Use Stranded to Connect Breaker?

[rawen2]

I want to move an existing 120V 30A breaker from near the bottom of my Square D Home panel to the top to allow it to be physically interlocked for use with a generator. This breaker goes to an RV outlet on the outside of my garage. I don't own an RV and don't expect to. The existing 10-2 with ground is too short. Checked Home Depot & Lowes trying to find 10ga solid wire by the foot with no luck. All they had was stranded. They didn't have 10-2 Romex by the foot either.

Does code allow me to extend the wire and attach to the breaker using 10ga stranded wire?

 

[rlitman]

This isn't a code (NEC) issue. It is a manufacturer's issue (UL). What do the instructions on YOUR breaker say? My guess is you'll be fine. If you really cared, you'd crimp on a bootlace ferrule to the wire, but once you go above 10AWG, pretty much all the insulated wires you'll encounter are stranded, and how do you think you land those on a breaker.

 

[Jim greengo]

Wire nut them together,you'll be fine.

 

[TurnipTruck]

You are only going to power half of your breaker box?

 

[rawen2]

You are only going to power half of your breaker box?

Good point. I guess I'll have to move another breaker so I can install a double pole breaker for the generator.
Thanks for the info guys.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I want to move an existing 120V 30A breaker from near the bottom of my Square D Home panel to the top to allow it to be physically interlocked for use with a generator. This breaker goes to an RV outlet on the outside of my garage. I don't own an RV and don't expect to. The existing 10-2 with ground is too short. Checked Home Depot & Lowes trying to find 10ga solid wire by the foot with no luck. All they had was stranded. They didn't have 10-2 Romex by the foot either.

Does code allow me to extend the wire and attach to the breaker using 10ga stranded wire?

yes you can use stranded wire on a breaker....

but you should change that TT-30 receptacle to an inlet so you dont have to use a suicide cord

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Good point. I guess I'll have to move another breaker so I can install a double pole breaker for the generator.

Thanks for the info guys.

a 120v/240v generator not gonna work with the existing 10/2 NM-b you have in the walls. you will need a new 4-wire feeder from the generator inlet to the panel....

I want to move an existing 120V 30A breaker from near the bottom of my Square D Home panel to the top to allow it to be physically interlocked for use with a generator. This breaker goes to an RV outlet on the outside of my garage. I don't own an RV and don't expect to. The existing 10-2 with ground is too short......

 

[nadogail]

I may be doomed to eternal prediction for this comment but; you can extend a solid conductor with a stranded conductor within an approved enclosure if you join them in an approved manner.

Wire nut a THHN stranded wire to your existing conductor.

 

[rawen2]

Just to clarify, my generator is a small portable 120V, 1600W continuous, 2000W surge. The only reason for a double pole breaker is to power both legs in the panel. Gen breaker will be physically interlocked with main breaker.

@wyliesdiesels, Yes, will change to inlet connector.

Thanks again to all for your help.

 

[Chance]

eternal prediction

eh?

 

[Jeff C]

120V + double pole breaker… don’t see this ending well.

 

[dogdog]

I just connect directly to the breakers. ... but they do sell these Ferrules for stranded wires. I believe it's electrical code for some countries.

https://www.grainger.com/product/39AX83?

 

[rlitman]

I just connect directly to the breakers. ... but they do sell these Ferrules for stranded wires. I believe it's electrical code for some countries.

https://www.grainger.com/product/39AX83?

The strands in THHN should be plenty thick to be used in breakers, but the finer stranded wires used predominantly in other countries (we do use stuff like MTW/TEW here, but not so much in building wiring) really do need ferrules. That being said, a ferrule wouldn't hurt, particularly when the wire is directly under a screw. If you've got breakers with a clamp (or a washer like the QO uses) that holds the wires without direct contact with the screw, then I really don't see the point of stranded THHN having a ferrule.

 

[BukitCase]

"eternal prediction"

I'm thinkin' a bit too much "spell checker" help - maybe eternal PERDITION?

 

[walta]

If you still want solid #10 my local Ace Hardware sells #10 Romex by the foot. I did not do the math but I think Ace’s cost per foot was less than the box stores price divided by the 25-foot length.

Note back feeding only one leg has risks in that if you happen to forget to trip the 240V breaker for a load like a water heater when the water cools its thermostat will close. Now the power from the generator will flow thru the water heater and power the other buss in the panel at a reduced voltage.

That reduced voltage could easily damage loads with 120 V motors on the second leg should they be switched on.

