and cloth covered conductors in conduit.

If not, is what you have something like an old appliance cord from that time period?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm not too familiar with wiring from that time period, but is there conduit to all the outlets? My parents place, built in the 50's, had what looks like rubber and cloth covered conductors in conduit.

Conduits were (and still are) only required in residences in a few areas of the country. Chicago area and parts of California, for certain.

Open Romex is allowed in garages in most areas.

 

[James-W]

How much insulation is in the house? If you don't have much insulation, and since you need to do new wiring, it may be best to knock the walls down, do the wiring, then do the insulating. That way you have a warmer house in the Winter and a cooler one in the Summer and you get all new wiring. I know it comes with a cost, but if you can swing it then I think it would be your best option for the long term.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP, code does allow adding a separate ground wire for retrofitting old 2wire outlets...

Conduits were (and still are) only required in residences in a few areas of the country. Chicago area and parts of California, for certain.

Open Romex is allowed in garages in most areas.

Really? What part of California? I wasnt aware of this...

 

[Beemer533]

This site has a ton of the type of tools you will need for this type of re-work..
http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/Electrician_Tools.htm

I've bought a lot of stuff from them since I moved into my 100 year old house..

 

[bczygan]

A lot of good info above.

The outside walls are full of blown in cellulose insulation.

I want to do as little damage to walls as possible, so more fish and drilling tools will be necessary.

Baseboards in liing and dining can be removed as I have taller baseboard to install.

200A QO value pack sub panel for garage was a $50 clearance, so even if overkill, It's what I will use. Maybe fed it with 100 or 150A breaker and wire.

I know I can add ground wire instead of full rewire. Am considering that. But I need additional outlets anyway. And additional lighting and communication and security and control systems.

What is state of the art for security, fire protection and home automation?

Bill

 

[n8n]

If you are just replacing the wiring utilizing the existing paths, I've actually had luck simply securely twisting and taping the new NM-B to the old rag wire and yanking hard from the attic. This pops the staples out of the studs just enough to let the rag wire pull through and the NM-B being smaller in overall size just comes along behind it.

This may or may not always work. If it doesn't, you're busting holes in the wall. C'est la vie.

You will probably have to knock the boxes out of the wall and replace with deep old work boxes as the original single gang boxes will be too small in capacity for current wire fill calcs. This will actually make your life easier pulling the wire if you have "lady's hands" and can reach through the holes in the wall where the boxes used to be. Also if you are replacing ceiling light fixture boxes consider using fan rated boxes and pulling the extra conductors to the switch location to add a ceiling fan later. You will thank yourself if you ever go to do this, and it'll add value to the house if/when you ever go to sell it.

Personally I would take this job in small chunks. First order of business is to upgrade the service and get your new breaker panel in place, just bring the old circuits into the new panel and tie into appropriately sized breakers. Then take one circuit at a time and upgrade it, this way most of your house will still be up and running while you're working.

Keep in mind depending on what edition of the NEC you are obligated to follow, you will need either AFCI breakers on the bedroom circuits, or on pretty much ALL living space circuits. This is not a bad thing, especially while the old rag wiring and devices are in place.

I'd consider if you think this will take a while to also install a GFCI receptacle at the beginning of each recep circuit. This will allow you to either install grounding type receps or use cheater plugs on devices with a grounding plug safely until you get a proper ground run to all locations.

Keep in mind also that you will likely want to pull a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom, and at least two 20A circuits dedicated to kitchen countertop receptacles. This is required by current code for new construction.

You may also want to consider installing hardwired smoke detectors while you're doing all this work. Those are also required by current code, and while you're in there thrashing might as well get it all done. Need one inside and outside each sleeping room plus one on each level that isn't provided by complying with the previous requirements. They should be pulled with 3 wire cable so they can be tandemed (if one alarms, they all sound.)

Finally, consider adding a whole house surge suppressor at the panel. I firmly believe that the fact that I did that at my last house saved a lot of my electronics when a storm brought down a tree and dropped some transmission lines on the 240V lines a block over. Lots of my neighbors lost tons of expensive stuff, I was back up and running after a couple hundred bucks in repair parts.

I probably will think of more... but that's a start

 

[bczygan]

If you are just replacing the wiring utilizing the existing paths, I've actually had luck simply securely twisting and taping the new NM-B to the old rag wire and yanking hard from the attic. This pops the staples out of the studs just enough to let the rag wire pull through and the NM-B being smaller in overall size just comes along behind it.

This may or may not always work. If it doesn't, you're busting holes in the wall. C'est la vie.

You will probably have to knock the boxes out of the wall and replace with deep old work boxes as the original single gang boxes will be too small in capacity for current wire fill calcs. This will actually make your life easier pulling the wire if you have "lady's hands" and can reach through the holes in the wall where the boxes used to be. Also if you are replacing ceiling light fixture boxes consider using fan rated boxes and pulling the extra conductors to the switch location to add a ceiling fan later. You will thank yourself if you ever go to do this, and it'll add value to the house if/when you ever go to sell it.

