Utilities easement?

[UserNameAttempt3]

We're in central Kentucky if it makes a difference...

We are having a mobile home put on a 2 acre section that we parceled off due to county regulations with multiple dwellings and square footage limitations. All the land is in our name, and the power company engineer came out weeks ago and looked at where we wanted power ran from the transformer near our main house to the new home. He staked a spot saying it was looked at and that it could be done the way we wanted. Fast forward to last week and the electrician that did the trench didn't do his due diligence and ended up cutting the fiber line from our ISP and almost hitting a water line to a spigot in our garden area. That same day he found out from the power company they wanted a 2nd transformer installed on the separate parcel. This was news to all of us. Well he went and dug the hole for the transformer without telling us, and it's not in an ideal location where it would be too close to the future driveway. We raised a stink and the electrical company sent out an engineer... And THEN brought up a utility easement. Isn't that something that should have been drafted and agreed to before anything started? Are they just trying to CYA at this point now? We went back and forth with the electrician because he showed up today out of the blue not telling us ready to drop the fiberglass base in the hole where we didn't want the transformer. He said the stake from the power company is where the transformer is going and we disagreed saying that was a mark of initial inspection, and that no one knew about the needed transformer.

Am I in the right thinking it should have been better discussed and agreed by us to where it was going and not just where the electrician wanted?

I can't tell who's trying to BS me the most, the power company or the electrician.

 

[mm08822]

I think everyone needs to put the brakes on.

The minute you talk of easements, I think of surveyors locating the current property boundaries, existing structures on it and the existing/new transformers. With that located, an easement can be drawn in that would be used for laying cable and the clearance required creating a no build zone for you.

Obviously, POCO Engineer and you would have to get together and come to an agreement on these points. Then the surveyor finalizes the drawing, stakes out the easement and xformer. This revised survey now gets recorded in your county hall of records. This binds you to not encumbering the easement and the POCO has what they require in writing. If it's not recorded, it didn't happen.

Then I suggest you get a price in writing from your sparky for the change in scope before he resumes.

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

I think everyone needs to put the brakes on.

The minute you talk of easements, I think of surveyors locating the current property boundaries, existing structures on it and the existing/new transformers. With that located, an easement can be drawn in that would be used for laying cable and the clearance required creating a no build zone for you.

Obviously, POCO Engineer and you would have to get together and come to an agreement on these points. Then the surveyor finalizes the drawing, stakes out the easement and xformer. This revised survey now gets recorded in your county hall of records. This binds you to not encumbering the easement and the POCO has what they require in writing. If it's not recorded, it didn't happen.

Then I suggest you get a price in writing from your sparky for the change in scope before he resumes.

So before the the land split, we did have it surveyed for measurement and parceling including current utilities. No second survey had been done since then, not even from the power company. We are putting a stop to anything right now until everyone is on the same page.

Also, the sparkies quote is built into the home dealer price and that's locked in. Any screw ups is on him at this point and the dealer. That paperwork has already been signed.

 

[mm08822]

So before the the land split, we did have it surveyed for measurement and parceling including current utilities. No second survey had been done since then, not even from the power company. We are putting a stop to anything right now until everyone is on the same page.

So the first steps are done and already paid for.

Now you need to get the easement and xformers delineated using the same surveyor. I assume the mentioned survey has already been recorded?

Maybe you and POCO Engineer can stake out (roughly) the proposed necessities and then call the surveyor back to record and formally stake out locations, update survey, re-record at county hall of records.

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

So the first steps are done and already paid for.

Now you need to get the easement and xformers delineated using the same surveyor. I assume the mentioned survey has already been recorded?

Maybe you and POCO Engineer can stake out (roughly) the proposed necessities and then call the surveyor back to record and formally stake out locations, update survey, re-record at county hall of records.

The trench and pipe as already been dug an laid... When they took out our fiber line. The parceling was done back in January of this year and recorded with the county. All these contractors are handled by the project management team from the dealer and they've been hearing enough from me the last few days until I caught the electrician out there today trying to sneak in the transformer platform without us knowing.

 

[dcg9381]

Am I in the right thinking it should have been better discussed and agreed by us to where it was going and not just where the electrician wanted?

If I'm following, they want a "new" easement, no?
Yea, it should have been planned before.

If the POCO "requires" a new transformer for a grid connection, you may have to negotiate as easement.

Hope you didn't pay the contractor that's dropping this stuff in willy-nilly, that's a "not great" situation because he might claim (at least in my state) that he's due a bunch of money for work that hasn't been agreed and can lien....

