Upset about permits and very frustrated

[Leitnin]

Sorry for the long post, there's no real question, I'm just annoyed. Any suggestions are appreciated (pay the $$$ and do it right is probably the only real solution though)

<rant>

Hi Guys,

I don't post here much and I mostly read and read and pass the time on here on GJ, but I'm just so darn annoyed I wanted to write it down.

I recently made the choice to go back to school (I'm 25) to get a masters degree blah blah blah, anyway, I bought a house in San Luis Obispo, California and I brought my huge miller 340a/bp welder with me from San Diego which I picked up not working for 300 bucks and promptly fixed for next to nothing, hooray.

Whats bugging me today enough to post about? Permits. I bought this house because its a nice place near school, decent house, converted duplex, smallish but nice and deep 2 car garage. I can't live anywhere with an HOA which is just about everywhere nowadays, since they won't let you work on cars and people get mad about using power tools in the middle of the day so I settled on this house.

So here I am with a 200amp main on the exterior wall facing the detached garage 5 feet away. there's a couple circuits that run down 10 or so inches under a concrete path, and up to a box on the outside wall of the garage where they go in to feed the washer, dryer, lights etc.

Well, that's not going to do it for my welder, or anything else I wanted to add to the "shop" like a powder-coating oven I have yet to build. So okay, no biggie, some conduit, a bit of #2 wire, a ground, a 100 amp sub panel and a couple 50A receptacles and wire, no biggie.

Now I'm a grad student and I don't have a job yet since I'm still settling into life here and getting back to a student schedule. I've always maintained just about a 4.0 and school takes precedence for me so I'm not in big spender mode.

So whats the problem? Oh nothing, just the $400 inspection fee on top of the permit fees and taxes etc that make adding this stuff pretty absurd. Now its not that I couldn't pay for it and go about my business, but I just can't believe how much money they want to for someone to come out and look at the work I'm doing myself. Maybe its just that the last guy who inspected something missed about 15 problems that I identified within 5 or so minutes (not my work), or just the sheer cost, but I just couldn't believe how much money they want. Really makes the overall cost of the project get pretty unreasonable.

Contemplated removing an old 50A circuit to the backyard for a spa thats no longer here and just running one circuit, no subpanel, nothing fancy, but still, they want $200 bucks to inspect that.

It almost makes more sense for me to just stick a 50A breaker in the box with a long cable off it when I'm using it and disconnect it otherwise. Totally ridiculous but jeez, it's like they are making it too expensive to do it right for a competant DIYer! As if the cost of the wire wasn't enough to make the project look foolish in terms of cost.

I don't really want to cut corners, and I know I can do the work to code but man oh man, it'll cost more to have it checked than to do the whole job.

UGH

</rant>

 

[motodavid2000]

Now its not that I couldn't pay for it and go about my business, but I just can't believe how much money they want to for someone to come out and look at the work I'm doing myself.

I don't really want to cut corners, and I know I can do the work to code but man oh man, it'll cost more to have it checked than to do the whole job.

UGH </rant>

I understand what you are saying. For the record, I believe in codes for safety and reliability. However, IMHO the government is just too intrusive, omnipotent and heavy-handed.

1) Its California (Kommiefornia)

2) Your tax dollars at work - you pay the inspector's salary via your income taxes + you get to pay the fees

Doesn't get any better than that, right?.

 

[Leitnin]

I understand what you are saying. For the record, I believe in codes for safety and reliability. However, IMHO the government is just too intrusive, omnipotent and heavy-handed.

100% agreement. I'm doing engineering design all the time and I believe the code exists for exactly those reasons and why I want to do this to code, but man oh man, the cost to have it inspected....Sheesh.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

100% agreement. I'm doing engineering design all the time and I believe the code exists for exactly those reasons and why I want to do this to code, but man oh man, the cost to have it inspected....Sheesh.

$400 does seem like an excessive inspection fee to me too.

Perhaps you could call your mayor's office and see if they could cut you some slack?

Phil

 

[GarageEnvy]

Some interesting parallels in our lives. 1) I just finished up grad school so I know about not being in spender mode. 2) I just had my electrical panel temporarily located and inspected. 3) I lived in SLO for 2 years while I went to college. Granted, that was in the early 90's but at the time SLO was adamantly against growth of any kind. They were almost proud of how few (39 I believe was the number) building permits they issued per year. You'd see SLO growth bumper stickers everywhere. Obviously from all the new downtown construction a lot of that has changed but still, the mentality exists and they have to generate revenue. NO, I am NOT defending the $400. My fee for my electrical inspection was $125. That was for the temporary meter location setup and a permanent subpanel to hold the house circuits. Even that seemed excessive for 10 minutes worth of grumbling with a reluctant approval (long story). As you've probably already discovered, SLO is comprised of college students and retirees. Guess who runs the show? Kudos for doing things the right way, but it's no wonder so many people do things w/o permits. My advice from a former SLO resident, either do it w/o permits (if you are sure you can do it to code and safely) and accept whatever consequences come down the road later or "go with the flow" pay the $400 and move on. I drove a large, loud and lifted 4x4 when I lived there and I learned early on, conforming and not making waves is the way to go in that town.

