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Using 2 separate mini splits vs 1 multi?

bikesandcars

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I'm costing out running a mini-split system for my 64x40 detached garage. It's well insulated, Last winter I keep it heated to 60 in winter with a 5500 watts of electric heaters and last summer kept it cool with a 20KBTU window unit.

I noticed while costing things out I can buy 2 x Mr Cool (DIY) systems (23K btu each) for $1,699 each so to over-kill the garage with heat / cooling would run me around $3400.

When comparing to multi-unit systems, the cost for those is between $4500 and $5500 for an outdoor unit and 2 or 3 indoor units for 36K btu not counting ancillaries

That got me wondering... why are 2 separate units cheaper? And ... What's the down side (if any) with going with 2 separate units?

Why on earth wouldn't I just buy 2 x Mr Cool DIY systems with 20 SEER and 10HSPF as opposed to a Fujitsu component system for 2K more?
 
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antinym

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Don't forget you'll incur twice the installation costs. That may be $100-200 for pipes, wire, hoses, breakers, mounting pads, sealant, etc...

I did multiple units because it was still cheaper.
 

Diesel Dan

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The living space of our shop/house has two sperate mini-splits.
Reasons were:
1) redundancy/backup if one fails there is still 50% capacity available
2) low output control

A large single condensing unit can only throttle down so much and smaller interior heads may not be able to run as a single. That finite amount of control for a shop probably isn't nec however with a large shop I'd consider multiple units on opposite ends for backup. IIRC, single condenser and single head units are also the most efficient too.
 

yeldogt

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It's packaging and performance ... One compressor cooling an entire structure. Properly sized they work very well and are efficient ...

Nothing wrong with multi compressor systems ... especially when a zone will rarely be used.

You don't want a bunch of oversized singles running 24/7 ..... the efficiency rating are not = across the full range of operation. There is this idea that oversizing is not a problem because the units can modify output ... they can .. but, the efficiency is not the same.

Most people don't want a bunch of units outside w/ lines running all over the house.
 
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Diesel Dan

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It's packaging and performance ... One compressor cooling an entire structure. Properly sized they work very well and are efficient ...

Nothing wrong with multi compressor systems ... especially when a zone will rarely be used.

You don't want a bunch of oversized singles running 24/7 ..... the efficiency rating are not = across the full range of operation. There is this idea that oversizing is not a problem because the units can modify output ... they can .. but, the efficiency is not the same.

Most people don't want a bunch of units outside w/ lines running all over the house.
What he said.

Oversized is not a good thing. Something I was told a long time ago, one the coldest day you want the furnace running constantly just keeping up and same for a/c on hottest day. All the other times it's too large.

Years ago I removed a 125K BTU fuel oil furnace for a 75K LP unit and the house was more comfortable and the furnace didn't cycle as often. Had longer run time but wasn't constantly cycling.

My line sets are in the walls. That was a lot more work.:lol_hitti
 

Jackfre

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Depending upon where you want the condensing units singles may be the way to go. Yes, you have two disconnects, another base or rack for them, but redundancy is worth a lot. As well the efficiency is generally better although not as much of a difference in the higher btu. Do you have the panel space would be a consideration.
 
OP
B

bikesandcars

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Thanks Everyone.

I have freedom to do what I want, plenty of panel space and circuits available.

I like the idea of redundancy, and what about the fact that using 2 outdoor / indoor units that most of the year only 1 needs to run, actually have half the wear / tear and 2x the life for each one right?

I'm doing my own install, so for example: Running a "Mr. Cool" system myself saves quite a bit. Also could run a high quality Fujitsu system for similar costs but need to source the lines / etc and get it charged.

Either way, 2x independent 18K BTU systems are cheaper or on par to 1x 36K system with 2 heads.
 

Innovate1

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What he said.

Oversized is not a good thing. Something I was told a long time ago, one the coldest day you want the furnace running constantly just keeping up and same for a/c on hottest day. All the other times it's too large.

Years ago I removed a 125K BTU fuel oil furnace for a 75K LP unit and the house was more comfortable and the furnace didn't cycle as often. Had longer run time but wasn't constantly cycling.