I'd slow the roll too, come up with a documented plan that everyone is down with. Concerned that about what has been spent or what might be billed here.

 

[Old tool guy]

Apparently you don‘t need a permit for this?

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

Apparently you don‘t need a permit for this?

Got the building permit from the county, got the perc and septic permit from the county, got water permit from county, but ain't seen anything from the power side.

 

[mm08822]

Apparently you don‘t need a permit for this?

Not sure the POCO would need anything to place a xformer. The service lateral and everything thereafter should be under the permit.

 

[mm08822]

The trench and pipe as already been dug an laid... When they took out our fiber line. The parceling was done back in January of this year and recorded with the county. All these contractors are handled by the project management team from the dealer and they've been hearing enough from me the last few days until I caught the electrician out there today trying to sneak in the transformer platform without us knowing.

Dealer?

You may be stuck with the surveyor having to document the as-built installation and the easement(s) based off the installed positions. I would call the POCO Engineer and pick his brain for what is going on.

 

[Codyboy]

Dealer?

You may be stuck with the surveyor having to document the as-built installation and the easement(s) based off the installed positions. I would call the POCO Engineer and pick his brain for what is going on.

I'm certain all places are not the same.
When I granted an easement for power it was all recorded into record by the POCO.
No survey involved.
POCO wrote out the easement and I signed it.
They set stakes 10ft off the PL for the poles.
Easement they require is 20ft wide here. Not all POCOs are the same.

OP need to meet with POCO representative. They will tell you where and how it needs done.

But yes for a transformer they will need an easement for that and the primary cable install.
The service drop should not require an easement or at least none ive ever dealt with.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

wow what a mess

definitely tell sparky to stop and wait til the plans are figured out

 

[signcrafter]

Sounds like nobody is communicating with each other. POCO decides what needs to be done, usually they will run the service to wherever is the shortest because that is the easiest and cheapest for them. If you don't like where the POCO picks to put the transformer you may be able to get them to move it but most likely will be paying extra. The electrician sounds like he is just doing what the POCO wants by putting transformer where they marked. You will have to see what your contract says for the electrical. Did the sales company come out and look at property and call POCO before writing the contract? I'm guessing the contract says something like basic electrical hookup or some sort of language similar. Meaning they will pay to hook it up the shortest, easiest, cheapest way. If you want to put the transformer in a special spot and it makes more work or costs more then there probably an extra fee. Unless they just include a buffer in the original cost in case they run into issues. I wouldn't think they could write up an all inclusive price without knowing all the details of what's needed. Sounds like the electrician is just trying to do what he was hired to do and is stuck in the middle of the POCO marking where they want the service, the company that hired the electrician to do the work, and a home owner that doesn't like where POCO marked for the service. And loosing money when he has to stop and wait for this to be figured out, unless he is able to charge sales company for these extra time wasted. POCO may not have told you about the transformer but they marked where they were putting the service. Sounds like you need to have the POCO come back out for a meeting and ask the sales company to be there also to get everyone back on the same page.

And call the utility marking service to have your utilities marked out, you didn't say but guessing the septic and other utilities still need to be dug. They would have marked your internet line but would not have marked your hose bib line. They will mark the water line coming into your house but anything after that is considered private and your responsibility.

 

[beltfeed]

Being you are in Kentucky next time the utility folks show up start playing some loud banjo music. That should make them run for the hills. On a serious note: I would talk with a commercial surveyor firm. They know the easement laws very well. My brother-in-law works for a large surveyor firm. They have one department that is just for legal disputes, court representations, etc.

 

[Old tool guy]

Not sure the POCO would need anything to place a xformer. The service lateral and everything thereafter should be under the permit.

I was thinking the poco would check for easements and mark it on their drawing. Or if they needed an easement not already existing, they would show that.

 

[Lassen Forge]

We had a Utility easement on our property (actually 3 of them) and the one that mattered worked in our favor, as the Ute (PG&E) had to come by every 3 years and trim our trees next to the local road. I think we got like a $2.25 rebate on our bill annually, but having them come out and do maintenance on our property for us was worth it.

 

[signcrafter]

Being you are in Kentucky next time the utility folks show up start playing some loud banjo music. That should make them run for the hills. On a serious note: I would talk with a commercial surveyor firm. They know the easement laws very well. My brother-in-law works for a large surveyor firm. They have one department that is just for legal disputes, court representations, etc.

