Using gas to reduce electrical load

[AZ ranch]

I have 200 amp service with a 60 amp sub panel in the garage.
I need 100 amps in the garage for several 15 amp mini splits (4) and kitchen appliances.
I was planning on using gas to eliminate the electric load of the water heater, range, and dryer in the house( want gas anyway).
Or is it more cost effective to go to 300 amp main service?

 

[u2slow]

Usually the next step after 200a is 400a (even if 320a) and that can cost a LOT.

I think piped gas is the smarter route, especially if your electric rates are tiered.

I would probably try the 100A in the garage first, and see if you can manage the load yourself. (As in don't cook with both ranges and dry laundry at the same time.)

 

[ycgoat]

Do both if you can; upgrade the electrical service and bring in gas for heat or back up heat.

 

[The Cobbler]

depends on your pricing for each service, but in most cases ( if not all) it is cheaper to use NAt gas than electricity for anything heat related

 

[AZ ranch]

Usually the next step after 200a is 400a (even if 320a) and that can cost a LOT.

I think piped gas is the smarter route, especially if your electric rates are tiered.

I would probably try the 100A in the garage first, and see if you can manage the load yourself. (As in don't cook with both ranges and dry laundry at the same time.)

I will use gas in the garage kitchen as well, saving the electric for the splits and a refrigerator, disposal, washer.
I have the 60 amp panel in the garage only, so I will run another 60 amp line to the garage for second panel.
Taking the Range, Water Heater and the Dryer off should give me the additional 60.

 

[dcg9381]

I have 320A service - 200A to the house, 90A to the shop.
I chose LPG in the shop because I wanted tankless water heaters and didn't want to deal with the massive power requirements.
We're not even close to using 320A at peak, I don't think I've seen a peak over 90A between both structures... But yes, having gas heat can allows you to avoid some high draw electrical heat situations.
My residence was done by a plumber (LPG) - but the shop I did myself with no prior experience. You just need to leak test the **** out of it.
Shop LPG is actually 100lb "portable" propane tanks that I refill from time to time... But 100lb of LPG is at my personal limit of handling them myself. The tankless water heater in the shop will heat 3-4 GPM - cost around $200, more than enough to run a shower / washing machine at the same time... (Course it depends on the incoming water temperature too).

I found that my 24K BTU ductless units pull less than 12A continuous.

The other advantage to gas is that heat pumps get really inefficient at cold temps, unless you get one designed to function below 32 degrees.

 

[mike93lx]

Adding gas lines is not cheap. I was quoted about 1100 just to run service to my grill. On top of that, the fuel isn't free.

Do some calcs before jumping on this

 

[SlappyWhite]

There will be a few factors:

• The cost to get gas to the house if it is not there now (some utilities do it for "free" or cheap knowing you will be paying them $$$s for the gas).
• Then the cost to plumb the gas through the house to each appliance.
• If your appliances are newer and do not need repair vs you were buying new ones anyways.
• Condition of the current electrical, will a new service trigger other upgrades, or drama with the utility.

My 2 cents, if the gas is there now (or cheap to get to the house) and you are replacing appliances anyways it is a possible option. If you will be replacing appliances that do not need to be replaced and you have to pay to have the gas installed it may not be.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

gas prices are way up right now, and may not be coming down any time soon. what kind of actual consumption and pricing do you have? geo location? I am currently figuring out how to get RID of gas appliances. they're too inefficient and expensive to operate.

 

[AZ ranch]

I have 320A service - 200A to the house, 90A to the shop.
I chose LPG in the shop because I wanted tankless water heaters and didn't want to deal with the massive power requirements.
We're not even close to using 320A at peak, I don't think I've seen a peak over 90A between both structures... But yes, having gas heat can allows you to avoid some high draw electrical heat situations.
My residence was done by a plumber (LPG) - but the shop I did myself with no prior experience. You just need to leak test the **** out of it.
Shop LPG is actually 100lb "portable" propane tanks that I refill from time to time... But 100lb of LPG is at my personal limit of handling them myself. The tankless water heater in the shop will heat 3-4 GPM - cost around $200, more than enough to run a shower / washing machine at the same time... (Course it depends on the incoming water temperature too).

I found that my 24K BTU ductless units pull less than 12A continuous.

The other advantage to gas is that heat pumps get really inefficient at cold temps, unless you get one designed to function below 32 degrees.

