URGENT Sailor Friend Asking for Diesel Help

[Bolster]

Sailor Friend Asking for Diesel Help

I have an urgent issue, I need help from mechanics familiar with diesel.

My college roommate Reeves is single-handing (sailing alone) from San Francisco to Tahiti. He's currently mid-Pacific, another two weeks before he makes landfall if all goes well. He communicates to me via a low baud radio modem going out over single side band radio to a shore node that converts and sends to the internet.

I'm posting here because of the many friends I have on this sub-forurm that may be able to help; sorry if it's technically in the wrong forum but this is somewhat urgent and I want to post where my friends will see & can help. Mods please consider leaving the post here until I can get some answers to my friend Reeves. I'd not normally post here except the issue is urgent.

My roommate misremembers my youthful experience in the shop; he thinks I'm a diesel mechanic! (I wish-- I most certainly am not). He is asking me to contact his home shop, as well as "provide my opinion" of what the problem may be. The reason he needs the engine running is that he's now in the Doldrums (last reported position position: 03.18.990N by 130.28.187W) and will need to motor when there's no wind, which is often the case in that portion of the Pacific. Of course, the Doldrums is where the engine decides to act up. Also he's under heavy cloud cover and his solar cells aren't charging (they run communications & everything else electrical) so he needs the engine running for that purpose, too.

Frankly, I'm a little concerned for him.

The engine is a 1972 Perkins 4108, or possibly 4-108, or 4.108. Found a bit of info here: http://www.tadiesels.com/perkins-4108.html

In his own words now:

-----------

Boat: Murre
Make: Mariner 31
Engine: Perkins 4108, 1972

Previous, related work done: Oct 2010--I reported water in the oil (condensate and rust spots on oil fill cap); shop pressure tested the coolant system extensively and reported no leak in oil cooler. Dec 2010--From San Diego I report water in oil again. After discussions with shop, it is decided we should replace the raw water pump; no signs of water detected after...

Current Issue:

When attempting to start engine 10 days ago, engine would not start smoothly or immediately as is usual. Instead engine cranked for 10 seconds, only firing about half the time, and one piston sounded stuck for a few revolutions (this has happened two or three times in the last ten years). When engine did start, it ran fine and as per normal for the hour I used it to charge batts. Four days ago, same issue: failure to start easily but ran fine. On neither occasion was any water or anything unusual detected in the oil (I did not check the cap either of these times).

Today,
-Before starting the engine I checked the oil dip stick, and the oil was sludgey and clotted. Water was on the upper part of the stick and it had started to corrode. The oil was black, not milky.
-I checked the oil fill cap and saw water droplets under which there was rust.
-I failed to taste the water to see if it was fresh or salt or coolant at this point.

-The engine started roughly as per the last two attempts but ran as normal once started--I ran it for an hour.
-No unusual exhaust gas was noticed (not black, not white--clear exhaust).
-Water expulsion from exhaust system seemed normal.

-After shutting engine down, I checked cap where several large drops of water had formed (I'd dried it off before starting the engine). I tasted this water and it was FRESH (condensate?).

***

Related information:

-I changed the oil and filter in December 2010 and on April 27, 2011. No water was noticed on the fill cap or in the removed oil at either point nor the numerous times the engine has ran in between. In fact, the water pump change in December had seemed to solve the problem.

-Just after the April 27 oil change, I ran the engine for 20 plus continuous hours (motored La Paz to Cabo San Lucas) with no apparent problems.

-The heat exchanger was replaced in 2006; the oil cooler and coolant system tested in Oct; and raw water pump replaced in Dec 2010. What's left?

-I replaced the raw water pump myself and I notice that there is a very tiny oil seep under it. Is is possible I did a poor job of gasket placement and could that be the source?

