Ahh. Another genius! I also built in '80, and people laughed at my double wall because it would take so long to pay for the extra insul/wood; "All you need is a 2x6"). Oil was $1.10 a gal, and it was going to take 13 yrs to repay me. Needless to say, I got my money back faster. Insulation is not rocket science; Q = U (A) (delta T).brad d; said:
Using combo of batts and spray-in?
- Thread starter jklingel
- Start date
GSSFC
Well-known member
Re: No spray for me, now
It is that simple! I have my own buildings to justify my response as well as countless others I have done who can back up my claims. Let me give a couple quick real life examples. I don't care what you end up doing but I KNOW what I am talking about, R-VALUE isn't all there is to it!
Take your freezer in your house. Mine is standard right off the Lowes display floor. It is -18*F in side it. It is 70*F inside my house right now. Any condensation? If you touch the freezer, does it feel cold? There is ONE INCH of spray foam between the inside of the freezer and the outside.
Take your hot water heater (if you have one). Mine is 120*F inside it and 59*F in the basement. Any condensation? Does the water heater feel hot when you touch it? There is ONE INCH of foam between the tank and the basement.
I have 1 inch in my shop and it heats faster and holds the heat better than ANY fiberglass shop I have ever been in.
You do what you want, but there is nothing better than foam. I install foam, fiberglass and cellulose and could have had R-100 in my shop if I wanted with any of the products or combination of them. Instead I have R-6 with foam. Go figure!
Tim
It is that simple! I have my own buildings to justify my response as well as countless others I have done who can back up my claims. Let me give a couple quick real life examples. I don't care what you end up doing but I KNOW what I am talking about, R-VALUE isn't all there is to it!
Take your freezer in your house. Mine is standard right off the Lowes display floor. It is -18*F in side it. It is 70*F inside my house right now. Any condensation? If you touch the freezer, does it feel cold? There is ONE INCH of spray foam between the inside of the freezer and the outside.
Take your hot water heater (if you have one). Mine is 120*F inside it and 59*F in the basement. Any condensation? Does the water heater feel hot when you touch it? There is ONE INCH of foam between the tank and the basement.
I have 1 inch in my shop and it heats faster and holds the heat better than ANY fiberglass shop I have ever been in.
You do what you want, but there is nothing better than foam. I install foam, fiberglass and cellulose and could have had R-100 in my shop if I wanted with any of the products or combination of them. Instead I have R-6 with foam. Go figure!
Tim
Tiim: Thanks for the reply. The appliance analogies, though of interest, are not an apples-to comparison, as I think other factors are involved. (I believe your frost-free freezer circulates air through it, thus avoiding condensation by sending it into your house. That is why older freezers DID condense. On a water heater, I don't see any dew point in the thermal gradient where condensation would occur anyway.) But, a GARAGE means something. Do you have any data on your building? Dimensions, heating degree days in your area, amount oil (or whatever) used? Has anyone ever built any 20 x 20, or so, buildings and insulated one "standard" and one w/ 1" of foam, then recorded oil used over a year? If I only had the money to do so, I would in a heat beat. A head to head comparison would be of immense value; otherwise, we have only anecdotal info, which of course may well be accurate, but may be anecdotal. Please understand that I am naturally skeptical of anything that looks too good to be true; been through a few girl friends that were that way! Post any data you have; would love to read it. j
GSSFC
Well-known member
I have several examples I can share, and would be happy to do so, I'll even chat on the phone with you if you want! But I think what would be helpful would be to find someone in your area who has foam and talk to them.
My shop is 2200 square feet including the office above. The shop is radiant in the slab and the office has a rinnai heater. I use 120 gallons of propane a year to heat it. I am in New Hampshire so it gets quite cold, probably not as cold as you in Alaska, but definitely stretches of below zero *F for days - weeks with very high winds and snow (120+ inches last year).
I sprayed a 4500 square foot house last January. When i finished the homeowner had 450 gallons of home heating oil put in his empty tanks. He heated the house to mid to upper 60's all winter long (until April timeframe). This was a house under construction all winter and still is...
. Anyway, he called me and told me last week he had his tank refilled and he used 300 gallons...that was it!
