Value tools

[leod]

I'm new here and there are a lot of discussions dismissing craftsman as cheap but then again there are a lot of postings about HF and other value tools being posted as good or better.

I have different brands of tools but i cant understand why people accept other value tools but swear on craftsman? is it really that bad price vs quality?

 

[kams1973]

No they are a quality tool. People are pissed that they aren't exclusively made in the USA.

 

[treasureseeker]

I don’t Craftsman is consistent across their line of tools for bad or good and with different suppliers for different items and that the suppliers change over the years experience will vary.

 

[therealwormey]

yea,sumthin like that

 

[diesel research]

Since this seems to be a HF vs CM war, I think the arguments against go something like this:

a good bit more expensive
Sometimes of lesser quality (breaker bars/toolboxes for example)
CM is racing to the bottom, HF was already at the bottom and can only go up or sustain
Expectations. You expect CM to perform, so failures are disapointments. HF failures are expected.
Customer service.

 

[blue dog]

You are correct in what you read, it is odd at times around here when it comes to this topic, but i will add that in 25 years of using cman tools, i have cracked 4 sockets, my fault, i was using them on impacts, and had 2 ratchets foul,and broke the tip off of 1 screwdriver. No big deal, took them back to sears and got them replaced, free of charge.
Is a cman 100 piece a good value? yes
are the sockets and ratchets made in the USA? yes
Am i happy with my cman stuff? yes
do the screwdrivers stink ? do a search and you will see that is discussed around here just as much as the debate you are inquiring about.

 

[zer0cell]

The thing is, some tool brands have a lot more consistency with their tool lineup in terms of quality. Surely even with the top brands there are some 'bad apples' from time to time that slip past QC and some models may be better than others. Likewise, with certain brands quality is reasonably consistent as in you pretty much know what to expect. Alternately, with a brand like craftsman, since their tools really come from so many different manufacturers and various countries, there are some tools that are simply poorly designed and downright awful quality. On the other hand, some of their tools are really a good value and worthy of a serious professional's tool box. As a whole however, the consensus seems to be that the overall quality of the brand has gone downhill over the years and craftsman simply does not have the reputation for quality American tools as it did in the old days.

That's not to say they don't have any good products, I have a few craftsman tools which I feel are very nice for the price, which I have had absolutely no problems with. For example;

Their black handled wood chisels (6 Piece set for $29.99 made by Western Forge)
http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...an+wood+chisel&prdNo=9&blockNo=9&blockType=L9


a coping saw (made in the USA with wood handle for $7.99)
http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...ord=coping+saw&prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=L2

Or a bunch of their wood handled craftsman hammers (made by vaughan)

Their c-man pro screwdrivers are also pretty good for the price when you buy the set of them on sale although I personally don't care for the handles much.

This is just naming a few of their products which I have personal experience with which I feel are good tools and I'm sure other users on here can recommend many others...

The sad truth is though, from what I gather by reading this forum, Harbor Freight has become a serious competitor to craftsman, especially regarding automotive tools. Their prices are often less expensive and you may be getting more bang for your buck. With much of the craftsman line now being made overseas, there really is not as much as an incentive to purchase a lot of their products over other "lesser" brands as there used to be.

Finally, I think the main reason you may see so much bashing on craftsman, which I have done myself as well, is because of their fall from grace so to speak. This, in my opinion is not just related to the quality of their products but also corporate strategies, and I use that term loosely. Harbor Freight on the other hand used to be seen as pretty much a perfect example of why one should not buy 'cheap' Chinese tools and stick to buying American. However, no matter how much anyone hates harbor freight and what they stand for, few people I think can argue that their tools are better than they used to be and are still cheap as hell... can you say the same thing about craftsman?

