Using an existing slab

[mwv247]

Gents,
I have a pole barn on my property that has a concrete floor. Its size is 25.5x31. Unfortunately at some point in its life it caught fire and a roof leak has caused damage to some of the headers. Id really like to tear it down and start over but wondering what I could do if I went that route. Could I build new walls with cinder blocks or should I stick with some sort of stick construction? Id love to have a cinder block garage, maybe this isn't the right project for that....

These arent the best photos but its all I have at the moment. It has metal siding and the outer posts are telephone poles. All the stains on the floor (hard to see) are from the leaking roof.

 

[astroracer]

If it's structurally sound (other then the fire damage) I would repair it. Sure would be cheaper then building a new one.
Going block is not an option as the slap is probably just poured in place with no footer. Well, it could be an option if you wanted to dig a footer around the perimeter of the slab. A lot of extra cost for no real gain. Clean up and fix what is there and enjoy the savings. OR make it bigger with that money
Mark

 

[mwv247]

If it's structurally sound (other then the fire damage) I would repair it. Sure would be cheaper then building a new one.
Going block is not an option as the slap is probably just poured in place with no footer. Well, it could be an option if you wanted to dig a footer around the perimeter of the slab. A lot of extra cost for no real gain. Clean up and fix what is there and enjoy the savings. OR make it bigger with that money
Mark

Thanks Astroracer, I kind of knew that the cinder block wasnt going to work. Im gonna tear it down no matter what, there is just too many issues with whats there.

 

[Richard Cranium]

With out a footer, don't put up an block wall

 

[DougWil]

Looking at the pics, your slab is basically at exterior grade.
Do you get water inside?
Does the rain/roof water have somewhere to go besides under your slab?
As in sloped away from the building?

Well I would excavate and pour a concrete footing then come up 1 or 2 courses of CMU block above the existing slab, then wood frame.
That keeps your wood high and dry and away from termites, rot etc..
More involved but you could also extend the concrete footing up 8 or more inches above the slab.
If you plan on insulating, wiring and interior sheeting pole barns don't save any money and create a lot of extra work.

Excavation would also allow you to but in a drainage system outside and below the footing to get the water away from your building.
You might need a pump if there is no place to direct the water, or dry well etc.

Most people don't put their building high enough above surrounding grade and don't consider the problems of run off.
Do it right and do it once.

 

[mwv247]

The water on the floor is only from the holes in the roof, I dont have grade issues, the photo is deceiving. I bought this property a year ago and the garage was already on it. I hate looking at it, it makes no sense to me and its ugly as heck. Why would someone build a garage without a side door? Thanks for the all advice gents.

 

[Cyberbear]

Perhaps consider, if you have the space, building another structure next to the existing slab and use that for outside parking or whatever. I too often see GJ posters asking how to fix problems with pole barn construction. The pole barns in my area is not where I'd want to put my expensive wood and metal working machinery, JMHO.

 

[Deej-79]

Tear down the old and stick build on the slab. If there arent anchors you can use redheads to anchor the new bottom pressure treated base plate to the slab. Note I said pressure treated base plate.

 

[astroracer]

I too often see GJ posters asking how to fix problems with pole barn construction. The pole barns in my area is not where I'd want to put my expensive wood and metal working machinery, JMHO.

Not to go off topic but I am curious as to why not? My pole barn is loaded with expensive metal and woodworking tools and I seem to have no issues with them... Of course mine is fully insulated and heated. If the "pole barn" is finished correctly there is actually no difference on the inside from a stick built structure...
Mark

 

[DougWil]

Not to go off topic but I am curious as to why not? My pole barn is loaded with expensive metal and woodworking tools and I seem to have no issues with them... Of course mine is fully insulated and heated. If the "pole barn" is finished correctly there is actually no difference on the inside from a stick built structure...
Mark

In my opinion pole barns are not a good long term value in most locations.

Placing wood especially the low grade 3rd or 4th growth timber available now, even treated below grade, in contact with dirt, gravel, water and insects isn't a good idea.

The weakest link, the rotting pole is hard to near impossible to replace.

2nd because there is no framing between poles, if you are going to insulate, wire and sheetrock it, you have to add it all.
So why not just go with stick frame to begin with?

3rd lots of air leaks in pole barn construction vs exterior sheeted and wrapped stick frame, which means a much lower energy efficient building.

Pole barns were OK for what they were originally for. Low cost structure to keep Betsy and the hay reasonably dry. When they started rotting and listing, you propped them up from the outside.
Eventually they fall over and you build another.

 

[DougWil]

Tear down the old and stick build on the slab. If there arent anchors you can use redheads to anchor the new bottom pressure treated base plate to the slab. Note I said pressure treated base plate.

On a pole barn, the poles are designed to carry the roof loads.
That slab probably doesn't have a thickened perimeter footing or the required reinforcement to carry loads.