My line sets are in the walls. That was a lot more work.:lol_hitti

Not disagreeing with anything you said but just wanted to point out the furnaces are rated on BTU INPUT not output. So an 80% 100kBTU unit puts out 80k BTU while a 95% 80k BTU unit outputs 76 k BTU so the difference in downsizing a newer, more efficient furnace is not as much difference as it first appears.

Lots of times they are oversized to start with. Just got a quote for a 100k BTU furnace for a 1200 sq ft garage. It's very well insulated so that is overkill. I figured a 60k was still large.
 

theoldwizard1

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The bonus of 2 air complete systems is that their SEER rating will be much better than 1 with 2 air handlers

Like any HVAC system, distributing the heat/cold is an issue. I'm sure there were cold areas in the winter and hot areas in the summer. If you want good temperature distribution for a room that size, I would recommend 4 air handlers.

Also make sure what the heat output is at 0F !
 

Innovate1

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Interesting idea. I had wondered about doing this myself. Two single minisplits would be a DIY project where a multihead unit probably wouldn't, at least for me. The price showed $1849 though. Even so, 2 would be a LOT less than the 10k I was quoted from a couple places for a full install. Could even throw in a pretty nice, high efficiency furnace for the really cold weather and still be $5k ahead. Maybe a bit less with various parts for the installs.
 

Diesel Dan

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Not disagreeing with anything you said but just wanted to point out the furnaces are rated on BTU INPUT not output. So an 80% 100kBTU unit puts out 80k BTU while a 95% 80k BTU unit outputs 76 k BTU so the difference in downsizing a newer, more efficient furnace is not as much difference as it first appears.

Yes, in fact thinking back that oil burner might have been a 80% 150 btu which would have given me the 120-125 out range. That oil furnace was just too big for that house.
Short cycle times, high plenum temps, carpet nearest to furnace was baked.

Replaced with a 96-98% 75K LP and much longer cycle times, more appropriate plenum temps etc. No duct work changes. Saved LOTS of money in fuel that first year.
 

Diesel Dan

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Interesting idea. I had wondered about doing this myself. Two single minisplits would be a DIY project where a multihead unit probably wouldn't, at least for me. The price showed $1849 though. Even so, 2 would be a LOT less than the 10k I was quoted from a couple places for a full install. Could even throw in a pretty nice, high efficiency furnace for the really cold weather and still be $5k ahead. Maybe a bit less with various parts for the installs.

I went the route of owner install as well. However I went the extra mile and received my EPA 608 license, already had the 609. Bought the gauges and nitrogen regulator so I could triple purge the system. Bought Fujitsu systems through a local supply house and the prices were better than the online stores. It has been stated before when buying line sets do not use the factory flares and that was my experience as well.

We are on the 3rd cooling season with ours and still working good.
 

shade

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I also went the route of having 2 units. So glad I did
Like $3500 for the units
few bucks for the electrical whips
$150 on the the lineset covers
$50 on pads...
Running both in the Arizona heat cost me about an extra $15 a month. 24/7 cooling

AC1.jpg
 

jjrbus

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To do a multiple head, one of my linsets would have been very long, at the limits of allowed length and quite difficult to run.

Plus I like redundancy so have 3 separate units.
 
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eliteangler

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Jones, OK
I also went the route of having 2 units. So glad I did
Like $3500 for the units
few bucks for the electrical whips
$150 on the the lineset covers
$50 on pads...
Running both in the Arizona heat cost me about an extra $15 a month. 24/7 cooling

AC1.jpg

What size garage and what size units did you purchase?
 

dcg9381

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I noticed while costing things out I can buy 2 x Mr Cool (DIY) systems (23K btu each) for $1,699 each so to over-kill the garage with heat / cooling would run me around $3400.

I have a 60x40 in Texas. Ran into exactly the same thing. I could buy 2 x 24k units for less than a 48k multi-head system... And for slightly less than a single 36k unit. No idea why.

The two systems work great (even installed near each other) - in moderate temps, I just run one.

I bought Daikin - no issues with any other brands.
 