I don't think I see any reason to call a surveyor right away. Unless I didn't catch it I don't think there is any dispute or argument about property lines or easements as of now. The issue is there is 4 parties involves and poor planning and communication. The OP has a contract with a mobile home dealership for a mobile home and all the utilities, the mobile home dealership is acting as the general contractor and hiring subs for utilities, Power company came out and spoke with OP(land owner). Things got messy when poco said they were setting a transformer on property and needs an easement but didn't mention that when they talked to OP/owner.

Now nobody is on the same page. The dealership/project manager doesn't seem to be involved with this issue. Since the OP/owner has a contract with the dealership/project manager and the dealership was the one to hire electrician, if I was the electrician and had to stop work I think I would call the dealership that hired him and tell them to call back when they get things figured out between the OP and the poco as to where the lines are going and what's involved. Hopefully the electrician isn't busy and doesn't have to push you to the end of the list now.

 

[aka Larry]

Arounds here things are little different out in the county with larger parcels and such, but in the city, any new easement is recorded with the register of deeds, but not always with an attached drawing. On commercial sites like a shopping center, the new easements are always platted on a recorded drawing so the lines don't get placed in inaccessible areas like under a building, or whatever.

Sometimes we use a more vague legal description on others because the POCO typically puts their stuff where they want. We will show the preferred location of their transformer on our drawing, and they still put it somewhere else. Easements vary in width, but for a typical residential one, the easement is stated as "10' on each side of their line" whether it's buried or above ground on poles. Doing it this way it doesn't matter if the line doesn't end up in exactly the spot we planned for. It's the same for water and sewer mains also, but those are typically with the public right of way, thus no easement is required.

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

Sounds like nobody is communicating with each other. POCO decides what needs to be done, usually they will run the service to wherever is the shortest because that is the easiest and cheapest for them. If you don't like where the POCO picks to put the transformer you may be able to get them to move it but most likely will be paying extra. The electrician sounds like he is just doing what the POCO wants by putting transformer where they marked. You will have to see what your contract says for the electrical. Did the sales company come out and look at property and call POCO before writing the contract? I'm guessing the contract says something like basic electrical hookup or some sort of language similar. Meaning they will pay to hook it up the shortest, easiest, cheapest way. If you want to put the transformer in a special spot and it makes more work or costs more then there probably an extra fee. Unless they just include a buffer in the original cost in case they run into issues. I wouldn't think they could write up an all inclusive price without knowing all the details of what's needed. Sounds like the electrician is just trying to do what he was hired to do and is stuck in the middle of the POCO marking where they want the service, the company that hired the electrician to do the work, and a home owner that doesn't like where POCO marked for the service. And loosing money when he has to stop and wait for this to be figured out, unless he is able to charge sales company for these extra time wasted. POCO may not have told you about the transformer but they marked where they were putting the service. Sounds like you need to have the POCO come back out for a meeting and ask the sales company to be there also to get everyone back on the same page.

And call the utility marking service to have your utilities marked out, you didn't say but guessing the septic and other utilities still need to be dug. They would have marked your internet line but would not have marked your hose bib line. They will mark the water line coming into your house but anything after that is considered private and your responsibility.

So there's a lot to unpack. The original "engineer" that came out and walked the proposed route with me and agreed to it, and there was no discussion of an xformer at the time. The first time anyone knew about it is when the sparky showed up to start trenching. The biggest issue was he just decided where to put it without plans or consulting, especially in relation to where the driveway is going because of land slope.

Here is a very poor drawing on a very outdated satellite image. Yellow square and line are where the existing xfer is and where the agreed path would be. It's a wide clear path that's maintained and mowed because we like walking it and brings the deer straight through the property. Blue square is where our green house and garden building is going. Red X is where the xformer was dug and the orange x is where we'd like it. It's shorter and would be more out of the way of the driveway that's getting installed. Black square is where the house is. The meter is at the corner of the house closest to the xformer. You can make out the divots in the field north of the pond where the main house utilities come in, except for the fiber line.


The POCO guy who's now "overseeing" this is supposed to come out tomorrow to discuss this, maybe 45ft push back. I don't see it as an issue with POCO, just with the sparky because he started digging before asking. Sparky had to pull the power permit but was still unaware of the xformer until last Monday when they started trenching. We were told hookup to power was included up to 500ft... And from the xformer to the house/meter is less than 50ft.

