Upsizing Subpanel....anything I'm missing?

[Angelfire]

Hiya Folks,
When we built the shop, the electrician installed an Eaton BR1224N125 panel as a subpanel being fed from the house. Now that I'm back from overseas I'm looking to get the shop finally built out. I've determined that I'm going to need a bigger panel than what was installed, not for additional capacity but just physically can't get the number of breakers I need in it. I'm planning for 8 240V runs, 3 more 120V recept runs, and 2 additional lighting ckts. So this has me looking to upsize to the BR2040B150 panel. I'm not all that familiar with breaker designations and the industry lingo but essentially I'd be going from a "Convertible Main" (designated as the N in the first model number above) to a "Main Breaker" (designated as the B in the second model number). Will this be a problem? I have no intention of upsizing the breaker as my feeds were sized for the first box (incidentally, my 125A panel above is feed from a 100A breaker in the house....so wire size is there for 100A only). Now, I'm a bit concerned that the layout of knockouts etc.. might cause some issues with the bigger box. I already have a few circuits fed into it and of course the feeders are there. Is the philosophy when changing a box to align the new panel as best as you can to the feeders and then extend the circuits inside the panel box if necessary? I'd rather not do this (and would probably just re-run the existing circuits anyway as I plan to relocate some anyway (ie. lighting)). I assume I can cut new knockouts if need be to achieve this but suspect that would affect the neutral/ground busses.

I have seen there is no minimum height requirement for a panel so if it extends lower than it currently is, I shouldn't have an issue (unless you wise folks know differently?). Bottom of panel is about 4.5' at the moment so I am not anticipating this to be an issue.

Sorry for the ramble, just trying to get my head around this before I jump in.
Cheers.

 

[ishiboo]

There is no minimum height requirement, just a maximum. If you are able to easily adjust all the existing circuits that aren't long enough, I'd go that route... otherwise you can nut and extend within the panel or externally.

The philosophy when changing a box depends on the goal, for most people having an electrician do the work it's to minimize the cost which means doing whatever you can to not have to splice/replace. For many of us on GJ, it's making the new install look as clean and functionally perfect as possible.

As soon as the cover's on, nobody is going to know if some of those are wire nutted or not... or that the junction box on the side of the panel with a solid cover is used for splicing.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks. I should have mentioned that my shop is just framed out with no rock on the walls etc....so I've got a pretty open pallete to work with. I suppose putting a J-box off to the side wouldn't be the end of the world nor would a few extra wire nuts in the panel. So align the new panel to work with the feeders and then handle the circuits accordingly.

Cheers.

 

[sberry]

Add another panel where the large loads are going to be. Just for giggles what are the 8 240 for?

 

[pinkerton]

I second the subpanel argument. Just install a breaker in the existing panel to feed the sub. As long as your loads don't exceed the main capacity of the primary (which you said they wont)

 

[Shiftless]

Add another panel where the large loads are going to be. Just for giggles what are the 8 240 for?

I was thinking of asking that question as well.
Just for personal use?

 

[pinkerton]

wait a minute - did you look into larger breakers with double taps, halfwidth breakers, etc?

 

[Angelfire]

Hiya Folks,
Yeah, I think adding a second panel would be a better route after looking at available panels, sizes and the fact that I have very little feeder hanging out of the wall.

Regarding the 240V circuits, each is dedicated as I understand you cannot have more than one recept per circuit.....perhaps I am wrong on this. This is a detached garage.

Here's what I was looking at for the 240V circuits:

1. TIG welder- 50A
2. MIG welder- 30A
3. Air Compressor-20A
4. Future for Mini-Split - 30A
5. Tablesaw - 20A
6. Jointer- 20A
7. Future for auto lift - 20A
8. Dust collector - 30A

I could use the MIG on the TIG circuit but that still leaves 7 to deal with. The other that I could possibly combine would be the tablesaw and jointer as I'd never be running both at the same time and the two would be located relatively close together but I am trying to avoid cords all over the place.

As for half-width breakers, yeah I can definitely use those for the 120V circuits was not aware of half width being available for 240V (at least the Eaton catalog I've been viewing don't show them).

After a quick search, it it appears I may be able to have multiple receptacles on single circuits.....can someone chime in to confirm? If that's the case, it definitely makes things a bit easier (and cheaper!) as I can combine many of the above into multi-receptacle circuits.

Cheers and thanks for the help!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

U said the panel u want to change out is fed by a panel directly above it?

Another vote for an additional subpanel.

Way easier less headache and cheaper to add another panel than to try and swap panels.

 

[lametec]

Yes, you can have multiple receptacles on a 240V circuit.