 

[bmxr4life87]

A lot of it has to do with craftsman quality being a little lower and HF quality being a lot higher than even 5 years ago... For the price of an 18" breaker bar at sears I can get a full impact socket set and a 24" breaker bar from HF! Some will cry over COO but the HF bar will do the job just as well but with a lot more leverage. Sears wants $40 for a 1/4 flex raised panel ratchet but a 15" 1/2 flex raised panel ratchet is only $32? WTF? Some of sears pricing really makes me scratch my head? A 3/8 10" extension is $11 but a 3/8 14" extension is only $9? Plus in my area HF has a better selection than sears

 

[hofferwood]

leod FIRST---- Welcome to the board
There is a TON of good info here.
And there are alot of "tool bashers" also, guys that say "I wouldn't use that fer all the xxxx in the world" but you will find one hidden in their box
Take in All the advice, then you be the judge.
Remember everyones "opinion" is just that, Their own pick.
Me, I go for what will work the best fer the money, try to stay USA but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
My biggest prob. is partial "sets", Proto sockets missing 2 or 3, i'm huntin, Cman combos missing 1 r 2 huntin, so on and so on.
Keep an open mind, listen, evaluate, then ask another Q.
Chuck

 

[zer0cell]

Look, there's no doubt tools are more expensive to produce in the USA vs in China. I think most people understand this, and personally I'm okay with paying a little extra for a quality product made here in the USA over a comparable one made in china.

So in other words, I'll pay more money for better quality... and sometimes even more money for equal quality if I like the company/product/COO... but I won't pay more money for an inferior product.

I mean I'm not a sucker after all... the problem with sears is that the quality on many products is going down, while the quality of their competitors increases. High quality products made in the USA can justify higher prices... However, who wants to pay a premium for ****? no matter where it's made...

 

[dirtrider]

Craftsman has been a staple in the tool industry for many years as a good solid tool at a reasonable price. Kind of like the golden standard for DO it your selfer's and non pro's. But as of recently many of their "hard line' tools have gone to being Made in China as well as Craftsman has released in my opinion a few really poor quality products "for example there ratchets". But make no mistake about it Harbor freight is generally the most widely available cheapest/poorest quality tool you can buy out there. I think in reference to your question, more people are debating over whether Craftsman with a good amount of there stuff still Made in USA is of better quality then say Gearwrench which is Made in Taiwan or some other import tool which is as good of quality as Craftsman or better and at a better price point.

 

[american lockpicker]

No they are a quality tool. People are pissed that they aren't exclusively made in the USA.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[woody 73]

It is hard for men of my generation to walk into sears and see many of the tools coming from china; because we remember tools being built with pride in the states,by american workers.

Don't get me wrong I have seen some fantastic tools coming out of Asia,and I own several examples.

The lines start to get fuzzy when Money becomes an issue,for example Mac tools that used to be made in the states are now being made over in Asia,but because it has the name mac the price is still very high. With that being said people can buy these same products(without the Mac name), for less money but they will sacrifice the warranty issues if they need a replacement asap. (although I live near Mac I never see their tool trucks).

The other issue at least with me is this; Some companies (like Mac) at one point hid the truth about coo,I never did like that (and that goes for other tool companies also).

With craftsman sometimes you will have great years with well made tools and sometimes to cut costs (again think money),you will have bad years with not so great tools.

HF is coming a long way I remember wrenches from India that would fall apart if you looked at them,today they have come a long way and they are making some very nice tools.

Hope this gives you some insight!

 

[leod]

A lot of good points. sorry, i just used HF as an example but other store brands are in the same discussion (Husky/Kobalt/Duralast/Napa). obviously they are in a price war and majority seem decide based on price and they are not in a good position vs China or Taiwan.

I am just looking at their hand tools and comparing their sockets with GearWrench. GW looks better but also priced higher. I have not tried HF yet to compare since there's no store near me.

i think the sockets, extensions and thin profile ratchets are decent for the price (i own these btw).

 

[mrholeshot]

The Craftsman of today is much differant than the Craftsman of 10 years ago. Now much is made in China, The quality of the cheaper raised panel ratchets are of poor quality, the reg screwdriver line is even worse quality, replacing a USA made tool under warranty will yeid you a China made crude import. The Chrome on sockets have become terrible. For ********* Craftsman tool lovers this move has them up in arms and really pissed off. As far as toolboxes go the better line (non homeowner) models are pretty consistant to what they have been for years but since harbor freight released it's 41 inch box about 7 years ago for much less than Craftsman in a stronger unit it just makes the craftsman appear to be a lesser value.