Seem to me the smart move is to use extension cords to power loads with the 120V generator or upgrade to a 240V gen set with an interlock and inlet plug.

Walta

 

[Steve.S]

"eternal prediction"

I'm thinkin' a bit too much "spell checker" help - maybe eternal PERDITION?

Give me "external damnation" over "eternal perdition" or "eternal prediction" any day...

 

[oldtractors]

Just to clarify, my generator is a small portable 120V, 1600W continuous, 2000W surge. The only reason for a double pole breaker is to power both legs in the panel. Gen breaker will be physically interlocked with main breaker.

@wyliesdiesels, Yes, will change to inlet connector.

Thanks again to all for your help.

I don't think that will end well.

 

[rawen2]

Seem to me the smart move is to use extension cords to power loads with the 120V generator or upgrade to a 240V gen set with an interlock and inlet plug.

Thanks Walta, I checked my local ACE and they didn't have #10 by the foot. Went to Home Depot and got 2' of Stranded THHN today.

I already have the interlock installed on the breaker panel and will install the inlet plug.

I don't agree that running a bunch of extension cords is smart for the things I want to run. Would need a lot of cords since appliances are all in different rooms. Furnace is hard wired so couldn't just plug it in to an extension cord. Would have to leave a door or window cracked open for the cords letting in the cold and possibly CO and vermin. Cords all over the place would be a trip hazard. Especially the one running down the basement stairs to the furnace - after going to the trouble of wiring in an inlet plug just for the furnace.

I'd be happy to get a 240 gen set if someone wanted to buy it for me and pay for and haul all the gasoline it will **** up. Those things are pretty thirsty! As well as the cost of buying heavy gauge extension cords. By the time I got 'em all strung out and hooked up the power outage would be over! LOL!

Have had my Honda 120V gen for over a decade and I don't need 240V. On light loads it will run 8 hours on a gallon of gas. Just want to be able to run the gas furnace, the refrigerator, TV, Wifi and a few LED lights during a power outage. Feeding both legs of the panel with one 120V generator will result in zero effective volts at the 240V appliances. If my stove and clothes dryer use any 120 they make it internally because I've tested them on the generator and the displays are dark.

I don't think that will end well.

Why? Not arguing, just wondering what you think would happen?

For all the naysayers - I used a similar setup at a previous house many times using the same generator. It worked well. I just want to hook it up per code this time.

I really do appreciate the constructive input. But I've learned that on this forum if you ask what time it is you'll get a whole bunch of guys telling you how to build a clock! And all of the clocks will be of different construction! And a couple will say "you need an atomic clock to be really accurate".

And to think all I wanted to know in this thread was whether or not I could use #10 stranded to extend a wire in my electrical panel. LOL!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks Walta, I checked my local ACE and they didn't have #10 by the foot. Went to Home Depot and got 2' of Stranded THHN today.

I already have the interlock installed on the breaker panel and will install the inlet plug.

I don't agree that running a bunch of extension cords is smart for the things I want to run. Would need a lot of cords since appliances are all in different rooms. Furnace is hard wired so couldn't just plug it in to an extension cord. Would have to leave a door or window cracked open for the cords letting in the cold and possibly CO and vermin. Cords all over the place would be a trip hazard. Especially the one running down the basement stairs to the furnace - after going to the trouble of wiring in an inlet plug just for the furnace.

I'd be happy to get a 240 gen set if someone wanted to buy it for me and pay for and haul all the gasoline it will **** up. Those things are pretty thirsty! As well as the cost of buying heavy gauge extension cords. By the time I got 'em all strung out and hooked up the power outage would be over! LOL!

Have had my Honda 120V gen for over a decade and I don't need 240V. On light loads it will run 8 hours on a gallon of gas. Just want to be able to run the gas furnace, the refrigerator, TV, Wifi and a few LED lights during a power outage. Feeding both legs of the panel with one 120V generator will result in zero effective volts at the 240V appliances. If my stove and clothes dryer use any 120 they make it internally because I've tested them on the generator and the displays are dark.

nope neither would. they use one leg of the circuit and neutral. never seen any stove or dryer with a transformer... that would be an added expense that serves no purpose....

when you tested them on the generator did you supply power to both hot legs on the receptacle? if not then thats why the clock and displays didnt work

 

[BukitCase]

At the risk of irritating you even more, just a couple of points -

1 - Your generator is 1600 watts; the higher number on every generator I've ever seen is just "pie in the sky" to make you're getting more than you are.