They also make quad breakers like this:

Which will let you have two 120V circuits and one 240V circuit, or two 240V circuits using only 2 spots in the panel.

Your current panel has 12 spots, with a total of 24 circuits allowed.

 

[Angelfire]

U said the panel u want to change out is fed by a panel directly above it?

Another vote for an additional subpanel.

Way easier less headache and cheaper to add another panel than to try and swap panels.

No, this panel is fed from the house 100+ feet away. But yes, I agree, a subpanel off of this sub-panel (in the shop) seems to be the way to go.
Cheers.

 

[Angelfire]

Yes, you can have multiple receptacles on a 240V circuit.

They also make quad breakers like this:

or this:

Which will let you have two 120V circuits and one 240V circuit, or two 240V circuits using only 2 spots in the panel.

Lots of conflicting info out there regarding 240V multi-outlets but it does seem correct that you can have more than one receptacle (hell, it's allowed on 120V to virtually no limit!). I do have a number of the items I listed that would need to be dedicated such as the air compressor, dust collector, and mini-split.

And I had forgotten all about the quad breakers....that could certainly help as well.

That's why I love this forum, it helps me remember **** I've forgotten over the years!
Cheers

 

[theoldwizard1]

Another vote for an additional subpanel. Worse case would be TIG (or plasma cutter when you buy one ), compressor and A/C. You might have to turn one of those off when you are using the other 2.

 

[sands35]

What I did (more or less the same as you)

1. TIG welder- 50A
2. MIG welder- 30A

3. Air Compressor-20A - Follow NEC unless it is a common 240VAC 60 gallon plug in one.

NEC motor calculator:
Schneider Motor NEC calculator

4. Future for Mini-Split - 30A - needs to run to an outside disconnect

5. Tablesaw - 20A and Jointer- 20A - shared, not going to use both at once.

7. Future for auto lift - 20A - if you know what you want and where it is going, then put the j-box in the ceiling. Unless you plan on a conduit in the floor.

8. Dust collector - 30A - probably don't need a 30A unless it is huge. 20A is likely OK.

After a quick search, it it appears I may be able to have multiple receptacles on single circuits.....can someone chime in to confirm? If that's the case, it definitely makes things a bit easier (and cheaper!) as I can combine many of the above into multi-receptacle circuits.

Cheers and thanks for the help!

Yes you can. The only real limit is what you expect to put on the circuits. For 120, there really isn't a limit. For 240, most common table saws and such run at ~10 amps or so after startup. So one 240/30 amp circuits for all the woodworking stuff should be fine. Though I'd probably put the dust collector on it's own as that is, typically, a fixed piece of equipment.

 

[Angelfire]

What I did (more or less the same as you)

1. TIG welder- 50A
2. MIG welder- 30A

3. Air Compressor-20A - Follow NEC unless it is a common 240VAC 60 gallon plug in one.

NEC motor calculator:
Schneider Motor NEC calculator

4. Future for Mini-Split - 30A - needs to run to an outside disconnect

5. Tablesaw - 20A and Jointer- 20A - shared, not going to use both at once.

7. Future for auto lift - 20A - if you know what you want and where it is going, then put the j-box in the ceiling. Unless you plan on a conduit in the floor.

8. Dust collector - 30A - probably don't need a 30A unless it is huge. 20A is likely OK.




Yes you can. The only real limit is what you expect to put on the circuits. For 120, there really isn't a limit. For 240, most common table saws and such run at ~10 amps or so after startup. So one 240/30 amp circuits for all the woodworking stuff should be fine. Though I'd probably put the dust collector on it's own as that is, typically, a fixed piece of equipment.

Thanks Sands!
Appreciate the confirmation. I will however tie my lift recept to the jointer/tablesaw as I can't see any two of them being run in parallel ever so a little savings there. And I haven't bottomed out on the dust collector yet only to say I'm looking at a 5hp unit which upon further investigation, probably requires a 40A circuit to fall within NEC guidelines.....I'll keep researching this before biting the bullet. I've got plenty of other things to do before running this circuit so have time to sort it out.
Cheers.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No, this panel is fed from the house 100+ feet away. But yes, I agree, a subpanel off of this sub-panel (in the shop) seems to be the way to go.
Cheers.

Ok does this panel have a main breaker?

 

[Angelfire]

Ok does this panel have a main breaker?

The panel in the garage (ie. subpanel) does have a main breaker on it. Given I would be putting the new sub-panel right next to it or at most, one cavity over, I shouldn't need another main disconnect and could go with just a main lug panel, correct?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The panel in the garage (ie. subpanel) does have a main breaker on it. Given I would be putting the new sub-panel right next to it or at most, one cavity over, I shouldn't need another main disconnect and could go with just a main lug panel, correct?

Correct