 

[rodnok1]

Hell if I'd pay that for an inspection, so they get 400 dollars an hour for inspections huh... that seems fair. Do it yourself and to hell with the inspections.

 

[MrMark]

Ridiculous. Incredibly excessive amounts. You should have never gone in for a permit. That was your first mistake. They make the process so difficult and so expensive that no one goes thru it. It might be worth it if it really was a second set of eyes that knew what they were doing looking over your work, but that won't be the case. You will get a cursory inspection with perhaps a check of nickle and dime stuff but not anything important. It's all about money for the City.

 

[WNYflyer]

Yep, sounds like New York State where I am. So many states in dire financial straights that every dollar counts and anyway to take a taxpayers dollar rules. In these times the money the inspectors/municipality brings in could be saving their jobs.

I work in industrial design also and for those locations most local inspectors only want to know about what you are doing with water and sewers. You should see what the municipalities get paid to permit/inspect those jobs when a majority of the work they would have no clue how to inspect. Of course most of that stuff is so outside the "norm" that they can't be expected to know the stuff.

Try to look at the cost over the long term if you can. Of course being a college student every dollar is that much more important.

 

[mrb]

how many circuits run to the detached garage now?

 

[JBurgess]

I live in a suburb of Phoenix, $90 for an electric permit and that includes the inspection.

I guess it's just the cost of living in Cali.

 

[mrb]

I live in a suburb of Phoenix, $90 for an electric permit and that includes the inspection.

I guess it's just the cost of living in Cali.

not every city in Cali is that expensive. Its usually under 100 from what I have seen. Maybe we're not getting the entire story, maybe the $400 is an inspection fee for previous illegal work. They will count your breakers and compare against what they have permits for.

 

[Leitnin]

You should have never gone in for a permit. That was your first mistake.

That was the first mistake I have not yet made. I simply inquired without providing my address as to the cost of the particular permit and inspection. I may do silly things sometimes but I'm no fool

There are i believe 3 circuits running into the garage jam packed into a 1" (maybe it was 1.25) conduit. There's plenty of room in the main panel, so Its probably more cost effective to just run several circuits. (I sorta wanted to run a sub-panel for organization and future expansion without dealing with the conduit)

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Leitnin]

not every city in Cali is that expensive. Its usually under 100 from what I have seen. Maybe we're not getting the entire story, maybe the $400 is an inspection fee for previous illegal work. They will count your breakers and compare against what they have permits for.

They have no knowledge of any prior anything. Thats simply the quote to inspect a new sub-panel with 3 circuits. Perhaps they don't have the whole story, but just adding ONE circuit off my main, no sub no nothing, they want $175 just for the inspection plus the permit, tax etc puts it over $200..

....for one circuit.

 

[Aceman]

That inspection fee is pretty ridiculous.

Maybe this years inspections are down and they're trying to make up for it by raising prices, like the post office does with stamps all the time. I wish I could give you a comparison on what permit costs are here, but our office guy handles that stuff so I don't really pay much attention to it.

 

[mrb]

That was the first mistake I have not yet made. I simply inquired without providing my address as to the cost of the particular permit and inspection. I may do silly things sometimes but I'm no fool

There are i believe 3 circuits running into the garage jam packed into a 1" (maybe it was 1.25) conduit. There's plenty of room in the main panel, so Its probably more cost effective to just run several circuits. (I sorta wanted to run a sub-panel for organization and future expansion without dealing with the conduit)

I appreciate the feedback.

You cant have more than one circuit (a MWBC counts as one circuit) running to a detached structure.

How does 3 circuits 'jam pack' a 1" conduit? Is the conduit full of romex?

Did you have an inspection done when you bought the place?

 

[Leitnin]

You cant have more than one circuit (a MWBC counts as one circuit) running to a detached structure.

How does 3 circuits 'jam pack' a 1" conduit? Is the conduit full of romex?

Did you have an inspection done when you bought the place?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was done improperly to begin with. There are several things I've discovered about this house that don't seem quite right. I will post details of the current wiring and maybe you can clarify for me.