 

[G McKay]

I 2nd the suggestion of redoing the garage if you can. I'd pull the roof off where the roof leaks and replace the headers and the hole in the roof. Roofing is pretty cheap at Menards. That's the way I would go.

 

[matt_i]

As above, if it suits your purposes then I would rebuild it as already suggested. If you need more of an insulated heated and cooled space then I would do as suggested and start over.

Pole barn in southern states is probably not a good idea due to the rampant termites present everywhere. I would use the concrete and steel PermaColumns.

 

[astroracer]

In my opinion pole barns are not a good long term value in most locations.

Placing wood especially the low grade 3rd or 4th growth timber available now, even treated below grade, in contact with dirt, gravel, water and insects isn't a good idea.

The weakest link, the rotting pole is hard to near impossible to replace.

2nd because there is no framing between poles, if you are going to insulate, wire and sheetrock it, you have to add it all.
So why not just go with stick frame to begin with?

3rd lots of air leaks in pole barn construction vs exterior sheeted and wrapped stick frame, which means a much lower energy efficient building.

Pole barns were OK for what they were originally for. Low cost structure to keep Betsy and the hay reasonably dry. When they started rotting and listing, you propped them up from the outside.
Eventually they fall over and you build another.

Well, I'll disagree here also. Just as an example... My pole barn was built in '85. That makes it 31 years old. The original structure was 30 x 48. It was less then a quarter the price of a stick built of that size. I built what I could afford. I finished the inside over a few years, also, as I could afford it.
The barn is tight, (sheathed and wrapped with Tyvek prior to the vinyl siding) AND, it is not falling down, not even showing a glimmer of it.... After 31 years I consider that a pretty good investment.
I know your concerns are valid but the real world experience here is that, in my life time this barn will still be standing and I'll be the one falling down.
Mark

 

[joshmodelskidoo]

i would just fix what you have if your on sand and get the water away from the building with gutters. Use a roof underlayment like felt paper or better under the steel but don't use rolled roofing because the rocks will take the finish off and it will rust.

 

[DougWil]

Well, I'll disagree here also. Just as an example... My pole barn was built in '85. That makes it 31 years old. The original structure was 30 x 48. It was less then a quarter the price of a stick built of that size. I built what I could afford. I finished the inside over a few years, also, as I could afford it.
The barn is tight, (sheathed and wrapped with Tyvek prior to the vinyl siding) AND, it is not falling down, not even showing a glimmer of it.... After 31 years I consider that a pretty good investment.
I know your concerns are valid but the real world experience here is that, in my life time this barn will still be standing and I'll be the one falling down.
Mark

Well, you can't see the rot that may be happening several feet below the ground.
And eventually when that rot takes it's toll the building will be a total tear down, total loss of investment and the value goes below zero because you have to cart it away.

The initial cost of a pole barn is low, because it is unfinished. Once you add all that framing, slab, insulation, sheet rock, wiring, lighting, etc,, to finish it there is little savings over stick built.

There is no reason a well built garage, with a proper footing, drainage and maintenance shouldn't last hundreds of years.

My 25x40 shop was 4 years old when I bought the property. It was placed in a very foolish location on the property (priced accordingly), so I moved it and raised it up 2 courses of CMU. It was originally a mono slab with the framing directly on the slab.

Even though it was above exterior grade the pressure treated sole plate was already partially rotted around any openings like the man and roll up doors where water was able to contact the slab/pressure treated plate after only 4 years!

 

[astroracer]

Well, you can't see the rot that may be happening several feet below the ground.
And eventually when that rot takes it's toll the building will be a total tear down, total loss of investment and the value goes below zero because you have to cart it away.

The initial cost of a pole barn is low, because it is unfinished. Once you add all that framing, slab, insulation, sheet rock, wiring, lighting, etc,, to finish it there is little savings over stick built.

There is no reason a well built garage, with a proper footing, drainage and maintenance shouldn't last hundreds of years.

My 25x40 shop was 4 years old when I bought the property. It was placed in a very foolish location on the property (priced accordingly), so I moved it and raised it up 2 courses of CMU. It was originally a mono slab with the framing directly on the slab.

Even though it was above exterior grade the pressure treated sole plate was already partially rotted around any openings like the man and roll up doors where water was able to contact the slab/pressure treated plate after only 4 years!

Okay, you're right! I am calling tomorrow to get quotes to bulldoze my building because it is a pole barn piece of ****. I feel so stupid for building this thing 30 years ago even though it was all I could afford and I needed a building. My GOD what an idiot I am... Just shoot me.

 

[05r50]

Being a pole barn owner I have to say I don't agree with much of the anti-pole barn argument.

For one, mine is insulated and finished inside. Has full electric and heat, doesn't whistle when the wind blows and is very comfortable. And because it cost less to construct I have even more money sunk into my tools that are in that shop.