-I am currently on passage between Cabo San Lucas and the Marquesas Islands:
-Seas have not been rough, but the boat has been in constant motion for over two weeks--could water have entered the engine via the exhaust system? (Again, I've sailed Murre in SF bay in much rougher weather for years without encountering this issue.)
-Weather has been hot and extremely humid for many days now, and the boat has received torrential rains on several occasions. Little or no water could have gotten into the engine room itself, BUT could the unusual humidity be effecting moister contents in the engine?

-I have five gallons of fresh oil aboard but only two filters (dumb)--so I can perform two solid oil changes and one more that leaves an older filter in place.

-I am in the doldrums (01.40N by 130.30W) and though have had consistent wind to this point, it is petering out. I may need the engine to keep forward momentum as early as tomorrow.

-I put the throttle lever in full reverse when the engine is NOT running, this to get it out of the way so that I don't sit on it and break it. Three or four starts ago I forgot to put it back in the upright position before starting the engine--then as I grabbed for it, a wave knocked me out of reach. Upshot: from a "cold" start, the engine revved all the way up (3 - 5 seconds) before I could get the throttle back to neutral. My current issues began on the next engine start.

Question:

-Can the issue be diagnosed from this email?
-What can be done while I am underway to protect the engine from serious damage and/or make it safely operable before next port of call.
-Baring resolution now, what should be done once I reach Hiva Oa (assuming there are any facilities there at all)?

Apologies for long email (just trying to be complete) and thank you in advance for any assistance.

 

[rockchucker]

Sounds like a Blown Head Gasket. He could try some Bar's Leaks or Alumaseal but it is not going to fix the issue. He needs to bite the bullet and fix it before he gets into serious trouble.

His Cold Start to full throttle for 5-6 seconds probably did the trick.


The Piston "Sounding stuck" could have been from Coolant in the Combustion Chamber. This will bend Connecting Rods in an instant. Internal Combustion Engines are for compressing Air/Fuel Mixture. Not Liquid. This could have further blown the Head Gasket out also. This is called Hydrolock.

 

[p_mori7]

Concur.

 

[Bolster]

What recommendations for the current situation...at sea, alone, constant swell (nothing holding still). Does he use it till it stops working? Use at low RPM? Try to patch the head gasket? (Don't know what repair adhesives he has on hand). Which scenarios cause more and less damage? I need to give options. Many thanks.

BTW, if you are interested in this guy's adventure (he is an excellent writer) check the blog here:

http://murreandthepacific.wordpress.com/

 

[bmwpower]

Stuck this for you, Bolster.

 

[Bolster]

Wow thank you BMWpower. As soon as I can get him some solutions I'll clear out. But thank you very much.

 

[DHS]

I have heard of using black pepper instead of Bar's leaks.

 

[Bolster]

Any merit to trying to determine the bad cylinder and working around it?

 

[rockchucker]

Black Pepper or Egg Whites usually will stop Radiator Leaks and Pinholes but Head Gaskets are a different ball park. Anything at this point is worth a try though and I bet he would have Black Pepper on hand.


Run it at moderate RPM and watch the Temperature like a Hawk. If it starts to leak from the Combustion Chamber into the Cooling System then you can build up too much pressure and blow Hoses. If he removes the Radiator Cap after letting the Engine cool then starts the Engine and watches for Air Bubbles in the Coolant it will tell him if he has a Blown Head Gasket but not really going to do him any good. To Help with the Cooling System if it is building too much pressure you can turn your Radiator Cap just to where it is locked but not twisted all of the way on. This way it will not build up as much pressure. Still just a band-Aid fix though.

The only advice I have is to run it very easy and if it starts to heat up then pour water over the radiator and then shut her down and let her cool then go for it again. Repeat process until the Engine is toast. ***** but that really is all I have for you. Make sure he does not use all of his juice. Maybe unhook one Battery from the System if he does not have an Isolator so when the Engine does go at least he has one full Battery for calling a rescue.

 

[Wrenches of Death]

I have heard of using black pepper instead of Bar's leaks.

Ground black pepper is an old fix. It'll work. Ground nutmeg will work too.