OldSoldier

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I bought a multi-head Daikin and I wish I had bought two separate systems. That thing has been mountains of trouble since the day it was installed 19 months ago. I hate it.
 

yeldogt

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There is no simple answer .. for most people doing DIY -- the singles are smarter because if anything goes wrong they have less complex figuring out to do.

I really don't get the idea that singles have some sort of redundant advantage -- You have also doubled or tripled the complexity.

Many people still oversize -- just because they modulate is not a reason to oversize unless there is some reason for the added capacity. A property sized multi-head can outperform singles if one os property done and the others not.

In retrofit situations -- the Mr. Cool DIY make a compelling case for themselves if the lack of full cold performance fits the application. In many retrofit applications it's all surface mount anyway -- so, getting a pro to install is only time.

Do to the layout and complexities of my current build -- have been forced to use three single units. Had I been able to get a multi to work it would have been preferred -- cost was about the same.

You can get a 9/12k Mitsubishi installed (simple) around me in the low 4k's. A Mr. Cool would be less than 1/2 the cost .. but, also about 1/2 the warranty.

I'm thinking of trying a mr cool in one of my studio buildings .... I have another heat source .. so the low temp is not a problem
 

OldSoldier

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I had purchased a Friedrich Breeze DIY a couple of years earlier and it did not last all that long so I figured that I would get a name brand professionally installed unit that would conceivably last the rest of the time I planned to own the house (~10 year time frame) so that I would be able to pay a single large amount and be done with it, i.e. worrying about my shop temperature at any time of the year. I got three quotes, one for a Samsung, one for a Trane/Mitsu and one for a Daikin. I chose the Daikin because it was about $1500 less than the others and figured it was a good, name brand.

I ended up buying the 4 ton outdoor unit (I don't remember the nomenclature on the original one any longer, but it could handle up to 8 indoor units with enough branch boxes) and two 2 ton indoor units, the FTXS series.

The installer took several days to put it in and set it up, and it worked right out of the box for less than two weeks. It started throwing codes left and right. The installer didn't understand what was wrong with it, and so over the course of the next 4 months where my brand new two-zone MS was completely broken, I ended up pursuing BBB action and got an attorney involved with the installer, made contact with the manufacturer, and eventually the manufacturer's rep (they brought out several people, a salesman, a couple of regional customer service tech types, etc but not one of them knew anything more about their system other than to ask the installer to take a few readings on their gauges). My thought going into that meeting was that some grizzled old HVAC tech that worked directly for Daikin NA would take one look at it, say to the installer, "here's where you should have been looking, do this and that and it'll be fine" but no one did anything like that. After another month or so, the factory salesman agreed to replace the outdoor unit that needed the branch box with their brand new 5MXS48TVJU unit. It doesn't need a branch box and can handle 5 indoor units. They kept the indoor units unchanged.

After they installed the new unit, which I think they agreed to in order to make me go away rather than troubleshoot their own product, it worked for a while (maybe the rest of the summer, I stopped recording faults when the new unit was installed). It started failing on me again in the winter, less than a year after original installation, giving me similar codes to what it had been doing the first time (the codes are A5 and UH; they are burned into my memory from seeing them so much - A5 is a high temperature reading and UH is a "system error" with no other description). Sometimes I'll get the A5 upstairs and the UH downstairs and other times it is reversed. Sometimes, even now, the upstairs unit will blow cold (and I mean COLD - I currently have it set for 74 degrees on that zone and I would be shocked if it is above 65 degrees - and it is almost 100 degrees in TX right now) and I cannot get cooling out of the downstairs unit, except at certain times of the day. Four weeks ago, it was exactly the opposite (too much cold downstairs, nothing upstairs) for about a week. I didn't change a darn thing. Every time I walk out to the shop and open the door I wonder what I am about to get- ice cold or super warm with a blinking error light on the unit.

I called the installer last week to get them to come and look at it again because it had thrown codes 4 times in a 24 hour period without any cooling on either head, and wouldn't you know it the thing started blowing cold, at least upstairs, and hasn't quit yet (though it is MUCH too cold for what I've set it to). So I called off the warranty request until it dies again. It is just very temperamental, the installer and factory reps don't seem to care about it or me, and I wanted something I could "set and forget" and it has been my highest time **** item on my property, save perhaps the pool, since I bought it.
 
