Valley ice build up

[mygarageone]

Because of the high snow amounts I get on my roof every winter I get a lot of ice build up in my valleys.
I have seen several new products to deal with the ice problem , they are all heated type units that set on the valley and melt the ic away.

My question does anyone have any experience with these things and if so do they work as advertised ?

 

[dfiler2]

I have used them, they work very well, however, a huge PITA. Have you tried tossing some of those salt pucks that are made for that up there?

 

[CNGsaves]

Do you have shingled valleys . . . . or is it valley tin ???

 

[mygarageone]

Do you have shingled valleys . . . . or is it valley tin ???

Metal roof.

 

[mygarageone]

I have used them, they work very well, however, a huge PITA. Have you tried tossing some of those salt pucks that are made for that up there?

Tryed the hocky pucks they don't work that well. Understand were are not talking inches of snow , we're talking feet , several ft. It snows where I live daily and it's impossible to keep up with it.

Now why are the heater units. Pita ?
From what I have read , they are secured with butyl caulk and you plug them in .

 

[PAToyota]

I wouldn’t be throwing salt up on a metal roof.

A properly done metal roof shouldn’t have any issues with ice accumulating in the valleys. I’d just leave it alone.

 

[Bondo]

Tryed the hocky pucks they don't work that well. Understand were are not talking inches of snow , we're talking feet , several ft. It snows where I live daily and it's impossible to keep up with it.

Now why are the heater units. Pita ?
From what I have read , they are secured with butyl caulk and you plug them in .

Ayuh,... In yer 1st post, yer talkin' 'bout Ice in the valleys,,....

The heat tape strips can help keep the water flowin', through the ice dams,...

Only steeper pitch will remove a massive snow load,.....
or shovelin' it off,...

 

[rburke65]

Does not the ice dams indicate a heat loss from your attic area......the snow is melting for a reason......no? The entire roof isn't melting.

 

[mygarageone]

I already have a 6/12 pitch and that's plenty for snow to slide off , except these last 2 wi ters it's been so cold the snow won't let loose , even on steeper roofs that's a problem up here.
Everyone has problems with there valleys up here , it's one of those places we are told not to build a house with valleys due to this very reason. I have had to shovel my roof 3 times this winter already , prior to this yr and last , I have never had to shovel it , because the weather would warm up enough to facilated releasing it..
Prior to these last 2 yrs ice build up was not an issue either and yes it matters if it builds up , it starts going under the steel roofing and through the ceiling .
Based on the answers I am getting no one has any ideas about those heating units I mentioned.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This year I installed heated wire at the bottom of a valley where I get my worst ice build up. t worked very well, and I have only powered it up 3 times, each for about 24 hours.
This year we have had a lot less snow than last year but I would expect it would have done the job in the problem area then also.

Them give you small soft metal "tabs" to attach it to a shingled roof. I have no ide how you would connect it to a metal roof.

I already have a 6/12 pitch and that's plenty for snow to slide off.

If I lived where you live, I would want 9/12 or even 12/12.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Does not the ice dams indicate a heat loss from your attic area......the snow is melting for a reason......no? The entire roof isn't melting.

To a certain extent, your statement is correct. When you get multiple feet of snow, you have to hope that there is enough pitch that it will slide. Or use a roof rake.

 

[PAToyota]

What sort of metal roof? Corrugated? Standing seam? Other?

Typically, as has been mentioned, formation of ice dams is the symptom of other issues. Heat loss from the building melts the snow from underneath and then the meltwater refreezes and causes the dam.

Heat tape (and similar) is more of a bandaid solution than a fix. You can run into a few different types of issues with such systems. The ice can pull against the wires, damaging them and leading to shorts (conceivably fires) or pull them off the roof when the snow and ice does let go. There is also the question of how to activate them. Again, if you activate them after the ice has formed, they could be damaged when things let go. So you want to have them on before the ice forms. But you don’t necessarily want them on all the time - if only due to the expense of electricity.

 

[finn]

Mygarageone, I share your frustration. We have a property next door (we're ~150 miles north west of you) with an 8/12 pitch emerald green metal roof that has a similar problem. Last year we didn't heat the vacant house, but still got so much snow and subsequent ice build up that the ice actually tore the metal roof at the rib just about the eave. Both valleys had similar tears. Poor insulation is obviously not the issue, as the house wasn't even heated, as it was in que for refurbishing.

All I can figure is that the dark roof gets warm enough towards spring when the sun finally emerges occasionally such that ice dams form. The several feet of snow/ice rip the rib.