Still with all that going on shopping Craftsman tools can still yeild the best money spent. Solid values like raised panel wrenches, Pro screwdrivers and tool sets of many sizes are still good money spent. As far as Craftsman China tools goes the Jury is still out on them. I've seen enough incredible stuff come from Asia i won't make the call on the quality until I try one.

 

[Davefr]

Craftsman used to be very good quality at a decent price. Now Craftsman quality is going downhill yet the price is staying about the same and that's translating into poor value. Craftsman is also totally inconsistent. The premium ratchets are apparently nearly tool truck quality yet the sockets and wrenches are not.

Meanwhile HF started as pure junk quality but the trend has been higher quality over time. We're now seeing a cross over point between Craftsman and HF.

As always, shop each tool for best quality and value and this includes used. Anyone who tries to maintain one brand for all their tools will end up with poor value and some bad quality.

Tools from different brands get along with each other just fine in the toolbox

 

[tpolley]

forgive my ignorance, but aren't craftsmans main tools still made in america? last time i was in the store all their wrenches, ratchets, sockets, pliers were made in usa. it was only the gimmicky **** thats made in china. like that dog s**t wrench or the spline wrenches. their power tools are made in china, but i bet if you turned that snap-on drill over it would say "made in china or mexico". and lowes kobalt is made in america last i checked, probably in the same factory as craftsman.

 

[route246]

I think Kobalt and CM are both made in part by Danaher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaher_Corporation

forgive my ignorance, but aren't craftsmans main tools still made in america? last time i was in the store all their wrenches, ratchets, sockets, pliers were made in usa. it was only the gimmicky **** thats made in china. like that dog s**t wrench or the spline wrenches. their power tools are made in china, but i bet if you turned that snap-on drill over it would say "made in china or mexico". and lowes kobalt is made in america last i checked, probably in the same factory as craftsman.

 

[therealwormey]

also, guys that say "I wouldn't use that fer all the xxxx in the world" but you will find one hidden in their box

that stands to reason,they used a piece of ****,didnt like it so now its hidden in a box,they keep it as a reminder not to buy ****

 

[lowbucktruck]

A lot of good points. sorry, i just used HF as an example but other store brands are in the same discussion (Husky/Kobalt/Duralast/Napa). obviously they are in a price war and majority seem decide based on price and they are not in a good position vs China or Taiwan.

I am just looking at their hand tools and comparing their sockets with GearWrench. GW looks better but also priced higher. I have not tried HF yet to compare since there's no store near me.

i think the sockets, extensions and thin profile ratchets are decent for the price (i own these btw).

Since your focus of your post is value tools, let me throw another brand in there for consideration: Stanley. Definitely a good tool value for DIY folks. Stanley Powerlock tape measures could probably be considered a contractors tool belt standard. (I love 'em, have several) Decent quality, affordable tools and can be found at your local Walmart store.
Same boat as Sears Craftsman, used to be made in USA and now mainly manufactured overseas (with some product exceptions, now don't shoot flames at me for saying it).

I've been a fan of Sears Craftsman for years (particularly their older, vintage stuff) but the quality vs. price point isn't what it used to be on some of their tool lineup. This is a popular (and heated) topic of discussion on this forum, no doubt. Many different opinions on quality of current Craftsman tools.

I shop alot at Lowes... so I do own some Kobalt tools. I like them! Good quality and good value. I think that I like the Kobalt clear-handled screwdrivers better than the brand-new, comparable Craftsman screwdrivers. The older Craftsman screwdrivers from 10+ years ago were much more solid, in my humble opinion.

For you 4x4 guys out there... interested discussion about Kobalt tools vs. Craftsman tools on Yotatech forum:
http://www.yotatech.com/f106/kobalt-vs-craftsman-tools-73587/

 

[plinker]

Craftsman is a great value if you;

Pick and choose which tools you like that they have, some are better then others.

