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Using metal from twisted axle.

Mallen

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This is totally hypothetical,but it just occured to me and some day it might be good to know. Suppose I have a badly twisted axle shaft. Obviously the metal is "damaged" and " weakened" however you want to interpret that. But supposed I want to cut a length of it out and use it for something else. If I heat it cherry red, then cool it down slowly (however slow you need to cool it, whether that is buried in sand, buried in sand heated to 500 degrees, or in a temperature controlled heat treating furnace, basically however that alloy needs to be cooled to aneal it) is it fully restored to it's original specs or would I have to fully melt it and resolidify it. My thinking is raising it cherry red, annealing it, then heat treating it will erase it's history.

Edit: to be clearer, clearly an annealed peice of metal is weaker than the final heat treated product. But after annealing, then making a part from it and heat treating it, is there any history of the damage left.
 
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joe49

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No, it will not return to it's original strength with doing what you asked, it will be annealed and weaker.
 
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Mallen

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No, it will not return to it's original strength with doing what you asked, it will be annealed and weaker.
Of course it will be weaker after annealing. Between me not being clear and the typos that wasn't communicated I guess. But after heat treating will it's microstructure be restored. Or does it still "remember" the damage.

Thinking about it some more I guess it's no different than annealing and heat treating a stamping.
 

csp

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Seems like the only right answer is it depends, mainly on what the possible intended use would be and if it really matters what the previous damage was. I wouldn't speculate on it until you have a use.
 
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Mallen

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It shouldn't depend upon the use. That is only relevant to "is it strong enough for x. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think the answer is that it forgets it's history. After all, parts are forged or shaped in dies, then heat treated and the metal has the same properties of any other steel of that type.
 

joe49

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Having exceeded the yield, it first has a slight increase in tensil, so small amout stronger. But the amount from tensil will not be known with out thorough testing. If you had stopped just at yield, some of the strength can be recovered by annealing, harding, and tempering again. So it is possible, not really advisable. But now you can use it with a rim bolted to it and welding a plate to the diff end and use as a tool stand.
 
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Mallen

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Having exceeded the yield, it first has a slight increase in tensil, so small amout stronger. But the amount from tensil will not be known with out thorough testing. If you had stopped just at yield, some of the strength can be recovered by annealing, harding, and tempering again. So it is possible, not really advisable. But now you can use it with a rim bolted to it and welding a plate to the diff end and use as a tool stand.
So are positing the only way to recover the original properties is to fully melt it?
 

csp

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It shouldn't depend upon the use. That is only relevant to "is it strong enough for x. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think the answer is that it forgets it's history. After all, parts are forged or shaped in dies, then heat treated and the metal has the same properties of any other steel of that type.
I must have read too much into the title of the thread.
 
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Mallen

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I must have read too much into the title of the thread.
Just an odd thought that occurred to me. No practical reasons. In the past I've thrown them out but if I could use the metal I would save them. The metal is too hard to machine so I would have to anneal it and reheat treat when done. But I wouldn't bother if the end result was "pre damaged". I'd just get a good price of stock to start with. I don't have any right now anyway. So it's just hypothetical.
 

csp

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And hypothetically it still could depend on what you want to use it for. If it's re-used on a decorative project it won't matter. If it's part of a grinder stand it won't matter. See where I'm going with this? Not every use of something broken or removed from another use has to be structural or anywhere close to strength/elasticity/torsion/etc required by the original use. People make mailbox posts from crankshafts.
 
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Mallen

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And hypothetically it still could depend on what you want to use it for. If it's re-used on a decorative project it won't matter. If it's part of a grinder stand it won't matter. See where I'm going with this? Not every use of something broken or removed from another use has to be structural or anywhere close to strength/elasticity/torsion/etc required by the original use. People make mailbox posts from crankshafts.
That's true enough. I get where your coming from. Strength is a relative term. That axle shaft may be weak when talking about putting almost 5000ft/lb of torque though it. On the other hand it's oke tu strong when you leave it on the floor and stub your toe on the way to the bathroom.

I guess the answer to that is "something that requires heat treated 4240 or 4340 or whatever alloy steel like this hypothetical twisted axle shaft is made from" Typically, those alloys would have to be annealed, machined, heat treated, then possibly ground to the final dimensions. That's a lot of work. If it didn't need that kind of strength I'd probably use a piece of mild steel. Obviously, there's the flip side that of I have to do all that work, maybe I would want to just go buy a piece of the right steel. Add to that, with many shafts,that you still won't know exactly what they are made of. But depending on where you get the shaft, you might. Like an stock early 70 D60 shaft would be something you could research. That's a lot of metal to throw in the trash. I've done it a few times over the years. While it might be ok for low strength or non critical parts, it's hard enough to work with that I felt it wasn't worth the trouble. One time I tried to cut a piece of 4130 with a cheap HSS tool. It made a perfect smooth cut the entire way across... the cutting tool. The piece of heat treated 4130 was literally untouched. It was a cheap cutter, but still.
 

Terra Nova

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I'm not a heat treat guy or much of a metallurgist despite some fancy college learnin' on it.