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dcg9381

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Many people still oversize -- just because they modulate is not a reason to oversize unless there is some reason for the added capacity. A property sized multi-head can outperform singles if one os property done and the others not.

Counter points:

The multi-heads are less efficient, no?

We have two units. In moderate climate times (read: moderate temperatures) we can run the entire shop on a single unit.

Another reasons for having a bit too much capacity is that I'm not normally in the shop all the time. I don't want to heat and cool it 24/7/365. So when I do show up, I want to be able to knock the heat down relatively quickly via using 2 units..
 

yeldogt

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Counter points:

The multi-heads are less efficient, no?

We have two units. In moderate climate times (read: moderate temperatures) we can run the entire shop on a single unit.

Another reasons for having a bit too much capacity is that I'm not normally in the shop all the time. I don't want to heat and cool it 24/7/365. So when I do show up, I want to be able to knock the heat down relatively quickly via using 2 units..


The units are rated at particular spot on the curve -- try finding out where that is or under what conditions. You can't. People here list running cost .. it only costs me X to run mine. That's meaningless.

When you size a mini -- it has to do what you want it to do. That includes pulling down the temp to where you need it to be ... the key is not to oversize to a point where it is not able to run efficiently once it's controlled the temp and humidity.

All the units are different -- you have to look at the ratings and how much they can produce at a given temp ...

Only you can do the math and figure out if the cost of two units works out best as for as upfront cost and running cost.
 
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yeldogt

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I had purchased a Friedrich Breeze DIY a couple of years earlier and it did not last all that long so I figured that I would get a name brand professionally installed unit that would conceivably last the rest of the time I planned to own the house (~10 year time frame) so that I would be able to pay a single large amount and be done with it, i.e. worrying about my shop temperature at any time of the year. I got three quotes, one for a Samsung, one for a Trane/Mitsu and one for a Daikin. I chose the Daikin because it was about $1500 less than the others and figured it was a good, name brand.

I ended up buying the 4 ton outdoor unit (I don't remember the nomenclature on the original one any longer, but it could handle up to 8 indoor units with enough branch boxes) and two 2 ton indoor units, the FTXS series.

The installer took several days to put it in and set it up, and it worked right out of the box for less than two weeks. It started throwing codes left and right. The installer didn't understand what was wrong with it, and so over the course of the next 4 months where my brand new two-zone MS was completely broken, I ended up pursuing BBB action and got an attorney involved with the installer, made contact with the manufacturer, and eventually the manufacturer's rep (they brought out several people, a salesman, a couple of regional customer service tech types, etc but not one of them knew anything more about their system other than to ask the installer to take a few readings on their gauges). My thought going into that meeting was that some grizzled old HVAC tech that worked directly for Daikin NA would take one look at it, say to the installer, "here's where you should have been looking, do this and that and it'll be fine" but no one did anything like that. After another month or so, the factory salesman agreed to replace the outdoor unit that needed the branch box with their brand new 5MXS48TVJU unit. It doesn't need a branch box and can handle 5 indoor units. They kept the indoor units unchanged.

After they installed the new unit, which I think they agreed to in order to make me go away rather than troubleshoot their own product, it worked for a while (maybe the rest of the summer, I stopped recording faults when the new unit was installed). It started failing on me again in the winter, less than a year after original installation, giving me similar codes to what it had been doing the first time (the codes are A5 and UH; they are burned into my memory from seeing them so much - A5 is a high temperature reading and UH is a "system error" with no other description). Sometimes I'll get the A5 upstairs and the UH downstairs and other times it is reversed. Sometimes, even now, the upstairs unit will blow cold (and I mean COLD - I currently have it set for 74 degrees on that zone and I would be shocked if it is above 65 degrees - and it is almost 100 degrees in TX right now) and I cannot get cooling out of the downstairs unit, except at certain times of the day. Four weeks ago, it was exactly the opposite (too much cold downstairs, nothing upstairs) for about a week. I didn't change a darn thing. Every time I walk out to the shop and open the door I wonder what I am about to get- ice cold or super warm with a blinking error light on the unit.