WoD

 

[rockchucker]

Since he has 2 Oil Changes on Hand then he will want to use them. Plot out how far he needs to make it to the nearest Port and change the Oil 1/3 and 2/3 of the way to Port. If his Oil is mixing badly then it needs to be changed or the Engine will not get lubrication in vital areas only leading to higher running temperatures and imminent failure. So if it gets bad fast then use the oil on hand to change it as soon as it needs it. You wont go anywhere on mixed Oil/Coolant as a lubricant.

 

[Bolster]

Thanks guys. I'm passing this info along.

 

[Bolster]

Reeves returns an email:


thank you sooo much for being on it.

have read first four emails. blown head gasket: uck.

coolant test inconclusive. boat in rolly sea: coolant bubbles when at neck of header tank, but is this vibration of engine? when not at neck, it looks usually still.

other comments:

-engine starts right up when warm; no sticking, etc.
-rust spots on oil cap were not rust spots but brown water. lots there when I checked the cap just before coolant test. does not taste of coolant.
-i have already run the engine for four hours post the incident and it has not overheated nor shown signs to (granted was running in neutral).

and guess what: we are in the doldrums! diminishing wind all day and now NONE.

what fancy luck I have.

torn between going at slow now and waiting. will pull down some weather files with this email send and use them to help assess.

 

[p_mori7]

The engine will run with a blown head gasket. stopping it allows water or coolant to leak onto the top of the piston(s), which then leaks past the rings and can mix with oil. If the engine has coolant in it, that can kill the main or connecting rod bearings pretty quick, but it will knock like a sonofabitch first.

Suggest remove thermostat. That way air bubbles will not build up behind the t/stat and prevent it from opening (air doesn't conduct heat as good as liquid). If worried about engine temps for proper combustion, drill a 1/8" hole in the flat part of t/stat and reinstall it. That will allow gases to pass, but not enough coolant to affect t/stat operation. Crack the radiator cap (if it has a radiator ?) to allow combustion gases in the coolant to escape.

Change oil & filter now. If he can pry the filter open, that will tell him something is coming apart in the engine (don't use a saw, it will create metal shavings inside the filter).

Oil cooler could still be the issue, have seen many on heavy trucks that the leak could only be found after heating it extensively then testing it.

Good Luck.

 

[Bolster]

Thanks Pmori7. To clarify: Starting and stopping repeatedly will allow more water/coolant to leak? So is starting/stopping frequently a bad idea, then? When you say "if the engine has coolant in it" I take it you mean, the cylinders. Roger the thermostat and oil change.

 

[Bolster]

Just got off the phone with a diesel mechanic friend of mine and wrote up what he told me. Read if you're interested. Copy paste from my email to Reeves:

Says he: Perkins is a sturdy engine. Sounds likely you are getting coolant in your oil as suspected, the clotted look. Could come in via a head gasket break, or a cracked head. The reason the engine is cranking hard: it's trying to compress liquid. Apparently you have a small enough leak that the engine can overcome it and get started. Once started it's minor enough that the vapor is blown out and doesn't stop it from running. If there were a large coolant leak it'd lock up and not turn over. You won't bend a rod or crack head starting it; the starter doesn't have that kind of power. It's possible you'd bust the head or bend a connecting rod if you get a big leak during running, but that may be a remote possibility if the leak remains small. So what to do? (1) Do the oil change and get fresh oil in. (2) Autopsy the old oil filter by prying apart looking for metal parts to see if you have a bigger problem. (3) Once you have the engine running, run it! No start-stop recommended. While running, it's apparently successfully blowing out the little bit of leakage. (4) Keep a weather eye on the coolant temp (on trouble will rise) or the oil pressure (trouble, will drop) and shut down if you see problems. Remember you can squeeze the coolant hoses to get a feel for pressure in them; get a baseline while engine's still cool or a little warm. (5) DANGEROUS recommendation: When you shut the engine down, immediately crack the radiator cap so you are not sending pressurized coolant back into the cylinders which now have no pressure. This is DANGEROUS, hot pressure in radiator, so wear your slicker, gloves, goggles, and be very aware you risk steam scalding to hands, face. Please verify you received the danger warning or I'll resend.