Roof rakes are probably the best option, other than avoiding valleys completely.

Shoveling isn't viable because the pitch is too great.

 

[volleyball]

Maybe you need to spray PAM on the roof in the fall. I am thinking that if they were polished and then "waxed" you might not have to rake anymore.
What is your purlin spacing? Mine is 18" Maybe the snow is warping the metal helping it hold. I don't have your snow load but I am running a 5/12 and the snow avalanches when the sun hits it.

 

[mygarageone]

This year I installed heated wire at the bottom of a valley where I get my worst ice build up. t worked very well, and I have only powered it up 3 times, each for about 24 hours.
This year we have had a lot less snow than last year but I would expect it would have done the job in the problem area then also.

Them give you small soft metal "tabs" to attach it to a shingled roof. I have no ide how you would connect it to a metal roof.


If I lived where you live, I would want 9/12 or even 12/12.

I have seen several 8/12 roofs and some 12/12 with snow not sliding off .
What's happening is the steel is getting so cold from our low temps , the snow is actual bonding with the steel. But as soon as we get some extended warm weather ( above 32 degrees ). Then it comes off . But again this yr we are experiencing temps in the teens and have for 2 months now. But warmer weather is on the way according to the weather reports , we.'ll see ?

 

[mygarageone]

Maybe you need to spray PAM on the roof in the fall. I am thinking that if they were polished and then "waxed" you might not have to rake anymore.
What is your purlin spacing? Mine is 18" Maybe the snow is warping the metal helping it hold. I don't have your snow load but I am running a 5/12 and the snow avalanches when the sun hits it.

No Perlins , steel is on top of osb with 2 ft spacing on trusses.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Buy this!....ha!ha!

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281872

 

[mygarageone]

In my first post , I did mention I have found what I believe the solution is . I just wanted to know if anyone had any knowledge or experience with valley htrs.
There are 3 differant companies out there I just have to do some more research.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have seen several 8/12 roofs and some 12/12 with snow not sliding off .

Snow sticking to 12/12 ? Amazing !!

But as soon as we get some extended warm weather ( above 32 degrees ). Then it comes off . But again this yr we are experiencing temps in the teens and have for 2 months now.

I don't think we have been above 30F in SE MI in 2 or 3 weeks. Average highs for the end of Feb should be in the mid 30s. We have been getting below 0F at night.

Heat wave next week ! We might break freezing !!

 

[mygarageone]

Maybe you need to spray PAM on the roof in the fall. I am thinking that if they were polished and then "waxed" you might not have to rake anymore.

What is your purlin spacing? Mine is 18" Maybe the snow is warping the metal helping it hold. I don't have your snow load but I am running a 5/12 and the snow avalanches when the sun hits it.

I think the Pam thing is a great idea but for how long it wouldn't last .
But the first application sure would work.

 

[Pen & Wrench]

Heated or not, I have found that when the attic area is warmer than the outside area, ice build up is a problem. This can even happen on an unheated building. The sun can increase the temp inside the attic cavity if the home or building is being heated or not. Insulation is important, but just as important is to have enough ventilation so that the attic temp stays the same as the outside temp. I'm not saying this will completely solve the problem, but where I live, Huron, SD, it makes all the difference in the world for ice damming. I eliminated ice damming on our home by adding attic, but didn't get enough improvement until I added additional attic ventilation, and wa-la, it worked for me.

 

[mygarageone]

Snow sticking to 12/12 ? Amazing !!


I don't think we have been above 30F in SE MI in 2 or 3 weeks. Average highs for the end of Feb should be in the mid 30s. We have been getting below 0F at night.

Heat wave next week ! We might break freezing !!

Yea , our these last 2 winters have been a ***** .

 

[mygarageone]

Heated or not, I have found that when the attic area is warmer than the outside area, ice build up is a problem. This can even happen on an unheated building. The sun can increase the temp inside the attic cavity if the home or building is being heated or not. Insulation is important, but just as important is to have enough ventilation so that the attic temp stays the same as the outside temp. I'm not saying this will completely solve the problem, but where I live, Huron, SD, it makes all the difference in the world for ice damming. I eliminated ice damming on our home by adding attic, but didn't get enough improvement until I added additional attic ventilation, and wa-la, it worked for me.

Well here's what happens on a steel roof . We had warmer weather and the roof allowed the snow to slide off , the roof is still wet from the warm snow and weather , then we get a deep freeze . The water on the roof freezes and then it snows again. Snow sticks to the thin ice that's built up from the freeze and the end result , snow loads and sticking snow .
I have a older log cabin and it can not be insulated at the valleys like it needs to be.