No additional framing was needed to add electric. All the outlets are in conduit mounted on the wall surface ( I can change or add more without fishing then the walls)

The posts are treated, yes, and they are in ground. I will be long dead before one of those posts rots.

My in-laws barn is pushing 50 years and no failures yet. Plus theirs has been absorbing urine and manure the whole time.

If the op wants an excuse to tear down, so be-it. But I would think there would be plenty of salvage to advertise on CL.

 

[DougWil]

The posts are treated, yes, and they are in ground. I will be long dead before one of those posts rots.

My in-laws barn is pushing 50 years and no failures yet. Plus theirs has been absorbing urine and manure the whole time.

It is always amusing when someone uses economic yardstick of "I will be long dead before...."

A building is a major investment, the longer the usable life the more wealth retained or returned for your heirs.
Plus less wasted natural resources and energy.

I have seen pole barn posts rotted out after 25 years.



My grandfather built his 6 bedroom house and detached stick frame 25x40 garage in the 1930s, it is approaching it's 1st 100 years and shows no sign of deteriorating and just keeps increasing in value.

 

[astroracer]

It is always amusing when someone uses economic yardstick of "I will be long dead before...."

A building is a major investment, the longer the usable life the more wealth retained or returned for your heirs.
Plus less wasted natural resources and energy.

I have seen pole barn posts rotted out after 25 years.



My grandfather built his 6 bedroom house and detached stick frame 25x40 garage in the 1930s, it is approaching it's 1st 100 years and shows no sign of deteriorating and just keeps increasing in value.

You, Sir, have a perfect life! While the rest of wallow in our drafty, rotting pole barns. Pray for us and our crumbling barns.

 

[astroracer]

Hey DougWil! My house has a....... wait for it...... WOOD FOUNDATION!!!!! What's your "opinion" on that?
I really want to apologize to the OP for all of the really unnecessary drama here about how bad pole barns are.... Really uncalled for and not on topic. If the moderaters want to take all of the "discussion" to a new thread please do. Or not, it probably doesn't matter anyway.
Mark

 

[05r50]

This is one of those threads where if the Amish used the Internet they would shake their head, point, and say "those English,".


Back to the topic. My opinion is that structure is repairable. But it's not my money.

 

[kerr]

Long as it gets built to a usable condition is all that matter . LOL

 

[DougWil]

There is no drama, and no need to get all emotional about it.
Simply, a completely finished, insulated, wired and interior sheeted wood in the ground pole building has probably 90% or more the cost of stick built and fraction of the life.

You may get longer life with favorable soil conditions, less bugs and better wood/wood treatment, but in these parts of the NW commercially treated power poles with frequent maintenance injections of treatment last about 50 years.
When those 50 year old poles fail you literally can poke your finger through them.


That is why many have moved to a concrete pier below ground and bolted wood post above on pole structures..

 

[tim9lives]

Seems to me that a properly built and maintained pole barn will last well over 100 years. But...the key is to maintain it and that includes making sure that water does not collect at the base...Especially where the poles meet the ground. Proper drainage and a little Boracare or Timbor should do the trick to prevent any wood rot.
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/t...Po_5lhH5QrnvD4-D29m59VuRoCUnfw_wcB&sub_id=663

 

[DougWil]

Seems to me that a properly built and maintained pole barn will last well over 100 years.

Unfortunately that is not the case for many pole barn owners.
There are many factors than can affect the life of treated wood, but 2 of the biggest are wood quality and treatment.

Wood quality has deteriorated because trees are grown to harvest faster, in nutrient poor soil, producing less dense, less durable wood with lower structural properties.

Chemical treatment has also suffered due to the restrictions of environmental regulations. The most effective and toxic chemicals simply aren't allowed anymore.

Plenty of pole barn owners have serious rot issues after as little as 20 years!
Here is an example.

"In the spring of 1983 we lost a barn to fire. As a replacement we built a WICK BUILDING. At that time we were assured the posts would last a lifetime and in addition, the posts were a full 6" square which according to Wick would add another level of longevity to the building.

Fast forward to present day, (July, 2013) and the rate of decay on the posts allows a pocket knife to be inserted at the ground level a good 2" all the way around each post."
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/284437-pole-barn-posts-rotting.html

The reality is pole buildings serve their purpose as a low cost shell with a dirt/gravel floor and relativity easy access to replacing rotted poles or sistering another along side.

They don't as a long term property investment when that shell is layered under concrete slabs, additional framing, insulation, wiring, interior sheeting /trim, heating systems etc, because all of that is in the way of pole replacement/repair.

Effectively making repairs economically nonviable and the building a teardown.

Which could have been avoided or postponed for decades or centuries later if a conventional footing, perma columns or drilled and cast concrete piers had been used.