Thanks

My heating is minimal in AZ so the electric is just (4) 15 amp splits in the garage.
I am banking on 3 appliances going gas in the house to give me the power to do some electric.
Yes you can put 100 lb/or gallon anywhere, going tankless as well.
As of now I have no electric bill by my solar.

 

[AZ ranch]

gas prices are way up right now, and may not be coming down any time soon. what kind of actual consumption and pricing do you have? geo location? I am currently figuring out how to get RID of gas appliances. they're too inefficient and expensive to operate.

just 2 stoves, 2 dryers and 2 tankless water heaters 400 gal once year is the estimate.
No heating, bringing 200 amp more to the ranch is $42,000

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks

My heating is minimal in AZ so the electric

That's what I would have said in Texas until 2020. I'm now paying $20/month for the next 3 years to pay for power that wasn't delivered to most people here. (The utility basically spread the massive cost of importing power during that freeze out to all members)

In all seriousness though, I'm with you, I didn't design my ductless units to really heat. It makes no difference 98% of the time, but when it dips to below 32 degrees, your heating capacity drops by 50% or worse very quickly... And your electrical consumption remains the same. Our shop won't hold "decent" temperature below about 35 degrees ambient. We lived in that shop for 18 months, so solutions were needed.

My solution was portable vent-less LPG heaters. At the house, I tapped the lines for the gas range, and 2 tankless water heaters. Our entire home can be heated off a single 30K BTU propane heater, it'll hold 72 degrees inside when it's 27 degrees out without any electrical heat... The marvels of modern insulation... The shop isn't as well insulated, but propane heat supplements it now.

 

[mike93lx]

Gas ranges do some nasty things to indoor air quality. I'd be looking at induction way before gas.

I bet a bigger sub to the shop gets this done no problem. Worrying about a 320a upgrade or spending a ton to swap stuff out to gas without even having a load Calc is jumping the gun

 

[Norcal]

Gas ranges do some nasty things to indoor air quality. I'd be looking at induction way before gas.

I bet a bigger sub to the shop gets this done no problem. Worrying about a 320a upgrade or spending a ton to swap stuff out to gas without even having a load Calc is jumping the gun

My kitchen is all electric, water & space heating is nat gas, & I like it that way, rental is the same, last time my kitchen was painted was in 1994, and that is without a range hood too.

 

[mike93lx]

My kitchen is all electric, water & space heating is nat gas, & I like it that way, rental is the same, last time my kitchen was painted was in 1994, and that is without a range hood too.

Same here. I'll be swapping to an induction range reasonably soon. Clothes dryer is electric as well. Just so simple to deal with stuff like moving it to clean duct work, service the washer, pickup **** that fell behind, etc.

 

[Norcal]

Same here. I'll be swapping to an induction range reasonably soon. Clothes dryer is electric as well. Just so simple to deal with stuff like moving it to clean duct work, service the washer, pickup **** that fell behind, etc.

Gas was plumbed for the dryer in 1994 when the utility room & new 3-car garage was built, old one was on the septic tank from 1957-1994, the cap on the stub out has not been touched since.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

just 2 stoves, 2 dryers and 2 tankless water heaters 400 gal once year is the estimate.
No heating, bringing 200 amp more to the ranch is $42,000

tankless electric fits into "folly" in my book. those would be my primary target. I'm looking to delete my chimney entirely (it's in an inconvenient spot), so my options are high efficiency electric (HPWH), plain electric tank (no thanks $), or PVC vented gas. I personally hate the sound that power vented gas appliances make.

I'm looking at the Sanden CO2 water heater. 80 gal stainless tank (no anode rods, no rusting out). puts out up to 160F water, works down to -25F. same heating rate as a standard 4kW electric tank, just at 1/4 the operating price. it's not cheap, but I'd wager it's way cheaper than a gas line.

There are a few other options out there but not as quiet. Nyle has a 60K BTU electric HWPH that works down to 10F, but it looks more of a commercial unit.

Gas ranges do some nasty things to indoor air quality. I'd be looking at induction way before gas.

I bet a bigger sub to the shop gets this done no problem. Worrying about a 320a upgrade or spending a ton to swap stuff out to gas without even having a load Calc is jumping the gun

I don't mind cooking on gas, but my problem is, it does not do well on power density. even with a 17K BTU burner, my stove was taking 25 minutes to boil a full pot of water.