 

[volleyball]

Maybe the lack of purlins is your biggest issue. The purlins are there as a structure to attach the steel but it also acts as a space to allow air flow.
I have the snow coming off of my 5/12 with purlins but neither of my 2/12 roofs are shedding much. They have no purlins. So it must be the purlins!!! J/K.

 

[mygarageone]

Maybe the lack of purlins is your biggest issue. The purlins are there as a structure to attach the steel but it also acts as a space to allow air flow.
I have the snow coming off of my 5/12 with purlins but neither of my 2/12 roofs are shedding much. They have no purlins. So it must be the purlins!!! J/K.

You and I have had this discussion last year.
This is the situation here where I live. Last year we had 80 some straight days of below zero weather , it created a bonding between the snow and the steel .
This is very unusual for this to happen on a steel roof. I am not the only home owner dealing with this issue .
Brand new well constructed properly built homes are having this issue , even the long time builders tell me it's something they have never seen.
So this is the results of global warming , temps below 0 for extended periods of time never experienced up here.
Lake Superior has frozen over completely for the last 2 winters also unheard of.
So our problem seems to be the bitter extended cold weather .

I understand what your saying but that isn't our basic issue . But the ice daming is partial a insulation problem and in order to fix it , 1000's of dollars of roof work. Which I'm not ready to do at this point.

 

[dfiler2]

Tryed the hocky pucks they don't work that well. Understand were are not talking inches of snow , we're talking feet , several ft. It snows where I live daily and it's impossible to keep up with it.

Now why are the heater units. Pita ?
From what I have read , they are secured with butyl caulk and you plug them in .

What I didn't like about them was the maintenance, keeping them attached to the roof over summer, or putting them back up every year. Like you I didn't need them every year but it was so much easier to make sure they were working every fall rather than fighting with it after there was a problem. Once they are installed it is easy, you do just plug them in when needed.

 

[Kaizen]

I have heat cables on one roof I have about a 6/12 but asphalt. they don't melt away all the ice but just melt ice around the wire that creates a channel for the water behind the dam to get out. I put this up about ten years ago and left them up there -really needed it this winter. while my neighbors were taking their lives in their hands up on icy roofs with axes and hammers I just plugged in the cord.
While they work really well on shingle roofs I think the same thing will get ripped off on a metal roof when the snow load lets go or if really secured will hold ice up there that wants to slide off.

 

[mygarageone]

I have heat cables on one roof I have about a 6/12 but asphalt. they don't melt away all the ice but just melt ice around the wire that creates a channel for the water behind the dam to get out. I put this up about ten years ago and really needed it this winter. while my neighbors were taking their lives in their hands up on icy roofs with axes and hammers I just plugged in the cord.
While they work really well on shingle roofs I think the same thing will get ripped off on a metal roof when the snow load lets go or if really secured will hold ice up there that wants to slide off.

Well I am taking about the valleys only , the roof it's self is not an issue.
But I am not talking about cable either but a special PC of metal that attaches to the valley the first 4 ft and it keeps the ice from building up and from what I have seen and read , it stay I place yr around , they can paint them the same color as my roof so they blend in.

 

[Kaizen]

Well I am taking about the valleys only , the roof it's self is not an issue.
But I am not talking about cable either but a special PC of metal that attaches to the valley the first 4 ft and it keeps the ice from building up and from what I have seen and read , it stay I place yr around , they can paint them the same color as my roof so they blend in.

Sorry couldn't see what you are talking about in your post. imo anything you can do in the summer that might help and keep you safe is worth trying

 

[Denwood]

We had similar issues, including frost in the attic. We're on the north side of Lake Superior and have set new cold records for the last two years. Climate change combined with lower density air is allowing arctic air mass flow southward. There was a movie about this oddly a few years back...

Had to vacuum out the attic, spray foam seal from above, add r60 cellulose and add a few vents. No ice dams this yr...and this month Average about -20C.

 

[theoldwizard1]

But I am not talking about cable either but a special piece of metal that attaches to the valley the first 4 ft and it keeps the ice from building up ...

How about a link to this magic material ?

 

[mygarageone]

How about a link to this magic material ?

I got kicked off the site for 5 days , I apparently said something polical they didn't like

Anyhow , it's a piece of aluminum channel that has heat cables running in it .
It attaches to the valley at the edge and goes up 5 to what ever ft you want ,
It keeps the ice build up non existent. Allows the water to run down .