 

[Bolster]

Thought about this while I was supposed to be sleeping, check my logic please: If the diagnosis of water leaking into the cylinders is correct, and if you get the engine running and vaporize the liquid (and manage to do that without bending a rod, etc), and if you crack open the radiator upon shutdown to release coolant pressure, then the SUBSEQUENT startup should be easier. If it is, you have a confirmation of the diagnosis, correct?

Second question: If there's a little water sitting on top of the cylinders right now (engine not been running for a couple of days) is there any recommended way to get that little bit of liquid out, before attempting startup? Probably not, but just trying to explore every option.

 

[W-Cummins]

Thought about this while I was supposed to be sleeping, check my logic please: If the diagnosis of water leaking into the cylinders is correct, and if you get the engine running and vaporize the liquid (and manage to do that without bending a rod, etc), and if you crack open the radiator upon shutdown to release coolant pressure, then the SUBSEQUENT startup should be easier. If it is, you have a confirmation of the diagnosis, correct?

Second question: If there's a little water sitting on top of the cylinders right now (engine not been running for a couple of days) is there any recommended way to get that little bit of liquid out, before attempting startup? Probably not, but just trying to explore every option.

You could remove the accumulated water from the cylinder/s by removing the injector/s or if it has them the glow plug/s, and cranking it over. If you did that one time you may be able to see if all or just one cylinder is filling with water/coolant. If it's just one, then you could just drain that one before any subsequent restarts.


Another thought if you turn the motor over with a bar before you try to start it, and you find resistance to turning it ( possible hydro-locking) You may be able to remove it by turning it the other direction as the locking (if it's only on one cylinder this should work and maybe multi cylinders too depending on the #) can only happen if the valves are closed ( compression stroke).


William....

 

[Bolster]

That would be EXCELLENT. It would seem to greatly reduce the danger of bending a rod, blowing a larger hole in the gasket, etc. Thank you!

 

[ZRX61]

Also: Wondering if "stuck piston" is actually a intermittant fault with the starter?

 

[otis66]

What color is the smoke comming out of the exhaust. White, Grey, Black. Sweet smelling white smoke is a good indicator of coolant leak. Grey smoke that burns your eyes is fuel not burning completely. Also look for black wet tail pipe. soot. Also check fuel lines for leaks from tank to injector/pump. You may also have a fuel oil/water separator. Being on the ocean I would think that everything is hard to keep dry. You may want to bleed the fuel system to make sure there is no air in the system. To check to see if all of the cyl are firing loosen each feul line at going to each injector. If the cyl is firing you will hear a diif in the engine when you crack the fuel line. do this for each piston. You can also touch the exhaust manifold the cyl not firing or not to snuff will be cooler than the rest. Also check for a blockage in the fuel tank. If there is no screen in the tank somthing can settle at the bottom of the tank. Note I always find air leaks at the primer pump.

 

[otis66]

I haven't seen a Perkins diesel since I was in tech school. The only connecting rod I ever saw bent was from a Flexible Bus That somone loaded up with either. An 8V92 6 cyl.

 

[Bolster]

Yeah, obviously there is no "stuck piston," it is just some unusual noise. Don't know what it is exactly but I've no report yet of a starter fault. But will keep it in mind.

What I'm trying to sort out now, is whether removing an injector (or glow plug, don't know which is on that engine) in order to crank the engine and clear out any liquid that may be sitting in the cylinders, is riskier than doing nothing and just starting it, hoping for the best.

I understand that removing an injector may risk screwing up the injector, its copper washer seat, or a fuel line, in which case the problem is now much worse.

The mariner in question is not a trained mechanic so we must allow he does not have the advantage of finesse, particularly on a rolling sea.