I did some testing: Cold tap water heated to boiling (2L)
Plug in kettle 1.5kw (5000BTU): 9:32min - this is my 100% efficiency benchmark.

I bought an amazon induction single burner to try it out. Induction "1.5kw": 13:35min

and I bought one of those heatsink bottomed high speed gas only pots: Rapid pot 17k burner: 9:15min

so it takes gas THREE TIMES the BTU to heat the same amount of water, to the same temp, as electric. meanwhile, my kitchen is hot as hell, the exhaust fan is screaming away (yes, mine actually goes outside), and I now have to re-AirCon all the hot, humid outside air the exhaust fan removed to get the fumes out of my house (or in the winter, re-humidify and re-heat all the air i just threw away). I have to pay for that, too.

my other problem with gas: I like cooking on cast iron. if I want to make a LOT of hash browns (just for example), even starting with a nice, hot, oiled pan, the heat just goes around the pan, not into the pan. it can't keep up. with induction, this is not a problem. If I put my smaller skillet, cold, on the induction burner, put butter on it, then turn it on, it starts melting within 15 seconds. amazing. the only problem here is it's limited to the 12A 125V wall outlet for power, and the burner isn't big enough to fit the big skillet.
An induction cooktop's big burner is often 3500-4500W of power (15kBTU) - but something like 90% of that goes INTO the pan, not around it. 90% induction vs 30% for gas. the winner is clear.

 

[nadogail]

My Induction Cook Top installation instructions called for a 50 Amp 220 feed. I had to run a new 6 gauge feed from the Sub Panel.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

i think virtually all cooktops are either hardwired 40/50A, or 6-50 (now 14-50) with a 40 or 50A breaker.

fun fact, 6-50 & 14-50 are the only outlets you're allowed to put a smaller breaker on by code (AFAIK).

but the only time you'd pull that full amperage would be with all the burners on high, at the same time. I know of know one who cooks like that. pretty sure that's reflected in the load calc tables, too. what're you doing? boiling all the water at once?

 

[FredWanaker]

Next time you watch a professional chef, notice that they are cooking with gas and not electric. Right now electric here is time of day pricing. We can't do anything in the house after 12pm or before midnight without paying premium rates. At 5pm, about the time you would cook dinner the electric rates here triple.

 

[Norcal]

Next time you watch a professional chef, notice that they are cooking with gas and not electric. Right now electric here is time of day pricing. We can't do anything in the house after 12pm or before midnight without paying premium rates. At 5pm, about the time you would cook dinner the electric rates here triple.

My time is 4-9PM seven days a week, just love Pacific Graft & Extortion. But then you have cities like Bezerkly banning gas in new homes, I like electric but lots of people like gas cooktops, or dual fuel ranges, gas cooktop, electric oven, saw some electric commercial ranges strange, a restaurant would look weird not having gas.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Most restaurants you can't even see the kitchen. I doubt people care much. a good chef can apply heat to food in a pan over any heat source.

Next time you watch a professional chef, notice that they are cooking with gas and not electric. Right now electric here is time of day pricing. We can't do anything in the house after 12pm or before midnight without paying premium rates. At 5pm, about the time you would cook dinner the electric rates here triple.

tell me more about a fantastically successful marketing ploy, much like "diamonds are forever". you know, diamonds are just coal. I wonder if you could grill on them.


who paid for that? why the gas company!


and sure, why are the professionals cooking with gas? well let me see what they learned on?

but last time I checked, no one cares if the fryer is gas fired or electric, or if the flat top is electric. my favorite food at the bar near work happens to be cooked on an electric char-broiler. the pizza place has electric ovens, and also wood fired ovens.

 

[dcg9381]

My Induction Cook Top installation instructions called for a 50 Amp 220 feed. I had to run a new 6 gauge feed from the Sub Panel.

We've gone induction also. I also plumbed the stove for gas (just in case). I've found that the efficiency of induction varies greatly depending on what pot/pan you choose to use and how much magnetic material it has in it.

It is super neat to be able to JUST heat the pot/pan and not heat the whole house.

I'll pulling out the propane oven/stove in our RV one of these days, putting in an induction setup and retaining one propane burner.

 

[nadogail]

Most of the houses in my community have gas stoves in the kitchens, not because they are better but IMHO they were deemed more economical and the gas supply was more reliable when they were installed.

