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Utilities in the trench questions

urgti

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Oct 28, 2008
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wayzata minnesota
I have a 48" deep trench and have my pex in the bottom to run water out for my heat and domestic use. While at the store the other day the clerk says it will freeze even at that depth. Should I insulate it and what would be the best way to accomplish this? My location is just west of Minneapolis MN.

Second is my gas line. I can never find anybody at the local Menards or HD that knows much about what size and type to use. I will be running a sub 200K BTU heat source which will be about 50' away from the junction in the house. I have seen standard copper rolls and also the yellow rolls which looks much more flexible. Will either work fine for my situation?

Here is a photo of what I am working on.

0112.jpg
 
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Cryptic1911

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May 24, 2008
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Willimantic, CT
it might freeze out there.. you guys get wicked winters, right? here in CT, the frost line is like 3ft.. might want to check around up there to make sure
 

DIC

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Aug 2, 2009
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Sorry I can't help on your questions .....But I think your supposed to use the yellow stuff underground and your not supposed to be run under concrete or slabs.....I like your building ..Looks nice.........:thumbup:
 

nate379

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Palmer, AK
I would ask local guys or find out the frost depth. Really depends on winter temps and soil type.

Here it would freeze for sure. Have to go down at least 10 ft, 12 is better.

If you don't want to dig deeper, wrap the water lines in insulation (the pool noodle kind) and then put a couple layers of 2" blue board over it. I was told by the guys that redug my water line that 1ft dirt = 1" blue board. (wasn't dug deep enough in one part and it froze)

Gas line, get with gas company on that. Here we use black plastic line.
 
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OP
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urgti

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Oct 28, 2008
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wayzata minnesota
I was thinking of putting the black pipe foam on, maybe two layers then a strip of the rigid foam over that.

Thanks for the compliment, I am going for a barn/carriage house look in the end.
 

nate379

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Palmer, AK
Yup that is what we did. Where it went under the house it was only about 2-3 feet deep and we couldn't dig much without portentional for house falling in trench!

Used small "pool noodle", then larger over that and then 3-4 layers of 2" blue board about 16"-2ft wide

No problems with it this winter. Water is ICE cold year round so it doesn't take much either. Right now it's 72* out and my cold water out of the tap is 40*.
 
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slip knot

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Mar 22, 2010
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Texas gulf coast
Our local gas companies have started using a Pex type product. I don't know if they are using it on the service drops. The yellow Wardflex is good stuff but $$. We used copper line on my last rental underground but went to wardflex as soon as it went in the house.

Your best bet would be to contact a local plumber to determine what is best or meets code for your area.
 

trbomax

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Mar 21, 2010
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Location
starvation lake,mi.
Your further north than me,and here uninsulated 48" will work SOMETIMES.If it wont be plowed over,go for it but onsulate it. As others have said, the tube foam around the pipe and then blue board. I put 2" blue board 12-18" on each side of the line,then 4" on top.The frost will creep around the sides if its not protected.If its going to be plowed and driven over, it has to be 7 ' with the foam treatment. I think the yellow plastic over the copper is for identification and abraision resistance. None of my propane tanks have it,I have 4 on the property that were set by the gas distributers. I did use it inside the buildings though,for ID purposes.If you are putting gas lines in a wall, there cannot be any junctions in the wall,attic is OK,at least in Mi.

edit) for propane,you will need a 5/8" line for 200k,natural gas runs at a lower pressure, so I would think 3/4". Why a 200k unit in that size shop?
 
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arvidj

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Mar 26, 2006
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Minnesota
As a side note, I ... along with a few other ... are really getting fed up with the short session expiration times on this site. I wrote this once already but had timed out by the time I finished and had to type it all over again. Yes, I know I wear perform proper protection before trying to become intimate with this site but the 5 to 10 minute timeout is ridiculous. MODERATOR\SITE OWNER please take note :mad:

Back on point ...

I live in Prior Lake Minnesota so the environmental conditions are similar.

A few years ago on a very cold January morning I was forced to turn the water off using the curb stop. This is the valve that is buried in the ground and is between the water main and the house. I made a homemade curb stop wrench that was over 6 feet long and only about a foot of it was sticking out of the ground when I got to the valve. I was surprised to find slush at the bottom of the hole. Not water and not ice, but slush. This suggested it was much colder at 60" than I thought it would be.

If you Google "Minnesota frost line" you get stuff like this 1303.1600 FOOTING DEPTH FOR FROST PROTECTION which indicates 42" in the south half of the state and 60" in the northern half of the state. Your 48" trench would seem to be "just barely adequate" in my opinion, but then again I usually over engineer as it is cheaper to go down another foot now that is is to dig it up or thaw it out later.

I also do not think insulation will totally mitigate the risks unless there is a reasonably regular flow of water thru the system. Insulation will not make things warmer, it will only slow the transfer of heat from the warm to the cold. In this case the warm will come from the water flowing thru the system. If no water flows thru the system for an extended period of time I would thing the system would eventually reach equilibrium at a temperature that matches the ground temperature ... which might be cold enough to freeze the water. Obviously the time coefficient to reach said equilibrium could be longer than the water usage pattern and it would never freeze up ... similar to when people use to leave a faucet running at a very low setting to keep the pipes in the house from freezing up ... but still it is something that I would think about.

Got the gas line, here was my experience. My main gas line comes from the outside meter to a regulator near the furnace. The regulator reduces the pressure from the "high pressure" of ... I am told ... about 2.5 psi to only a few inch psi. This then flow to a manifold that feed the stove, the furnace, the water heater and the dryer. The stove is 3/4". the dryer is 1/2" and the furnace and the water heater are 3/8" copper. The stove is a 35 foot run, the dryer is a 20 foot run and the furnace and water heater are less than 10 feet.

When I added the 75,000 BTU heater in the garage, a 60 foot run but all inside, I used 3/4" copper that started on the "high pressure" side of the main, before the "manifold regulator". I then installed another regulator just before the heater in the garage. If I recall correctly I had some trouble finding a local source for the regulator as I was not "certified" to do any work on the "high pressure" side of the line. I eventually worked it all out ... and old age may have clouded the memory ... and your experience may be different ... but that is how I recall it happening.

Arvid
 

rockchucker

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Seattle WA
As a side note, I ... along with a few other ... are really getting fed up with the short session expiration times on this site. I wrote this once already but had timed out by the time I finished and had to type it all over again. Yes, I know I wear perform proper protection before trying to become intimate with this site but the 5 to 10 minute timeout is ridiculous. MODERATOR\SITE OWNER please take note :mad:


Arvid

Before hitting the post button on any Forum when the post has had time and effort into it just highlight the post then copy it to your clipboard. I know hind sight is 20/20 but I am only suggesting from experience. It has happened too many times to me.
 

walrus

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Nov 12, 2008
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Location
Maine
2" of foam acts like 2 feet of dirt, foam will help for sure but if its a plowed or cleared area all bets are off. Use 2 foot wide foam so a foot on either side of the pipe
 

mad57

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Jan 30, 2009
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If you have city water ask the township guys what depth your main going into your house is!! that has never froze on you has it same idea.
 

Gary S

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Dec 27, 2008
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Bismarck, ND
You should be significantly warmer than we are here. We need 6' depth for water pipes to stay unfrozen.
 
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