 

[Bolster]

What color is the smoke comming out of the exhaust....

In his initial post, he says

-No unusual exhaust gas was noticed (not black, not white--clear exhaust).
-Water expulsion from exhaust system seemed normal.

Does that tell us anything?

 

[tatra]

another possible water leak could be the lube oil cooler...........course wouldn't explain the " hydro lok" scenario but as zrx61 mentioned the intermittent starter prob...........as for removal of the cap, do it when it is cold if the expansion tank is the highest point..........preesurized systems are used to increase the boiling point of the coolant..........just install to the first click and let the level find itself.............and monitor temp...........

 

[Steve from Socal]

I am wondering if the problem is that he is not running the engine at a high enough load to burn off condensation. On a sail boat where he is idling the motor to charge the batteries the engine will not build any heat. Starts and running at low power or idle and shutting the engine off in an hour or less is really a bad engine management strategy.

How much usable fuel does he have and where is his present position?

Steve

 

[tatra]

steve makes a very valid point about burning off condensation...........short trip city driving is considered severe service for a vehicle and does contribute to sludging from condensate not getting burnt off.................is he losing coolant?...........

 

[Lotek]

Bolster, you may want to post this on Sailing Anarchy, don't mind the greeting, lots of knowledgeable sailors there.

 

[MGMatt]

I would say take a step back from the worst case scenario of blown head gasket and go over all of the basics.

Battery and cables, are they clean and tight? Is their a good ground to the motor? Is the connection at the starter clean and tight?

Check the fuel system. Is their a water separator? Has it been drained? Cleaned? Is the fuel filter clogged? Can he pinch off the fuel return line to build a little extra fuel pressure? Is air leaking into the fuel system?

Does the engine have glow plugs? Is he using them? (I have seen many experienced truck drivers and equipment operators jump into a cold machine and just crank away.) Do they work?

Is the air filter clogged?

I would agree with Steve and Tatra that it is most likely condensation in the oil. I would suggest that when he runs it at idle to charge the batteries, put a piece of cardbord or cloth (or what ever he has) in front of the radiator. Keep an eye on the temp guage when it gets to operating temp unblock the radiator enough to maintain the operating temp.

Good Luck!

 

[Bolster]

I am wondering if the problem is that he is not running the engine at a high enough load to burn off condensation.How much usable fuel does he have and where is his present position?

Interesting theory. Plenty of fuel (he's used virtually none since filling in Cabo San Lucas, saving it for the Doldrums) and his present position is where stated in the original post.

Getting answers to all questions is difficult as the propagation is not so good now. All information comes from long wave single sideband packet radio. But I will do what I can. Thanks to all for your help on this. Much appreciated.

 

[ZRX61]

Pity my dad isn't here, he was a RN engine room tiffy before becoming a gunnery instructor.

 

[Bolster]

A bit more info coming in:

gentlemen, thank you so much for this.

a little background.

most marine engines are raw (sea) water cooled. That is, sea water cools the
coolant that cools the oil. A raw water pump (gear driven on my engine)
circulates sea water through a heat exchanger in which is also coolant; the
coolant is then circulated through the oil cooler and back to the header tank.

so it sounds like the raw water pump leaking is another possibility. slim I
think as I replaced the pump in Dec--but I could have done it incorrectly.

again, thanks much.

Propagation is better in the evening so I'll be able to share your theories and recommendations with him in several hours. Again, thanks, from both of us.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Wet stacking is common on diesel engines in low load situations. Many boats that operate at low engine speeds run the engines at high power settings every 4-6 hours. In your friends situation first he is not running the engine at enough power to build anything but localized heat and it is not running long enough to warm the oil above the boiling point of the moisture in the engine.

My suggestion would be to run the engine at normal load for at least two hours and repeat this several times. The engine has to be loaded to 60% or more to build enough heat, the oil cooler could be closed if possible until the oil pan is too hot to touch. Diesel engines do not like to run at low load and many boaters do just that to conserve fuel. Is he headed for the Marquesas's?