2 - I've included a rough chart of wattage for general household items, including furnace fan, refrigerator, etc - Try adding up the wattages and see if you run out of things you want BEFORE you go over 1600 - if so, it's (maybe) all good. Best of luck tho... Steve

 

[walta]

Feeding both legs of the panel with one 120V generator will result in zero effective volts at the 240V appliances.

I like this Idea not one I had considered.

Just be careful as what you are considering is putting a wire between the two hot legs If somehow that wire was connected grid power it would test your breaker ability to trip.

Did you say the breaker interlocking with the main is a 240V as you would need to feed both legs. You started this thread say you wanted to move a single 120V breaker.

Walta

 

[rawen2]

Too Long Didn't Read (TLDR) : Hooked up and tested my gen today. Worked great.

Did you say the breaker interlocking with the main is a 240V as you would need to feed both legs. You started this thread say you wanted to move a single 120V breaker.

Originally I had planned to use a single pole breaker which would have only powered half of the panel. But after testing, not enough of my "necessary" lights and appliances were on that leg. I needed power on the other leg. I know I could rearrange the breakers to all be on the same leg but I didn't want to mess with that. I already had a double pole 30A breaker. Installed it (with a jumper between legs) and mounted it at the top of my electrical panel. Also connected to it is the extended #10 wire that comes from the RV outlet on the outside of the garage. The 30A breaker then back feeds 120V to both legs. It is interlocked with a metal plate so that the main breaker has to be turned off before the new 30A breaker can be turned on.

Just be careful as what you are considering is putting a wire between the two hot legs If somehow that wire was connected grid power it would test your breaker ability to trip.

Yes, I completely understand. WITHOUT the interlock the 30A breaker could be turned on while connected to utility power. It would immediately trip (I would hope!) due to a dead short. But it IS interlocked.

Went out and bought a Kill-a-Watt power meter and tested some loads. I rounded up the wattage readings slightly since I don't 100% trust this cheap meter. But it gets me a ball-park estimate of power consumption.
TV - 70W
Lamp in Living Room - 19W
Modem and WIFI router - 13W combined
Refrigerator running (Cooling) - 160W That surprised me since the compressor is rated 4.3A and approx double that for locked rotor current. But I realize that it will consume approx locked rotor current on startup for a short time. That's what the surge wattage rating on the gen "should" help with. So for calculation purposes I'll use 500W
Refrigerator in defrost mode - Need to check again but I think it was 400W
Gas furnace - 400W on low fire (lower blower speed)
Gas furnace - 645W on high fire (higher blower speed) It only goes to this setting if set point is not reached within about 10 minutes but I'll use the higher number for calculating power needs.

That puts me around 1250W + a couple more LED lights and phantom loads - let's call it 50W. That makes it 1300W if everything is running at the same time. My 1600W gen should handle it. It did at the last house I had.

We rarely get power outages here. I just want to be prepared.

when you tested them on the generator did you supply power to both hot legs on the receptacle? if not then thats why the clock and displays didnt work

Yes, you're correct. I tested again today with both legs energized (same phase) and the controls lit up.

Your generator is 1600 watts; the higher number on every generator I've ever seen is just "pie in the sky" to make you're getting more than you are.

I agree. Just like 5HP shop vacs that plug into a 120V outlet, LOL! But I trust the 1600W continuous rating coming from Honda. If I understand correctly the 2000W is only for a very short time (few seconds?) to accommodate start-up surges.

 

[LSUmAniac]

If it was me I wouldn't go through all that trouble for such a small generator, there is other option you can use to power up the lights and maybe your fridge but unless you plan to get alot bigger unit it's not worth the trouble imo.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So youre using a suicide cord?

 

[rawen2]

No. Twist lock inlet. Can't remember the model number.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Refrigerator running (Cooling) - 160W That surprised me since the compressor is rated 4.3A and approx double that for locked rotor current. But I realize that it will consume approx locked rotor current on startup for a short time. That's what the surge wattage rating on the gen "should" help with. So for calculation purposes I'll use 500W
Refrigerator in defrost mode - Need to check again but I think it was 400W
Gas furnace - 400W on low fire (lower blower speed)
Gas furnace - 645W on high fire (higher blower speed) It only goes to this setting if set point is not reached within about 10 minutes but I'll use the higher number for calculating power needs.

I just threw a power-monitoring smart plug on my gas furnace. It shows 60W on the lowest speed (just recirc), 240W on low and 415W on high. Our fridge is rated at 3.5A and it lists 140W for fridge defrost and 180W for freezer defrost, butI haven't put the meter on it yet. Your numbers seem pretty reasonable.