I called the installer last week to get them to come and look at it again because it had thrown codes 4 times in a 24 hour period without any cooling on either head, and wouldn't you know it the thing started blowing cold, at least upstairs, and hasn't quit yet (though it is MUCH too cold for what I've set it to). So I called off the warranty request until it dies again. It is just very temperamental, the installer and factory reps don't seem to care about it or me, and I wanted something I could "set and forget" and it has been my highest time **** item on my property, save perhaps the pool, since I bought it.

Finding decent people can be a trial -- feel your pain. It's amazing that they would switch out the original system if it was proper and compatible when installed .... the branch box provides full output.

I'm assuming all the connections were checked and correct .... all too often the problem is poor installs that leak .. the equipment talking to each other shoudl be easy to figure out.

Unfortunately -- there is a learning curve and it seems that people either do them all the time or they don't want to touch them.
 

dcg9381

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When you size a mini -- it has to do what you want it to do. That includes pulling down the temp to where you need it to be ... the key is not to oversize to a point where it is not able to run efficiently once it's controlled the temp and humidity.

All the units are different -- you have to look at the ratings and how much they can produce at a given temp ... .

I think part of the issue is that most calculations (manual J) assume residential use and as far as I know, it's not easy to calculate how fast you can pull down temperature for a given unit... For for shops that are "partial use" and may have frequent runs from ambient temperature to desired temperature - more may be better, certainly at the cost (as you mention) of not being as efficient at holding the building at that temperature...
 

yeldogt

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I think part of the issue is that most calculations (manual J) assume residential use and as far as I know, it's not easy to calculate how fast you can pull down temperature for a given unit... For for shops that are "partial use" and may have frequent runs from ambient temperature to desired temperature - more may be better, certainly at the cost (as you mention) of not being as efficient at holding the building at that temperature...

What's nice about modulating equipment -- they can really dehumidify. The modern VS split systems and most of the mini's have a way of managing humidity.

You can keep a space much warmer and be comfortable if you get the humidity out.
 

dsimatt

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I think part of the issue is that most calculations (manual J) assume residential use and as far as I know, it's not easy to calculate how fast you can pull down temperature for a given unit... For for shops that are "partial use" and may have frequent runs from ambient temperature to desired temperature - more may be better, certainly at the cost (as you mention) of not being as efficient at holding the building at that temperature...
To me if you can afford it why not oversize with 2 units, if you're just a occasional shop user and dont run the AC all the time then you'll want the fast recovery time. The redundancy is nice with 2 units and once you get close to your preferred temp you can turn off one unit or set it to dehumidify to control the moisture. We cool our house with just 1 mini split and while it does the job well the big compromise is you need to freeze out the area near it to really cool the areas farther away.
 

yeldogt

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To me if you can afford it why not oversize with 2 units, if you're just a occasional shop user and dont run the AC all the time then you'll want the fast recovery time. The redundancy is nice with 2 units and once you get close to your preferred temp you can turn off one unit or set it to dehumidify to control the moisture. We cool our house with just 1 mini split and while it does the job well the big compromise is you need to freeze out the area near it to really cool the areas farther away.


What's the cost to buy two units when one will do the job?

Run one unit all the time to maintain humidity and drop it down when needed -- space is always within comfort. How much will this cost ... vs the cost of having the second mini over 10 years?

In a large open space with proper insulation a single point heat or cool works fine .. I have done in many times.

My current house needs 4 compressors ... Crazy -- but, there is no way to make it work with fewer. If I could have done it with one I would have.
 

dsimatt

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What's the cost to buy two units when one will do the job?

Run one unit all the time to maintain humidity and drop it down when needed -- space is always within comfort. How much will this cost ... vs the cost of having the second mini over 10 years?

In a large open space with proper insulation a single point heat or cool works fine .. I have done in many times.

My current house needs 4 compressors ... Crazy -- but, there is no way to make it work with fewer. If I could have done it with one I would have.

I'm not sure the cost, it's been done on here before and really comes down to the person doing it.

One unit certainly is capable of cooling a space and will do better when it's a wide open space but what is the OP really wanting it to do? A space under constant cooling sealed up will work great, now you start opening garage doors or bring in hot vehicles and it loses ground fast.
 
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