Steve

 

[KEH]

Just for possible info, none of the Perkins engines I've seen have glow plugs. Granted a marine engine may be different in that respect. He should know by now if it has glow plugs, they are on the side of the head and have wires running to them, plus the engine probably won't start without using them. Switches and indicator lights are normally part of the controls. I just started a Kubota tractor engine today that has glow plugs and inspite of the warm weather it would not start withour glow plugs being heated. So I don't think he has glow plugs. So if he wants to remove pressure on a cylinder he would have to loosen an injector. Before he does that he needs to know which cylinder is causing trouble and I don't know how to do that on a diesel. I did have the priviledge of doing that on a gas engine, just remove spark plug wires, AND that engine was putting out white smoke steadily. Based on that experience, it sounds like his leak is small.

KEH

 

[maxipouce]

I worked on a 4.107 recently , i'll just add this;
4.108= INDIRECT injection= it NEEDS preheating to start well.
two preheating systems;
1) thermostart
1 glow plug screwed in the intake manifold with a wire and a fuel line, after 40 seconds of heating (you can check the temperature with your fingers without removing it) its valve opens and some fuel get vaporized on the hot wire, then you crank and the engine starts.
It must receive fuel and it must receive current.

2) glow plugs
4 glow plugs under each injector, they just need current, if the relay or switch is shot he can connect them to the + of the battery during the usual preheating time (not more).
On old engines some glow plugs are connected in a serial way; if one is shot the 3 other ones won't work.In that case it becomes quite difficult to start.

On modern engines they are connected in a parrallel way; if one plug is shot the 3 other ones still work but it causes a knock on one cylinder during the time the engine heats up.

 

[Bolster]

OK so here's the plan. He's going to do a cold drain of the oil, which will allow a diagnosis. Does coolant come out first, then oil? Or is it all oil? Will autopsy the filter & look for metal. Refill with fresh oil and try to start. That's the dicey part, but we abandoned ideas of trying to throw any coolant out of the cyl's by injector disassy...too risky on a rolling sea, without spare parts, with no training. If starts & runs, will run for a couple hours under load, watching temp and pressure very closely. Might also try the manifold diagnosis to see if equally warming or is one cyl cooler. Upon shutdown will (carefully) crack the vent in the radiator cap, depressurizing the coolant system. When cool and/or unusued, will cap again to prevent moisture ingress. Will likely change oil 2x more before arrive Hiva, only 1 of those will get a filter change (out of filters).

This happens tomorrow. Fingers crossed. Will inform. Thanks tons for the input.

 

[johnsdeere850j]

what's this ol boy do for a living to be able to sail around all day on a boat to tahiti?

 

[tatra]

condensate/water/coolant will come out first, then oil............upo initial start, feeling ex. manifolds legs, intermittantly til too hot to touch will verify cylinder firing.........would run with out coolant cap fully closed to prevent pressurization of system and allow excess to overflow while watching the temp gauge........as mentioned, idling a diesel is murder on them, they like heat and a load to perform properly.........

 

[justanengineer]

I too suspect some simple condensation in the crankcase due to low loading, humidity, and being on the water. Maybe I missed it, but has he checked the coolant level thats going through the engine circuit? If the coolant level is remaining steady, his head gaskets are good and so is the cooling system = that isnt coolant in the oil. If its draining down, a head gasket is likely. If its at a steady level, but discolored, the heat exchanger may be leaking through.

IMHO older Perkins are one of the worst diesels ever made, especially the smaller engines. The manufacturing quality just was not there, and its little wonder the company couldnt last on their own.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Bolster,

One more thing,

Totally unrelated to the issue at hand, your buddy should have never left without a sat phone. When he make land fall I strongly suggest he get a sat phone, between these kinds of situations and or worse a medical issue he needs reliable communication.

Steve