IMO there's no need to plan on the worst case combinations. If you're manually switching over to generator, you can unplug the fridge until the furnace has the house up to temp but you probably don't even need to do that. Sounds like you have a very nice minimalist setup.

 

[pbon]

With the little 120V 1600w generator, why not just power one leg of the panel and move the few circuits you plan to use to that side?

 

[mike93lx]

An interlock and a 120v generator powering both legs is nothing new. I'm at a loss as to what all the concern is about? Turn off the 240v breakers and everything else will work, within the limitations of the generator's output.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Just to clarify, my generator is a small portable 120V, 1600W continuous, 2000W surge. The only reason for a double pole breaker is to power both legs in the panel. Gen breaker will be physically interlocked with main breaker.

This is likely NOT NEC compliant, but it does work ! Of course no 240V appliances will work.

 

[ipgenie]

Thousands of RVs run both legs of a 50A 240V input on these little Hondas every year or from an adapter to 15 or 30A outlet. House is really no different once the transfer switch or interlock is thrown.

Keep the loads under the max supply current and all will be well.

I've done the same thing at my house several times. I even ran the house off the battery, inverter and solar from my 5th wheel for a day while I replaced the meter base which is located on the shop and feeds the house. My wife didn't even know the power was disconnected at the pole.

 

[Metal-Marc]

But I've learned that on this forum if you ask what time it is you'll get a whole bunch of guys telling you how to build a clock! And all of the clocks will be of different construction! And a couple will say "you need an atomic clock to be really accurate".

I do have an atomic clock in the living room. Pretty cool and accurate.

edit: there's one in the garage too.

 

[Chance]

I do have an atomic clock in the living room. Pretty cool and accurate.

Cesium, rubidium, or hydrogen?

 

[Metal-Marc]

Cesium, rubidium, or hydrogen?

AA batteries.


La Crosse Technology Atomic Analog Wall Clock

 

[Chance]

AA batteries.


La Crosse Technology Atomic Analog Wall Clock

"atomic time" != atomic clock (I was looking forward to see some cool box of electronics and an interesting story, bummer)

 

[Metal-Marc]

"atomic time" != atomic clock (I was looking forward to see some cool box of electronics and an interesting story, bummer)

Next time, click the link and read instead of complaining.

"Clock resets regularly by radio-control to match the US Atomic Clock in Colorado and adjusts automatically for daylight savings time."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIST-F1

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cesium, rubidium, or hydrogen?

cesium and rubidium wouldnt be good for that. shouldve said plutonium 238 RTG

 

[Chance]

Next time, click the link and read instead of complaining.

You're right. For some reason I didn't realize that was a clickable link. Sorry for the distraction.

 

[Spacecoastz]

I too am using a 120v generator (3,500 running watts) for emergency back-up. But I use a 20" adapter cord that plugs into the generator TT-30 outlet and converts it to a 4-pin twist-lock receptacle. Then I can use my normal 120/240v cord and plug into the house inlet box. Everything that I would want to power during an outage using 120v is under 2,500 watts.

So once you get passed the adapter cord everything is set for being able to use 240v.... if my generator had the capability. But using only 120v single phase to both legs only means that I need to monitor total consumption....whereas if I was using 240v power I would have to monitor each leg of power. I don't have any requirements for powering 240v devices during an outage.

I don't like the idea of a jumper on the 30A breaker. Instead just do what I'm doing by having your inlet wired for 120/240, but use an adapter cord at the generator. Since you already have the double-pole 30A breaker, this is the best way to go.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0915SLRVY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[rawen2]

In operation there is no electrical difference between your connection and mine. Your jumper is in the adapter cable. It bonds the X and Y terminals on the female end. Having the jumper hidden inside of a cord doesn't make it any safer. Both methods need to be interlocked so they can't be used while utility power is present.

 

[Spacecoastz]

I disagree. Yes, there is no different during "operation"...and you are correct that my adapter cord is bonding the X and Y legs. But the reality is that you have a jumper on the double-pole breaker inside your panel. What happens if the panel cover is removed...and the breaker is accidentally pushed on? What happens if someone other than you works in that panel and doesn't understand that it's jumped? The bottom line is all you need is a few parts to make the system correct, rather than rigged..and the cost is minimal. And since you are able to move wires and breakers, then you are able to do the correct job yourself. Hope that helps.