The biggest issue I have is that we live in the main house and work from home, and the dealer and sparky keep saying they usually deal with vacant land... My guess is so that they can do what ever and just be like "well it's done already" and screw the buyer in some way. We caught him showing up to throw in the base and leave without saying a word and he's pissy because he screwed up and has to adjust.

It'll be a few days before this is hammered out and I'll update then.

 

[Old tool guy]

Here is a very poor drawing on a very outdated satellite image. .
You can make out the divots in the field north of the pond where the main hous

It’s actually a good drawing.
I don’t see a pond.

 

[mm08822]

I don't see what you are asking as a problem for the POCO. Their u/g feed shortens. The service entrance conductors get longer, but that's on you and your ok with it.

 

[PCustoms]

It’s actually a good drawing.
I don’t see a pond.

 

[PCustoms]

@UserNameAttempt3 is there an existing easement for the existing xformer?

Where is the current underground feed from? Edit: I see the divots now.

How far from old to new xformer?

 

[signcrafter]

So there's a lot to unpack. The original "engineer" that came out and walked the proposed route with me and agreed to it, and there was no discussion of an xformer at the time. The first time anyone knew about it is when the sparky showed up to start trenching. The biggest issue was he just decided where to put it without plans or consulting, especially in relation to where the driveway is going because of land slope.

Here is a very poor drawing on a very outdated satellite image. Yellow square and line are where the existing xfer is and where the agreed path would be. It's a wide clear path that's maintained and mowed because we like walking it and brings the deer straight through the property. Blue square is where our green house and garden building is going. Red X is where the xformer was dug and the orange x is where we'd like it. It's shorter and would be more out of the way of the driveway that's getting installed. Black square is where the house is. The meter is at the corner of the house closest to the xformer. You can make out the divots in the field north of the pond where the main house utilities come in, except for the fiber line.


The POCO guy who's now "overseeing" this is supposed to come out tomorrow to discuss this, maybe 45ft push back. I don't see it as an issue with POCO, just with the sparky because he started digging before asking. Sparky had to pull the power permit but was still unaware of the xformer until last Monday when they started trenching. We were told hookup to power was included up to 500ft... And from the xformer to the house/meter is less than 50ft.

The biggest issue I have is that we live in the main house and work from home, and the dealer and sparky keep saying they usually deal with vacant land... My guess is so that they can do what ever and just be like "well it's done already" and screw the buyer in some way. We caught him showing up to throw in the base and leave without saying a word and he's pissy because he screwed up and has to adjust.

It'll be a few days before this is hammered out and I'll update then.

The biggest issue is there is no one in charge coordinating site layout. Whoever is supposed to be doing that should have had everything marked out. Weather that would be you or the dealer if you paid him to oversee everything and if he is in charge of installing the utilities and hiring the subs. I don't remember if you said the driveway was included with the package or if you are going to take care of that. But either way I would spray paint the grass to outline the driveway. Then put different colored flags in for locating all the utilities.

I wouldn't say the electrician screwed up. I don't know all the details of your contract. Who's task it was to call poco to go over things, yours, dealers, or electricians? Would have been ideal for everyone to meet poco there so everyone is on the same page. But then poco changed things up anyway. The dealer hired sparky so he answers to the dealer. Yes he can work with you to a point to try and get things how you want them. But no clue what kind of agreement the dealer and sparker have. Maybe the dealer told him to put it there, or maybe he just put it there because that's were the stake was from the first poco visit and nobody marked where the transformer is now going so he could install it. Every time he has to come out and then pack up and go home is wasting his time. These are all the fun challenges of planning and running a construction site. But there needs to be someone who does all the planning and coordinating and then checks to make sure it's going smooth. Doesn't sound like there is much of that going on for your project. From what I gathered your dealer is supposed to be doing this and isn't. A simple meeting between the two of you and in an hour or two could have laid out the whole site to avoid issues like this. And not sure who found out about the transformer change but communication also goes a long ways projects like these. Sounds like that is missing also.

 

[UserNameAttempt3]

@UserNameAttempt3 is there an existing easement for the existing xformer?

Where is the current underground feed from? Edit: I see the divots now.

How far from old to new xformer?

Yes there is an easement for the existing and it was on our plans when we parceled the 2 acres where the new home is going. Old to the new one is less than 270ft

 

[PCustoms]

Old to the new one is less than 270ft

Any reason you can't just come off the existing transformer? If you run,,/own the cables it should avoid an easement for the "high voltage" utility lines