Personally I would take this job in small chunks. First order of business is to upgrade the service and get your new breaker panel in place, just bring the old circuits into the new panel and tie into appropriately sized breakers. Then take one circuit at a time and upgrade it, this way most of your house will still be up and running while you're working.

Keep in mind depending on what edition of the NEC you are obligated to follow, you will need either AFCI breakers on the bedroom circuits, or on pretty much ALL living space circuits. This is not a bad thing, especially while the old rag wiring and devices are in place.

I'd consider if you think this will take a while to also install a GFCI receptacle at the beginning of each recep circuit. This will allow you to either install grounding type receps or use cheater plugs on devices with a grounding plug safely until you get a proper ground run to all locations.

Keep in mind also that you will likely want to pull a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom, and at least two 20A circuits dedicated to kitchen countertop receptacles. This is required by current code for new construction.

You may also want to consider installing hardwired smoke detectors while you're doing all this work. Those are also required by current code, and while you're in there thrashing might as well get it all done. Need one inside and outside each sleeping room plus one on each level that isn't provided by complying with the previous requirements. They should be pulled with 3 wire cable so they can be tandemed (if one alarms, they all sound.)

Finally, consider adding a whole house surge suppressor at the panel. I firmly believe that the fact that I did that at my last house saved a lot of my electronics when a storm brought down a tree and dropped some transmission lines on the 240V lines a block over. Lots of my neighbors lost tons of expensive stuff, I was back up and running after a couple hundred bucks in repair parts.

I probably will think of more... but that's a start

That's a great start! And I will follow your suggestions.

Looking forward to further information.

A question. I watched a video where the guy used Noalox on not just the aluminum feeders into the main lugs in the panel, but on all the connections. Does this seem right?

Bill

 

[rsieracki]

I'm not too familiar with wiring from that time period, but is there conduit to all the outlets? My parents place, built in the 50's, had what looks like rubber and cloth covered conductors in conduit.

If not, is what you have something like an old appliance cord from that time period?

im *almost* done rewiring my home that had the same nasty wire in conduit... its filthy and desinegrates as you pull it out into a big eff'n mess all over the place.... i had almost all 4" metal boxes with a single gang plaster right. i vacuumed out the boxes as some had quite the pile of filth and bits rust in them after the wire was pulled.

...conduit is the easiest to rewire in a finished home

 

[bczygan]

So what exactly do AFCI's do?

Are they just faster GFCI's?

What circuits should NOT have them?

What is the largest size they make them in?

 

[volleyball]

AFCI are not GFCI's. How big do you want them to be? Plan on making all your outlets 221?

 

[n8n]

So what exactly do AFCI's do?

Are they just faster GFCI's?

What circuits should NOT have them?

What is the largest size they make them in?

They are and aren't GFCIs, if that makes any sense. I'll try to explain.

AFCI = Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter. They basically look for the electrical "noise" on the wires that an arcing connection makes, and will disconnect the circuit if it senses same. This is key if you have e.g. old aluminum wire that hasn't been remediated yet. Required for new construction but really gives you the most bang for your buck on older houses where the original wiring may be 50+ years old.

All the ones that I've seen also incorporate a GFCI, but they have a higher current imbalance threshold than a "real" GFCI device. I think a GFCI breaker or receptacle will trip at an imbalance (between hot and neutral) of 5 mA or thereabouts but the GFCI portion of an AFCI breaker trips at a higher value, I want to say about 30 mA. So that really does not protect a person from electrical shock; it's more for equipment protection at that threshold.

GFCIs are still required in potentially wet locations, e.g. the required receptacles on a kitchen countertop near a sink, or in a bathroom near the sink.

I believe current NEC requires AFCIs pretty much every living space in residential, although I don't have a copy of the current NEC to reference (actually on my list of Things To Do is to acquire same) so I'll wait for someone else to chime in on that one. The rev before current required them only in circuits serving sleeping rooms. I know I added an AFCI breaker at my last house when I rewired half the 2nd floor (where all the bedrooms were) and pulled a permit for same, the inspector I think gave me a little more respect when he saw the panel.

I've only seen AFCIs in 15 and 20A flavors; likely because those are the only two sizes you're likely to need.

 

[sberry]

As for grounding outlets with one wire,,, it can be done but if you can get that to it a new wire can be pulled, one several generations better.

 

[n8n]

As for grounding outlets with one wire,,, it can be done but if you can get that to it a new wire can be pulled, one several generations better.

Agreed, new wire is preferable. I have used the exception but only sparingly for that reason.