Thanks

 

[GarageEnvy]

The fee is high and I certainly wouldn't blame you for skipping it and going DIY but also consider this....you are a grad student and may only be in SLO for a couple of years. I know 2 was my limit. When you go to sell you should disclose the work that was done w/o a permit. Is that a big deal? Probably not but it may be penny wise and pound foolish in the long run if you end up removing it when you leave. Just a thought. I'm skeptical of the "counting breakers" as noted above. I had a panel upgrade done in 2001 w/permits and inspected. Then I proceeded to rewire the whole house w/o permits. It resulted in the need for tandem breakers and a pretty full box plus a 100 amp subpanel. Then 2 weeks ago I had the inspector back out to check on that new temporary service panel and permanent sub with all those circuits. They never said a word about it, but I was nervous.

 

[hilld]

Why not just put the new 100A panel in and consider it temporary, when you are getting ready to sell, just pull it all back out.

Play dumb and say what panel, what 100A service in the garage, look no evidence.

D.

 

[BioHazard]

What are these permits and inspections you speak of?

 

[35mastr]

Do the work to code on a weekend. Then call it a day and keep your 400.00.

 

[red]

Had the same problem 6yrs ago with my pool $450 for the inspection and UL cert It was more than the cost of the materials. And there was no DIY went to County to take open book test and found out no longer "allowed" Do you think it's coincidence that the Electric Board is staff by union people and electrical contractors. And to add insult to injury the guy had the balls to tell me it was for my own good!

 

[LoneGunman]

As an electrician I can say I have never heard of a permit/inspection fee that high for what you are doing. No way in hell I'd pay that if it was my own house, a customer yes as I'd have no choice and wouldn't risk the liability involved with unpermitted work.

 

[Leitnin]

Okay here goes:

Shot of the gate showing the garage is detached and the approximate distance of cable runs. The box on the right is where the wires emerge from under the path and run into the garage wall and are distributed from there in the garage attic space.

Shot of the house side of the setup including ground rod and pvc conduit. The box on the left continues to the garage, the box on the right is a no longer in use 50A circuit for a spa in the backyard that is no longer there:

Here is the main panel. Note that Breakers 2,4,6,8,9 all run into that conduit to the garage. The house used to be a duplex so the household wiring is all sent to a north and south subpanel in the house.

Shot of the wiring from the main. You can see 2,4,6,8,9 running into that conduit.

From what I'm understanding, this should not have passed inspection as the garage is detached and should have been fed by a single circuit feeder, 4 wire only according to 2008 NEC, to a subpanel with its own ground rod and distributed from there.

In that case, my plan would be to remove the 1" conduit and wiring, install a 1-1/4" or larger conduit in the same location, 12" under the path according to table 300.5, come up into the garage to a subpanel, with another ground rod drivin on the garage side of the path, and run 3 #2 THHN THWN wires and a #6 THHN THWN ground.

I have also been noticing it looks like I could run a 125A sub with this same wiring.

Any advice from all my experts here?

 

[sdowney717]

If your certain of doing a proper good job, then I would go for it.

wouldn't risk the liability involved with unpermitted work

I wonder if there was a fire, etc... would the insurance refuse to pay.
what would happen years after unpermitted work was done and the home had changed owners. This must happen to people. But perhaps only if an inspection showed code violations.

 

[MrMark]

They have no way of knowing who did what when. The only way you could get in trouble is with a red tag and that isn't going to happen here unless the poster has enemies that peer in his yard. I doubt the fantastic cracks on CSI Miami could figure it out when something was done and whether said person had a permit.

 

[MrMark]

I would double check that burial depth. Down south here they made us go 36".

 

[sdowney717]

here in VA newport news it is 24 inch depth for power and water lines.

 

[MrMark]

You should put a cover plate over that missing KO in the dead front. Home Depot has them.

 

[JBurgess]

There does seem to be a few issues that may need to be addressed if there is an inspection. These are things that likely would questioned where I am at.

As for the garage being attached or detached, that call is up to city. Some localities if the separation is less than the minimum distance required between buildings, they are considered one building. This is applied mostly in figuring setback requirements, but then carries over into other parts of the code. As mentioned if it considered detached then only one feed is allowed.

The breaker on the left labeled Garage outlets is fed with a green wire re-identified as black. That is not acceptable.

It is not clear, but looks like the feeds to the 2 sub panels in the house are 3 wire feeds. Perhaps they are fed with conduit and it is the ground, but best guess is they were left in their original condition with the neutral and ground bonded in each sub panel.

The two bare wires that I assume are the ground rods attach to lugs mounted to the panel. Those need to be threaded screws and not sheet metal screws. Also not sure if the lug is rated for 2 wires.

The feed to the garage appears to have 2 ground wires, both look like 12 ga. I think a #10 would be required for the dryer.

Also tape the ends of wires not being used for the hot tub.

 

[JBurgess]

If the PVC is 1" schedule 40 then you could fit 3-#3 copper and 1-#8 copper for the ground and use a 100 amp breaker, saving you from replacing the conduit.

 

[egdede]

They have no way of knowing who did what when...I doubt the fantastic cracks on CSI Miami could figure it out when something was done and whether said person had a permit.