 

[Metal-Marc]

Think about cleaning a gas cooktop vs cleaning an induction cooktop. I've got an induction oven and every time I go visit a friend with a gas cooktop, I just shake my head at how involved it is to clean the dang thing. LoL

 

[SlappyWhite]

Gas is the best for cook tops for cooking for highly skilled chefs, specially making sauces etc. as it allows for quicker downward temperature control in combination with things like high quality copper cookware etc. Making sauces is a great example as the temp can be turned down quickly and the copper cookware will drop the temp quickly preventing the sauce from burning or even boiling over.

Induction is great and all but it is not a true Chefs tool. It boils water fast no doubt, maybe more energy efficient. The requirement of magnetic cookware means that the cookware holds it temp (thermal mass) and when the sauce (using this as an example, there are many other) starts to get too hot shutting it off will be too late. The main problem is it limits you to one magnetic cookware (one style of tool).

On a coil stove you can still use the appropriate cookware for the job but lift it (as the coil takes a bit to cool off).

Real cooking is truly about more than the stove and the cookware for the job is very important, any stove that limits you choice of tool is limiting the fine points. Admittedly most people are not working down to those fine points and "boiling water" is the main goal..... Just like tools, it is about the right tool for the job not one things fits all.

For the oven gas provides no value IMO and that is why "dual fuel" is getting more and more popular. Stove top is gas, oven electric. I would like to see one step more with maybe one or two induction on one side for making kraft dinner like things and gas on the other, best of all worlds....

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Gas is the best for cook tops for cooking for highly skilled chefs, specially making sauces etc. as it allows for quicker downward temperature control in combination with things like high quality copper cookware etc. Making sauces is a great example as the temp can be turned down quickly and the copper cookware will drop the temp quickly preventing the sauce from burning or even boiling over.

Induction is great and all but it is not a true Chefs tool. It boils water fast no doubt, maybe more energy efficient. The requirement of magnetic cookware means that the cookware holds it temp (thermal mass) and when the sauce (using this as an example, there are many other) starts to get too hot shutting it off will be too late. The main problem is it limits you to one magnetic cookware (one style of tool).

On a coil stove you can still use the appropriate cookware for the job but lift it (as the coil takes a bit to cool off).

Real cooking is truly about more than the stove and the cookware for the job is very important, any stove that limits you choice of tool is limiting the fine points. Admittedly most people are not working down to those fine points and "boiling water" is the main goal..... Just like tools, it is about the right tool for the job not one things fits all.

For the oven gas provides no value IMO and that is why "dual fuel" is getting more and more popular. Stove top is gas, oven electric. I would like to see one step more with maybe one or two induction on one side for making kraft dinner like things and gas on the other, best of all worlds....

downward adjustments on induction are faster than they are on gas. copper cookware works just fine on induction. it doesn't have to be ferrous, it just has to have magnetic properties. like the copper windings in an induction motor.

I'd be happy to make pecan pralines on this:

Breville Control Freak® Smart Induction Cooker

Designed for commercial kitchens, the Control Freak induction cooking system gives you unprecedented control of pan temperature and heat-up speed, which are both crucial for low-heat cooking. Set and hold heat to the exact degree for slow

www.williams-sonoma.com

my $60 amazon induction hob has temperature control, but it's terrible. controlling by wattage is pretty close to gas behavior. it makes cast iron feel way faster.

 

[u2slow]

tankless electric fits into "folly" in my book. those would be my primary target. I'm looking to delete my chimney entirely (it's in an inconvenient spot), so my options are high efficiency electric (HPWH), plain electric tank (no thanks $), or PVC vented gas. I personally hate the sound that power vented gas appliances make.

I'm still at least 20 years behind on gas and forget the new appliances are power-vented. Do they still work in a power outage?

I do recognize gas appliances need maintenance - something I would take on myself. Not sure it's everyone's cup of tea.