NM (original Romex) insulation was rated for a temperature of 60C. NM-B (current production Romex) introduced in the 80's I think? has 90C rated insulation. The latter is preferable especially for ceiling boxes where tight fitting light fixtures can cook the wire.

My last house had some rag wire with really nice insulation, most of it was in excellent shape after 60+ years of use, but if there were standards for temperature rating I'm not aware of what they were, so condition after many decades can be wildly variable. I've also seen some that required heat shrink on every wire end simply to replace a switch because the insulation crumbled when the device was pulled out of the box. Really wanted to rewire that place but it was a rental so...

 

[sberry]

You cant even legally hook a new light fixture to a cable from the 60's, heck some cloth is still fine but the plastic over the wire is old.
BTW, I see one of the guys from Old House repairing alum wire,,, ha I am going to throw out copper not much older and if I was adding my mega dream house to an old shack replacing the rest of the old wire would be high on my list especially if it was branch alum. and already 40 yrs old.

 

[sberry]

I just put the covers on one we pulled every wire, were no staples in the house, box clamps were not tight and as near as I can figure was never inspected and the wire obsolete the time it was installed.
It was switch loop wired and they switched the hot but energized the silver terminal and base of every fixture. Some additional work had been botched and I followed and replaced very piece right to the furnace chassis. Most of the recepts were polarized correctly but everywhere there was a switch had it reversed.
I didn't afci but did add a couple gfci, ground every connection, replace wire and a lot of boxes, I still switch loop but used a 3 conductor and added half a dozen circuits.

 

[sberry]

The holes were tight, may have been brace bored? We had to strip and fussy splice to pull to thru. Spec built 70's panel bedrooms. Full basement. If I had to do it again would change system design a bit but its done now. I really hadn't intended on a re wire when I started but the shate was so obsolete right from the weatherhead that one thing led to another and we had to open every box. Biggest mistak made was not backtracking at some point and start over with a little design changes and earlier decision to change it all vs repair.
I know better, one of my own jobs with part time attitude and part time help where I was hen pecking vs some earlier demolition which I ended up with anyway. Its been a while since I dunnit and the learning curve is hi, you are just getting to it by the time you are done.

 

[Falcon67]

FWIW - when I rewired our old house which was about 3/4 knob-and-tube, I mounted a new panel on the back of the house next to the old panels. I then pulled 12 runs into the attic in a central location and terminated those runs in boxes. I moved the incoming feed to the new panel and jumpered from that to the old boxes. Crude for a bit, but effective. There were 3 FP small panels and one GE two breaker panel on the wall, and three small weatherheads. A mess, sorry no pics. Then drew up a plan for what light(s) or outlet(s) would be on what circuit and went fishing wires one circuit group at a time back to the attic termination. That left everything hot except what I might be working on. Old cloth wire makes a good pull string. Only two old 12-2 no ground runs in an outside wall had staples. Those outlets got new outlets with no ground. Not tearing a wall down for two outlets.

 

[pistonbroke]

Someone already mentioned it, but I vote for removing the bottom 24" of plaster. It makes life a lot easier and lets you add receptacles where ever you want. You're going to need a drywaller to repair the plaster anyway and fishing wire in an old house is hit and miss at the best of times.
I've done a few houses and will never fish another. Good luck however you go about it.

 

[bczygan]

Some decisions:

No extra plasterboard removal.

No just adding ground wires. Will pull all new.

AFCI's? Wow are they expensive!!! Don't think they will be a part of the mix. Bad enough just doing GFCI's. Might add one or two later.

There is a $50 whole house surge protector by Leviton, at Home Depot. Might consider that. Will check to see if utility offers a meter base one.

More ideas?

 

[bgeery]

You cant even legally hook a new light fixture to a cable from the 60's, heck some cloth is still fine but the plastic over the wire is old.

My 1955 home wiring is in fine shape. Cloth jacket, but seems to have PVC-like insulation for the wires.

For 90C lighting fixtures, add a junction box next to the fixture and splice in at least an 18" section of 90C THHN wire (NEC 410.67C).

No need for new wire, unless the insulation (rubber) is crumbling off the wires.

 

[sberry]

For 90C lighting fixtures, add a junction box next to the fixture and splice in at least an 18" section of 90C THHN wire (NEC 410.67C).

 

[sberry]

I know this can be done but once we are in to it I am likely to go all the way. BTW, I bought a surge from the jobber, a SQD deal and it was around 20 or less. This is a place you can really help yourself if you are having a problem. Article 880 for phones. I used to have a regular problem and unplug all putters, since I grounded the phones right not n issue since.

 

[volleyball]

HD and Lowes sell the Square D one for $20something. Do add one to your panel.

 

[bczygan]

HD and Lowes sell the Square D one for $20something. Do add one to your panel.

Will do!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A whole house surge protector is a GREAD idea. Every house should have one...