Romex is date coded now, I'm not sure about thhn etc...

 

[MrMark]

Romex is date coded now, I'm not sure about thhn etc...

well, OK, that's a good point. I guess the same would apply to leaving UPC stickers on things. If someone is going to do some "excavating" and then search the permit history and let's say we find some romex from 2004 and no permit activity after 2003 then they could raise something I suppose. You could "launder" all prior work by simply pulling a permit to replace a few circuits, get it inspected and then be done with it if you were really worried about it. Once it is of record that you had a permit in say 2010 and replaced circuits there is no way of knowing that those unpermitted romex runs from 2004 were not simply old stock wire and done under the permit of 2010.

 

[nate379]

Wow glad I don't have to deal with any of that b/s!

I was looking at Anchorage permit fees and to replace a water heater it's a $175 permit.

 

[Leitnin]

If the PVC is 1" schedule 40 then you could fit 3-#3 copper and 1-#8 copper for the ground and use a 100 amp breaker, saving you from replacing the conduit.

would it be possible to provide me with the NEC code that would allow #3 and #8 to be used for 100A feeder? I am not finding anything specifically supporting the numbers, although by your very clear command of the subject I don't doubt you in the least. I'd just like to document everything.

There does seem to be a few issues that may need to be addressed if there is an inspection. These are things that likely would questioned where I am at.

As for the garage being attached or detached, that call is up to city. Some localities if the separation is less than the minimum distance required between buildings, they are considered one building. This is applied mostly in figuring setback requirements, but then carries over into other parts of the code. As mentioned if it considered detached then only one feed is allowed.

The breaker on the left labeled Garage outlets is fed with a green wire re-identified as black. That is not acceptable.

It is not clear, but looks like the feeds to the 2 sub panels in the house are 3 wire feeds. Perhaps they are fed with conduit and it is the ground, but best guess is they were left in their original condition with the neutral and ground bonded in each sub panel.

The two bare wires that I assume are the ground rods attach to lugs mounted to the panel. Those need to be threaded screws and not sheet metal screws. Also not sure if the lug is rated for 2 wires.

The feed to the garage appears to have 2 ground wires, both look like 12 ga. I think a #10 would be required for the dryer.

Also tape the ends of wires not being used for the hot tub.

Spot on in all respects. If I recall correctly, and I am fairly certain, the garage is listed as detached according to the city information. Not a big concern in terms of what I have planned. The wires to the dryer are 10 in fact 10 gauge (when I put in the new dryer, I had to run a neutral through the length of conduit as they decided to save the 10 feet of wire and only send 3-wire to the dryer outlet.

Like I said, when this was previously inspected, how could they have overlooked and allowed all these circuits as well as the recolored green used as black. Why I feel like its absurd to pay $400 for someone not to even know. Its just a cost of changing to pass the buck of liability. Doesn't matter if its right, just matters than someone else is to blame. Whats the world come to.

Thanks for your keen eye from such a shadowed picture. Amazing.



As far as the burial depth, I was looking at this table considering the concrete pathway there is more than 2" thick and not subject to vehicular traffic.

 

[JBurgess]

would it be possible to provide me with the NEC code that would allow #3 and #8 to be used for 100A feeder? I am not finding anything specifically supporting the numbers, although by your very clear command of the subject I don't doubt you in the least. I'd just like to document everything.

grounding conductor size from table 250.122
#3 copper from table 310.16 using THWN wire

Should have mentioned I used THWN wire for the conduit fill calc.

 

[Leitnin]

Great! I seemed to recall somewhat of a some inspectors do, some don't allow use of that table or something. I never really understood how that worked. Granted this probably won't be inspected at this time, but still...I am always interested in understanding to the fullest.

 

[JBurgess]

Great! I seemed to recall somewhat of a some inspectors do, some don't allow use of that table or something.

That would be table 310.15(B)(6)

I should let someone with knowedge on trench depths answer, but I think you should go the 18". The 2" of concrete I have seen is always at the bottom of the trench on top of the conduit.

Your application looks more like the one described as under 4" slab, but your slab does not extend 6" beyond the conduit.

 

[Leitnin]

Well, If that's the case, then I won't be able to re-use the pre-existing conduit, but that's fine too. I'd much rather do it right.

Maybe someone can chime in with an authoritative stance on the burial depth or perhaps a local electrician can tell me. If not, I'll go 18" to be safe.

 

[JBurgess]

Well, If that's the case, then I won't be able to re-use the pre-existing conduit, but that's fine too. I'd much rather do it right.

Maybe someone can chime in with an authoritative stance on the burial depth or perhaps a local electrician can tell me. If not, I'll go 18" to be safe.

Or put 2" of concrete on top of the part not under the 4" slab.

 

[paranoid56]

yep, i am going to say just do the work to code and not worry about it.