Have Sears stores around. (no local HF stores for me)

Not picky about tool COO (a certain amount is made overseas)

I have quite a few Craftsman tools and I like what I have. On somethings the quality is not that great (breaker bars for example), but others are just fine. They are not Snap-on tools and I dont expect them to be.

 

[route246]

I still have a mental block with anything from HF. I guess if they improve quality I may soften. I'm softening my stance on Husky and Kobalt (hand tools, not sockets or ratchets yet), mainly because there are plenty of Lowes and HD in my area where I could get warranty replacements. I don't mind made in China if the quality is OK (mainly fit and finish, precision in machining, etc.) for many tools but prefer made in Europe or USA if there is a choice.

 

[HuskerMedic]

I was strictly a Craftsman guy until about 15 years ago. I have a rollaway in the garage with a pretty complete set of Craftsman stuff; much of it was given to me as gifts when I was still in my teens (I'm mid-40's now). I don't wrench for a living but have been known to tackle some fairly complex shadetree jobs. The only thing about Craftsman I've never been fond of is their wratchets; I've got one 3/8" drive I know I've rebuilt at least three times (and this is with fairly light useage).

About 15 years ago, I was living in a smaller city when Sears shuttered their company store and a franchise store popped up in it's place. After buying my first car new enough to have metric fasteners, I popped into the franchise store to purchase a set of metric, 3/8" drive deep well sockets for a project I was working on that day. The store was loaded with T.V.'s, vacuum cleaners, and appliances, but their tool aisle was pathetic. When I couldn't find what I was after, I asked the teenage girl behind the register. She handed me a catalog and said they didn't carry what I needed but could order it. Needless to say, I wasn't impressed; after all, this wasn't some exotic specialty tool I was after. I subsequently have not purchased a single Craftsman tool since then (although I did get some Craftsman gear wrenches as a gift a couple of year ago for Christmas).

After leaving Sears dissappointed, I swung by my local Ace Hardware store. They had what I needed, hanging on the shelf, one more socket than the Craftsman set, and including the socket rail, in the store brand. They are also advertised as lifetime guaranteed, although I have not had to use the guarantee, yet. For the next multiple years, any new tool needs I had went to Ace Hardware. Recently, though, I've found their prices on their good tools have begun to rival Craftsman.

Over about the past year or so, I started to notice a need to have tools readily available in the back of my truck. This same truck sits outside overnight at my regular job, and theft/loss is a real possibility. I decided I didn't want to risk my "good" tools.

Harbor Freight opened a store about a five minute drive from me a couple of years ago. I went and cruised the aisles, and liked what I saw. My birthday was coming up and my family always complains that I'm tough to buy for, so I went online and made out a wishlist for Harbor Freight that I distributed amongst them.

All the Harbor Freight stuff was purchased either on sale or using the 20% off coupons. I figure there is only about $100 bucks and change ******* in what I have, and it's a pretty complete set that should be more than adequate for my occasional, non-professional needs. If I had purchased the same set at Sears, I'm sure it would have set me back three times that. Off of a tool truck...I don't even want to think about what it would've cost.

The fit and finish of the Harbor Freight stuff appear as good as any of my Craftsman. The Harbor Freight stuff hasn't seen much use, yet (summer is my busy season) but I don't anticipate any problems with my useage pattern. The clerks at Harbor Freight were also quick to point out anytime I was purchasing hand tools that they are lifetime guaranteed.

In summary, I would say that Harbor Freight is a pretty good compromise between price and quality. If I was bending wrenches for a living-no. But for my homeowner, shadetree purposes-yes.

 

[Boiler]

I think you've been adequately answered here, and I agree with most about Craftsman. For years they were #1 in tools in my homeowner mind. I bought most of what I needed 15 years ago and now I look at that same stuff and it doesn't seem as nice. Basically lots of people liked craftsman for years, and they resent that Craftsman is / has to lower their standards to compete with the harbor freights of the world.