If I understand your question you want to use a part of the axle that was not damaged? Presumably you twisted the splines? It was mentioned above about the yield point. In order for the axle to be damaged its yield point was reached and exceeded. This occurs when the load at a given location is higher than the strength of the material (obviously). But what we really need to be talking about is stress, that load applied over an area (psi). An axle shaft in torsion will fail at it's smallest cross section (typically the minor diameter of the splines). Since axles tend to be tapered any of the thicker parts of the axle shaft will have experienced the same load but not the same stress. So those areas should be just fine, they have no 'memory' of anything.
 
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Monza Harry

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I don't feel like I can answer your question, but I can add the thought that comes to my mind. So after full anneal/normalizing ... and proper heat treat the only thing that would be changed [to my limited experience] would be the initial grain structure, now has a twisted section which I would think would be weaker in one direction (+/_ ?) than the other. Any thoughts/experience from others as I'm curious now too!? Harry
 
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Mallen

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So....I'm a little confused. What is going to be the purpose of the axle once it's annealed? Is it going to be used for something that needs the strength (as in a vise mounted on top) or for ornamental purposes?
Well my thought was, whatever I might need to use a piece of that alloy for. Anything that can be machined from it, a small part, a shaft, or whatever. Certainly I could try and take a section that wasn't twisted. Or just go to the wrecking yard on half price day and find a shaft that is not damaged at all, or just buy a piece of stock from a supplier. If it can't regain full strength after heat treatment, that's what I'd do. But if I can heat it up enough and the structure returns to the same state as a freshly made rod of that alloy, then I'd just keep damaged parts like that. A 35" long piece of 1.3" diameter 4130 is about 30 bucks plus shipping. I'll be I to it for 50 or 60 dollars by the time it gets to my door. It's all about being cheap. I'm going to visit a friend next month and will probably see his coworker as well whose a metallurgist,so I'll ask them if I see them.
 

metlmunchr

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Auto axles aren't made from 4130 or 4140 or 4340 or any other desirable alloy worth salvaging. Some are just plain medium carbon, usually 1055, but most are 1541. 1541 is a manganese strengthened medium carbon steel that's cheap, but still has good toughness properties after induction hardening. However, the high manganese content content makes 1541 difficult to machine and near impossible to weld with reliability.

The poor machinability isn't a problem in the manufacture of axles as there's comparatively little machining involved relative to the size of the part. The only close tolerance turned dimension is the diameter of the area to be splined. The splines are roll formed, and the diameter prior to rolling has to be held close to avoid a partially formed spline, or wrecking the tooling in the case of an oversized diameter. The flange and pilot diameters aren't close tolerance as machining goes and can be plowed off with little regard to surface finish. Same for the roughing of the bearing seat diameter as it's either ground or hard turned after heat treat.

But, if you take a piece of this material and try to make any sort of close tolerance part with good finishes and a nice overall appearance, this **** will fight you all the way. Face and turn a part with a cnmg insert and then come back with a snmg set at 45° to chamfer the corners and it'll cut the chamfers and roll up a couple tiny razor sharp burrs in the process. With a CNC lathe, you can program the finish facing, turning, and chamfering as continuous motions and get around that sort of problem, but you still have to contend with the fact that it'll kill tool edges at about twice the rate of more common high strength alloys such as pre heat treated 4140 or ETD 150, neither of which requires post machining heat treatment to develop it's strength like 1541 does.

I ran some sample parts from this stuff a few years ago for a customer who'd hired some new genius who claimed they could switch from ETD 150 to 1541 and save a bunch of money. I'd previously run a few batches of these, totaling around a couple thousand parts, so I had a well optimized program already. I was running these on a 21,000# Okuma LC series turning center which is among the most rigid lathes ever built, yet running these at my previously established feeds and speeds, the parts came out looking like I might've made them on a HF lathe using tools ground with a side grinder. By the time I diddle-dicked around with the program to the point where I was making a sorta decent looking part, I'd added about $3 per part in additional cycle time.

The 1541 parts would require heat treatment after machining, and one diameter was +0/-.0004 for a bearing seat. I hardened and tempered a few pieces as I was suspicious of that diameter holding size, and sure enough it went out of tolerance on most of the samples. Only solution to that would be to leave a machining allowance on that diameter and hard turn it after heat treatment. Between handling the parts again and the actual turning, that would add another $2 per part. On top of that would be the cost of outside heat treatment plus transportation to and from, none of which was present with the pre treated ETD 150 stock. All things considered, the "savings" amounted to an increased cost of about 25% on a finished part.

Even if it's free, and even if you're only machining as a hobby, the aggravation of dealing with some monkey metal intended for high volume production parts just ain't worthwhile unless continuous frustration is your idea of fun.
 
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Mallen

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I agree many axle shafts are made from those materials. But some are not. But yes, that makes many axle shafts unsuitable ... Well, I guess medium carbon steel has it's uses. But some are made from more usable materials. Admittedly, you'd have to know what that it was one of the ones that was made from those which would make many useless as you just don't know.

I'm totally in agreement that some things are just not worth saving due to their unsuitability. Especially as, as you mentioned, things that don't hold their dimensions well when heat treating.

As an example though of some that are potentially useful, nitro gear claims 4130. Various other companies specify alloys that range from potentially useful to useless. Of course, mostly this was a more or less hypothetical question that I'd hoped for a quick clean answer too so I could stop thinking about it. But it turned into a much longer conversation. But not necessarily a bad thing.

 
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