I did a house in a new development. There were two under construction by the same GC mirror images of each other. One house was sold already and the new homeowners wanted to upgrade to foam. The other was insulated traditionally with fiberglass. All the rest of the stuff was identical down to boiler type, heating system etc. The house with foam used 2 tanks of oil during the heating season (the domestic hot waster was provided by the same boiler). The house that was traditionally insulated used a tank of oil every 3-4 weeks!!
I did a house (ok camp) that was up on piers and had fiberglass installed between the floor joists. His complaint was that the furnace would run ALL weekend/week and the house would never get warm, literally would run non-stop from when they arrived to when they left and on the brutally cold nights the temp would actually drop instead of increase. I installed 2" of closed cell foam and he said it not only allowed the furnace to keep up with the woodstove running it would actually get so warm the furnace would never even cycle.
I have so many examples as I look back at my books it blows my mind. There is NOT ONE SINGLE who has ever said after the job was done and they could experience the results wished they hadn't done it.
As I said, I could have whatever I wanted in my shop. Money wasn't an issue (hey I wanted to be comfortable). I installed 1" of closed cell foam and not once do I wish I had done it differently. I also installed 2" of 3# roof foam under the hydronic tubing in the slab to prevent downward heat loss.
I read back on your posts and I am also noticing a concern and effort to stop the thermal break. My design to accomplish that in the walls was to utilize a 2x6 top and bottom plate. I then used 2x4 studs 12" on center BUT alternated which side of the plate (interior vs exterior) that I nailed them. This provided me a 24" oc wall to apply my sheathing and drywall but not one single stud touched both, so the only thermal bridge was the plates and corners. In the roof I installed 1/2" rigid foam board below the rafters and then the drywall to that to minimize eliminate the thermal bridge the rafters would normally offer.
To tired to type more!
Tim
My shop is 2200 square feet including the office above. The shop is radiant in the slab and the office has a rinnai heater. I use 120 gallons of propane a year to heat it. I am in New Hampshire so it gets quite cold, probably not as cold as you in Alaska, but definitely stretches of below zero *F for days - weeks with very high winds and snow (120+ inches last year).
I sprayed a 4500 square foot house last January. When i finished the homeowner had 450 gallons of home heating oil put in his empty tanks. He heated the house to mid to upper 60's all winter long (until April timeframe). This was a house under construction all winter and still is...
. Anyway, he called me and told me last week he had his tank refilled and he used 300 gallons...that was it! I did a house in a new development. There were two under construction by the same GC mirror images of each other. One house was sold already and the new homeowners wanted to upgrade to foam. The other was insulated traditionally with fiberglass. All the rest of the stuff was identical down to boiler type, heating system etc. The house with foam used 2 tanks of oil during the heating season (the domestic hot waster was provided by the same boiler). The house that was traditionally insulated used a tank of oil every 3-4 weeks!!
I did a house (ok camp) that was up on piers and had fiberglass installed between the floor joists. His complaint was that the furnace would run ALL weekend/week and the house would never get warm, literally would run non-stop from when they arrived to when they left and on the brutally cold nights the temp would actually drop instead of increase. I installed 2" of closed cell foam and he said it not only allowed the furnace to keep up with the woodstove running it would actually get so warm the furnace would never even cycle.
I have so many examples as I look back at my books it blows my mind. There is NOT ONE SINGLE who has ever said after the job was done and they could experience the results wished they hadn't done it.
As I said, I could have whatever I wanted in my shop. Money wasn't an issue (hey I wanted to be comfortable). I installed 1" of closed cell foam and not once do I wish I had done it differently. I also installed 2" of 3# roof foam under the hydronic tubing in the slab to prevent downward heat loss.
I read back on your posts and I am also noticing a concern and effort to stop the thermal break. My design to accomplish that in the walls was to utilize a 2x6 top and bottom plate. I then used 2x4 studs 12" on center BUT alternated which side of the plate (interior vs exterior) that I nailed them. This provided me a 24" oc wall to apply my sheathing and drywall but not one single stud touched both, so the only thermal bridge was the plates and corners. In the roof I installed 1/2" rigid foam board below the rafters and then the drywall to that to minimize eliminate the thermal bridge the rafters would normally offer.
To tired to type more!
Tim