I'm stuck with wood and electric. There are no cheaper alternatives here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Most restaurants you can't even see the kitchen. I doubt people care much. a good chef can apply heat to food in a pan over any heat source.

tell me more about a fantastically successful marketing ploy, much like "diamonds are forever". you know, diamonds are just coal. I wonder if you could grill on them.


who paid for that? why the gas company!


and sure, why are the professionals cooking with gas? well let me see what they learned on?

but last time I checked, no one cares if the fryer is gas fired or electric, or if the flat top is electric. my favorite food at the bar near work happens to be cooked on an electric char-broiler. the pizza place has electric ovens, and also wood fired ovens.

if you think chefs dont care about using gas for their commercial kitchens/restaurants think again. you shouldve seen the huge backlash from chefs and restaurants in the bay area when bezerkley, SJ, SF and other cities started announcing their approved bans on natural gas in new buildings and eventually existing buildings(absolute insanity). It was a big story on the news for some time...

also banning natural gas in a state that cant keep the lights on is a recipe for disaster in the winter when people will not be able to heat their home because the power is out (happened recently to a friend of mine and the entire town of alpine; power was out for a month as profit gouge and execute took for ever to restore power after a major winter storm)

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I'm still at least 20 years behind on gas and forget the new appliances are power-vented. Do they still work in a power outage?

I do recognize gas appliances need maintenance - something I would take on myself. Not sure it's everyone's cup of tea.

I'm stuck with wood and electric. There are no cheaper alternatives here.

not without some other source of electricity. just like a forced air furnace.

if you think chefs dont care about using gas for their commercial kitchens/restaurants think again. you shouldve seen the huge backlash from chefs and restaurants in the bay area when bezerkley, SJ, SF and other cities started announcing their approved bans on natural gas in new buildings and eventually existing buildings(absolute insanity). It was a big story on the news for some time...

also banning natural gas in a state that cant keep the lights on is a recipe for disaster in the winter when people will not be able to heat their home because the power is out (happened recently to a friend of mine and the entire town of alpine; power was out for a month as profit gouge and execute took for ever to restore power after a major winter storm)

of course they care. no one likes being told what to do. that's not my point. I mean the people eating the food. I dgaf what they used to cook if if they did it right.

a commercial kitchen can't run without electricity either way. ovens don't work, exhaust hoods don't work, fridges don't work. and you can't just compare moving the NG bill over to the electric bill either. combustion appliances require substantially more ventilation and mechanical cooling than electric ones do. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if using induction/resistance for a kitchen used substantially less total energy than a gas fuelled kitchen. i.e. it would be significantly cheaper to operate.

for me to run my 17kBTU oven and 17kBTU burner to boil a pot of pasta water, that's 34k BTU/hr. the same as my water heater. but now I have to run my 400CFM exhaust fan, and if it's 20F outside and 73F inside, that's 20kBTU/hr of air I have to replace and reheat.

so burning 34k of gas to cook has an extra hidden cost of 60% additional fuel burn. it's actually worse once the oven is up to temp, and isn't running 100% duty cycle anymore. the same problem exists in the summer, just forcing my AC to work that much harder.

commercial kitchens typically have their own MAUs, that burn fuel/have AC.

 

[dcg9381]

All I can say is the "efficiency" of induction is highly related to the cookware you're using. We have pots that boil water in just a few minutes and others that won't boil water in 10 minutes. Induction is a different beast.
I'm no Chef...

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you have natural gas available, do it. You will save money in the long run.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

All I can say is the "efficiency" of induction is highly related to the cookware you're using. We have pots that boil water in just a few minutes and others that won't boil water in 10 minutes. Induction is a different beast.
I'm no Chef...

I got one of these. it is so much faster than before. but even this is only 30% efficient. a flat bottom pot was like 10% efficient. and I don't really care about the dollar value here, I care about my TIME. waiting 30 minutes for water to boil is really annoying.


induction cookware that is "less efficient" will actually pull less power from the wall on the same setting. I played around with mine plugged into a kill-a-watt.

 

[dcg9381]

I got one of these. it is so much faster than before. but even this is only 30% efficient. a flat bottom pot was like 10% efficient. and I don't really care about the dollar value here, I care about my TIME. waiting 30 minutes for water to boil is really annoying.

induction cookware that is "less efficient" will actually pull less power from the wall on the same setting. I played around with mine plugged into a kill-a-watt.

That's interesting... I need to think about that for a bit (or go back to school and re-learn most of what I forgot).
I'm all over this for an RV, but for a house, it's been an interesting experiment and not everyone is going to be a fan.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

That's interesting... I need to think about that for a bit (or go back to school and re-learn most of what I forgot).
I'm all over this for an RV, but for a house, it's been an interesting experiment and not everyone is going to be a fan.

a regular pot might work better on an open/star burner, but my range is all closed burners, I assume for ease of cleaning, but it's definitely to the detriment of cooking.